Albert Owen
Main Page: Albert Owen (Labour - Ynys Môn)Department Debates - View all Albert Owen's debates with the Cabinet Office
(8 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Prime Minister
Let me turn to the important questions, and I will take interventions as I go through them.
First, could acting increase the risk to our security? That is one of the most important questions that we have to answer. Privy Counsellors across the House have had a briefing from the Chair of the independent Joint Intelligence Committee. Obviously, I cannot share all the classified material, but I can say this: Paris was different not just because it was so close to us or because it was so horrific in scale, but because it showed the extent of terror planning from Daesh in Syria and the approach of sending people back from Syria to Europe. This was the head of the snake in Raqqa in action, so it is not surprising that the judgment of the Chair of the Joint Intelligence Committee and of the director general of the Security Service is that the risk of a similar attack in the UK is real, and that the UK is already in the top tier of countries on ISIL’s target list.
The Prime Minister
I want to make this point and then I will take some more interventions.
If there is an attack on the UK in the coming weeks or months, there will be those who try to say that it has happened because of our airstrikes. I do not believe that that will be the case. Daesh has been trying to attack us for the past year, as we know from the seven different plots that our security services have foiled. In the light of that threat from Daesh, the terrorist threat to the UK was raised to severe last August, which means that an attack is highly likely.
The Prime Minister
Everyone in this House can speak for themselves. What I am saying is that, when it comes to the risks of military action, the risks of inaction are far greater than the risks of what I propose.
Next there are those who ask whether Britain conducting strikes in Syria will really make a difference.
The Prime Minister
Let me make my argument, and then I will take the hon. Gentleman’s question.
This point has been raised in briefing after briefing. I believe that we can make a real difference. I told the House last week about our dynamic targeting, our Brimstone missiles, the Raptor pod on our Tornadoes and the intelligence-gathering work of our Reaper drones. I will not repeat all that today, but there is another way of putting this, which is equally powerful. There is a lot of strike capacity in the coalition, but when it comes to precision-strike capability whether covering Iraq or Syria, let me say this: last week, the whole international coalition had some 26 aircraft available, eight of which were British Tornadoes. Typically, the UK actually represents between a quarter and a third of the international coalition’s precision bombing capability. We also have about a quarter of the unmanned strike capability flying in the region. Therefore, we have a significant proportion of high-precision strike capability, which is why this decision is so important.
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman has been very persistent, so I will give way.
Albert Owen
The Prime Minister is right to sing the praises of the RAF pilots. The son of my constituent, Mike Poole, was tragically killed in a Tornado, in 2012, while training for the RAF. Mike Poole has specifically asked me this question: does the Air Force have coalition warning systems to deal with the crowded airspace in northern Iraq and in Syria, if we make that decision today? Such a system is absolutely essential for the safety of our pilots.
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to raise this issue, and I pay tribute to his constituent’s son. We will be part of the de-confliction process that already exists between those coalition partners flying in Syria and the Russians. Of course, our own aeroplanes have the most advanced defensive air suites possible to make sure that they are kept safe. The argument that I was making is one reason why members of the international coalition, including President Obama and President Hollande, who made these points to me personally, believe that British planes would make a real difference in Syria, just as they are already doing in Iraq.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
I begin by paying tribute to the RAF and its men and women, many of whom will have done their training in my constituency. They are part of my community. Many of those who are posted to RAF Valley stay in the community. They are a source of advice to me. They are measured and do not always, as the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) said, think as one. They think as individuals and I have listened to what many of them have had to say over the past few weeks.
I listened also to the Prime Minister last Thursday and agreed with a lot of what he said. However, I do not think that he had a coherent plan for the action that he is asking us to take tonight. I believe that it is flawed on the grounds that we do not have sufficient ground forces. I did not come to that decision lightly. I listened when we debated taking action in Iraq and I supported it then because the Prime Minister convinced us that the very reason we were taking that action was that there were solid troops on the ground and a solid Government. We do not have those things in Syria. Those who say that it is just the same and there is an artificial boundary should listen to what the Prime Minister has said.
I will quote the Prime Minister, but unlike you, Mr Speaker, when you were on these Benches, I have to read the column because I do not have your memory. In column 1257 on 26 September 2014, in an answer to the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), who suggested that airstrikes without ground forces would be just gesture politics, the Prime Minister said:
“To be absolutely direct, I am not claiming that by air strikes alone we can roll back this problem. What this problem requires is a comprehensive strategy, including a well formed Iraqi Government and well formed Iraqi armed forces, because they in the end will be the ones who have to defeat this on the ground.”—[Official Report, 26 September 2014; Vol. 585, c. 1257.]
The lack of that in Syria makes it unfortunate and wrong for us to proceed with the proposed action, and for that reason I will not support the Government motion. I believe in consistency, and the Prime Minister is not being consistent, given his arguments at that time and what he is saying today. External factors have changed, but practical ability on the ground has not.
Let me ask the Foreign Secretary a direct question. I intervened on the Prime Minister early in the debate, but I believe that the Foreign Secretary can answer this question directly. My constituent’s son was killed in an accident as a trainee pilot in 2012. His father has asked me to ask the Government whether all the Tornadoes and Typhoons now in Iraq will have a collision warning system. When we are sending people to war, it is important that they have the correct kit, and we have argued for that for years.
I wanted to hear the Prime Minister come up with something today—perhaps a move towards a UN resolution that includes chapter 7 status. That does not exist today, and I therefore do not think that there is a comprehensive strategy. I voted for action in Libya, and I am certainly not a pacifist. I did not vote on Iraq because I did not think the case had been made, but my colleague, Peter Kilfoyle, tabled that motion, and he is no woolly liberal.