National Minimum Wage

Debate between Alec Shelbrooke and Robert Halfon

Wednesday 15th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Alec Shelbrooke]

The Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister made it perfectly clear in their speeches that there would be more reductions in certain areas of public spending. We are looking at a 0.3% further reduction, which can be found. The point that the Opposition do not understand is that if we grow an economy by building on solid foundations, we end up with a growth rate that far outstrips those of the EU or the USA. More importantly, this is in stark contrast to the economy of France, whose policies the Opposition were telling us only three years ago we should be adopting. Their plan B was to follow the French President’s economic proposals, yet that country’s economy is now collapsing round its ears and dragging a lot of the EU down with it. This is simple: we must grow the economy healthily, and the hard-working people of this country who help to grow the economy do not deserve to come home after a day’s work to discover that the Government are taking more of their money. We need to ensure that increases in the minimum wage do not simply involve people doing more work for the same money.

The living wage is an important development. I have gone on record in this Chamber as saying that I do not support a statutory living wage. If we try to chase a living wage simply by upping wages by statute, we will increase inflation, thereby putting the living wage out of reach. The figure for a living wage has gone up since we last had this debate, but the way to reach it is to grow the minimum wage by cutting taxes on business and growing the economy. We cannot do it by imposing stealth taxes on business. We should be saying to employers, “Don’t give the money to the Government so that we can do all the things we want to do. Instead, give it directly to the people who are creating the wealth.” That is a policy that we should be proud of, and that everyone on these Benches will get behind. We want the highest wage figures that we can get in this country, and we want to ensure that people are not being exploited. When new phenomena such as the exploitation of zero-hours contracts are created, it is important that we legislate on them in a way that still allows flexibility for people who are trying to put together a living.

I am worried that Opposition day debates are often simply about electioneering. That is the wrong thing to do in this Chamber. The Opposition have talked about taking things seriously and being the party that truly represents the lowest-paid workers in society, but I must remind the House that they opposed my ten-minute rule Bill to outlaw unpaid internships. The Division was called by Opposition Members. I am still a strong believer that nobody in this country should work for more than four weeks without pay. Work experience has its place, but employing people for months at a time with no pay, claiming that they are gaining experience as interns, is morally wrong. That is why I introduced my Bill.

In that context, we have to look at what we are really discussing. We need to ensure that the poorest in society—those who are working at the bottom and in the most economically sustainable way—see their wages increase without having to give the money back to the Government just so that they can be grateful when the Government then give it back to them. We need to ensure that a good day’s work is properly rewarded. As we grow the economy, we need to ensure that businesses give the money to the people doing the work and not to the Government. When we discuss the minimum wage, we must ensure that we have in place a strong economy and strong policies, and that we are willing to legislate against those who abuse workers in this country. We must ensure that we represent everybody; that is what a one-nation party is all about.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. On the “Daily Politics” programme today, the shadow Education Secretary said that I had made the case for not paying disabled people the minimum wage. I have campaigned strongly for increases in the minimum wage, very much along the lines set out by my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) a moment ago, so I find that assertion quite incredible. While I have been sitting here, I have seen a text from the shadow Education Secretary acknowledging that it was not me who said that, but the problem is that millions of people will have seen what he said on television. I am a passionate supporter of the minimum wage, especially for disabled people. Mr Deputy Speaker, will you ask the shadow Education Secretary to come to the Chamber to correct what he said, and to apologise for it? Otherwise, the people who watched that programme, including my constituents, will believe that I hold those abhorrent views.

National Minimum Wage

Debate between Alec Shelbrooke and Robert Halfon

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

The hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), who opened this debate, is right about one thing: it was a mistake for my party to have opposed the minimum wage. I am glad that we support it now. If we are honest about our mistakes, the Opposition need to be honest about what went on: that it was a mistake to abolish the 10p income tax rate; that median real wages stopped rising from 2003; and that the value of the minimum wage did not decrease from 2010 but from 2008. All of us have made mistakes in these areas, and the Opposition should have welcomed the fact that we have taken 2 million lower earners out of tax altogether.

[Alec Shelbrooke]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it was also a mistake to put in petrol price rises year after year—Labour would have added the equivalent of 64p a gallon by this time—which dig directly into hard-working people’s pockets?

[Robert Halfon]

My hon. Friend is right; our party has a relentless focus on helping the lower paid. We should support the minimum wage because we are the party of aspiration and working people, and increasing the minimum wage eliminates the poverty trap, cuts the benefits bill and encourages more people to get back into work. If we do just one thing, it should be to increase the minimum wage at least to reflect the increase in inflation over the past few years.

I also urge the Government to institute a regional minimum wage—in addition to the national minimum wage, not as a substitute for it—because of the different costs of living in different parts of the country. I am talking about the differing costs not just from north to south, but within regions. That has been done in other countries, such as Canada and the United States, where individual states can set minimum wage rates above the federal minimum. We need to consider such an approach seriously.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)]

As I recently outlined, I am not in favour of a statutory living wage, but I am in favour of raising the minimum wage.

A rise in the minimum wage, as national wage growth returns, fundamentally leads to a smaller state, as has been outlined by Labour Members. Now that the Government have reduced business taxes—national insurance, corporation taxes and small business taxes—and brought in last year’s rebate, the time is right to look at how we can create a sustainable growth in the wages of the lowest-paid by giving the taxation that the Government were taking back to the people who are creating the wealth in companies. That means that the potentially inflationary pressures will not occur because the Government are not taking tax from a company just to give it back to a worker.

[Robert Halfon]

My hon. Friend talks about the Government cutting business taxes. Does he agree that they have also raised taxes for the rich by increasing capital gains tax from 18% to 28% and increasing to 45p the 40p rate that existed in the 13 years under Labour?

[Alec Shelbrooke]

My hon. Friend puts it most eloquently, as always.

This is an uncomfortable truth for Labour Members. [Interruption.] They have been yelling and shouting this afternoon, and they are at it again now as soon as they do not want to hear an inconvenient truth. The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) put forward the false premise that Government Members are saying we should increase wages for the people at the top and cut them for those at the bottom—no Government Member has ever made such a comment; it was a disgraceful thing to say—but failed to mention that under his party’s Government, the noble Lord Mandelson said that he was perfectly comfortable with people getting “filthy rich”.

Trade Union Funding

Debate between Alec Shelbrooke and Robert Halfon

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Robert Halfon]

Yes, I accept exactly what my hon. Friend says; I am all in favour of transparency. However, TUC membership now stands at 58 unions, representing 6.5 million people—more than the population of Scotland. Of those 58 unions, just 15 are affiliated to Labour, leaving 43 that are non-affiliated. In addition, there are huge numbers of small staff associations. My point is that those 6.5 million are a complex network of people, and the vast majority of them will be moderate Britons, in all sectors of the economy, from all walks of life, and not militant activists.

I am proud that our party has a long history of co-operation with the trade unions, beginning in 1867, before the Labour party even existed. It was the Conservative Prime Minister the Earl of Derby who first sought to legalise trade unions in 1867. He said in the House of Lords at the time that

“the voices of Manchester, of Birmingham, of Leeds, and of all the other important centres of manufacturing industry were absolutely unheard.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 22 July 1867; Vol. 188, c. 1775.]

He praised a trade union march in London, insisting to a hostile Liberal Opposition that the process was entirely legal.

I say these things not because I am not a proud Conservative: I come from the Thatcherite wing of the party, but even Mrs Thatcher was an active trade unionist. In 1950, she was elected president of the Dartford branch of one of the first organisations that she ever joined, the Conservative Trade Unionists. One of her first engagements as Leader of the Opposition was to address the CTU. She told them in 1975—it is well worth hearing this quotation—that

“the law should not only permit, but…it should assist, the trades unions to carry out their legitimate function of protecting their members.”

We all remember Mrs Thatcher for the wars against Arthur Scargill and so on, but she was supportive of trade union members and grass roots, although she was against militants. I am a firm Thatcherite on trade union reform.

[Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)]

To add to my hon. Friend’s comments about Mrs Thatcher, I remember that Norman Tebbit was very much a trade unionist within the aircraft industry and, indeed, led strikes.

[Robert Halfon]

My hon. Friend proves my point. In 1979, during the general election, trade union members held a mass rally at Wembley stadium under the banner “Trade unions for a Conservative victory”. That is the kind of future that I hope our Government will aspire to.

My conclusion is that we need to support the moderate majority of trade union members, most of whom are not political activists. In politics, language is everything. We should not be afraid to support grass-roots trade union members, to encourage people to join trade unions and—dare I say it?—to have, perhaps, the occasional beer and sandwich. We often discuss facility time, and, yes, we need to crack down where it is abused and say that it should not be used for party political activity. Nevertheless, some facility time is good. A local employer in my constituency, the bus company Arriva, says that facility time is incredibly beneficial. The politically neutral First Division Association, which has 20,000 members, uses facility time to relocate the families of civil servants who are serving overseas. While we crack down on the abuses, we should recognise that not all facility time is bad.

Whatever reform is pursued, our focus must be on what is right for union members. It may be worth returning to the original opt-in position for political levies, which was the status quo until 1945.

Finally, I will quote Richard Balfe, the former Labour MEP who came over to the Conservatives. He said:

“British politics has changed enormously in recent years. Labour has become a rich persons’ party and the Conservatives are reaching out to groups that in the past would not have been natural allies. We do not expect to convert the leadership of the trade union movement, but we do offer respect for the achievements of the movement and the possibility of a mutually beneficial dialogue.”

I say to the Government and my hon. Friends that, despite the rhetoric, let us not walk into the elephant trap set for us by Len McCluskey, Bob Crow and others.