Devolution and the Union

Alan Reid Excerpts

Thursday 20th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

I congratulate those hon. Members who secured this important debate today.

Just two months ago, the Scottish people voted decisively in favour of remaining within the United Kingdom. Following that decisive vote, the Government kept their promises and moved quickly to set up the Smith commission to convene cross-party talks and an engagement process across Scotland. The timetable agreed by both the Government and the Opposition involves the Smith commission reporting at the end of next week, draft legislation to implement their findings to be published by 25 January and that legislation being passed in the early stages of the next Parliament. That is the timetable that was promised by the leaders of the three main parties in the run-up to polling day in the referendum, and it is essential that it is adhered to.

So far, the timetable has been adhered to. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State published a Command Paper before the end of October; in fact it was a couple of weeks early. The Smith commission is working, and there is every indication that it will publish its proposals, as planned, by the end of next week, and I assume the rest of the timetable will also be adhered to.

Of course constitutional change must be fair to the whole of the United Kingdom, and I am sure that in the coming years we will see further progress on devolution for the other nations and regions of the United Kingdom, but further powers for the Scottish Parliament must not be held up while those debates take place in the other parts of the UK.

[Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman also note that all of the party leaders said in the vow that the Barnett formula should continue?

[Mr Reid]

The hon. Lady is perfectly correct. That was a vow that was made by the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, and I would expect that vow to be kept.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

If the vow was that the Barnett formula should continue, so be it, but that does not mean it should not be modified.

[Mr Reid]

The vow that was made in the run-up to the referendum—just before polling day—was that the Barnett formula would continue. I think any reasonable person would interpret that as meaning it would continue as it is. I note that the hon. Gentleman’s party leader made that promise in the run-up to the referendum. I assume that his party leader went through the policy-making procedures of his own party before he made that promise. [Interruption.] As an outsider, I have always assumed that the policy-making procedures of the Conservative party were that the leader made policy. None the less, the hon. Gentleman is a member of the Conservative party, and his leader made that promise and I would expect the party to adhere to the promise made by its leader.

[Mr Raab]

May I ask the hon. Gentleman what happened to the promise made by the leader of his party and every Lib Dem candidate in the 2010 election to change the Barnett formula to a needs-based formula?

[Mr Reid]

The coalition agreement has been adhered to. At my party’s conference in October—it is usually in September, but the SNP chose a date that falls during our conference for the referendum—we passed a motion that the Barnett formula would be continued. The hon. Gentleman is correct that we had a different policy in the past, but we have a democratic policy-making process in our party, and the party, through its democratic policy-making processes at our annual conference, has voted that the Barnett formula should continue.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

That is all right then.

[Mr Reid]

Yes, it is all right. That is a point on which we agree, but it is about the only one.

Where I do agree with the movers of the motion is that the West Lothian question must be addressed. There is clearly an unfairness that I, as a Scottish MP, can vote on health, education and other matters as they affect England, but not in my own constituency. Clearly, that must be addressed. The only way to do that is to set up a federal system for the United Kingdom.

[Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Reid]

Let me just finish this point. Any solution that involves removing the ability of MPs outside England to vote on English matters will inevitably lead to a situation in some future Parliament in which a Government would not be able to get its English business through the House. We have all seen what happens when there is gridlock in the US, and I hope that we would not want such a situation to arise here. But that is exactly what will happen at some point if the only change that was made was to stop Members from outside England voting on English-only matters, but not changing any other part of the constitution. Setting up a federal system for the UK is the way to resolve that issue.

[Mr Roy]

For that change to take place, does the hon. Gentleman agree that a constitutional convention should be set up to look at not just Scotland or any other region but the whole of the United Kingdom, and the way that it is governed? If there were such a chance to vote on a constitutional convention, how would he vote?

[Mr Reid]

I certainly agree that a constitutional convention is a good idea, but it must not hold up the present process of devolving further powers to the Scottish Parliament. The present Smith commission process must go forward, but a constitutional convention to look at the whole UK is certainly a good idea.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman made the point that we must consider Scottish MPs voting on issues such as the English health service, but does he not see the contradiction in relation to Barnett? Any increases to the English health service and any increases in finances mean that there is a consequential effect through Barnett to Scotland, so those issues have to be analysed as well.

[Mr Reid]

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. Legislation does not of itself lead to more spending. We allocate spending when we pass the estimates every year. Although legislation may mean that carrying out certain functions costs more money, the decisions on spending are made only when we pass the estimates. Certainly when we pass the estimates for the English health service, there is a knock-on effect for Scotland. It is perfectly in order for Members of Parliament representing constituencies outside England to vote on those issues, but legislation purely for the English health service could be left to the English representatives. But the only way that that can happen in practice is if we set up a federal United Kingdom with an English Parliament. If Members cannot vote on some issues in this Parliament, it will lead to a situation in which a Government cannot get their policies through.

[Naomi Long]

rose—

[Mr Reid]

The hon. Lady must be brief because I am running out of time.

[Naomi Long]

I will be brief. Welfare reform has a massive impact on Northern Ireland, yet the devolved powers that we have are technical only, and we cannot deviate from parity and still be able to afford it. So will he not accept that there is an issue?

[Mr Reid]

Clearly, there is an issue that affects Northern Ireland. It is responsible for a great deal of spending, but has no tax-raising powers by itself. I am not in favour of devolving welfare to Scotland, but it is already devolved to Northern Ireland. Perhaps the Northern Ireland experience is an indication of why it is not a good idea to devolve welfare.

Where I part company from the movers of the motion is that I think there is no need to hold up the Smith commission process in order to have a review of the whole UK. On the eve of the referendum, the leadership of the three main parties made a vow, and it is essential that that vow is adhered to; what was promised must be delivered.