Found: Mr Adam Price 1R 2007–0819 Nov 2007Content of Parliamentary Report inappropriate for a Communications

Found: t the position that has emerged during our Committee yesterday following correspondence from Adam Price

Found: Q162 Chair: I have a request from solicitors in England and Adam Price at the Senedd in Wales to look

Found: I want to ask you about your co- operation and agreement with Plaid and Adam Price, who of course does

Found: Adam Price, the leader of Plaid, said that the party does not support nuclear, and that nuclear is not

Found: I remember you did one on S4C talking about how Adam Price, the leader of Plaid Cymru, does not support

Found: Adam Price has said that fiWe are a party that doesn™t believe in nuclear.

Found: The leader of Plaid, Adam Price, says that they are a party that does not believe in nuclear. fiWe do

Found: On 4 July 2022, First Minister Mark Drakeford and the leader of Plaid Cymru Adam Price set out the next

Found: See Plaid Cymru leader Adam Price declines invite to attend the King Charles coronation , WalesOnline

Found: republicanism event ahead of coronation , The National, 19 April 2023. 204 Plaid Cymru leader Adam Price

Found: Teacher misconduct panel outcome: Mr Adam Price

Found: Teacher misconduct panel outcome: Mr Adam Price

Found: member Direct - Non-financial professional and personal interests Steering group member for Dr Adam Price

Found: member Direct - Non-financial professional and personal interests Steering group member for Dr Adam Price

Found: member Direct - Non-financial professional and personal interests Steering group member for Dr Adam Price

Found: Parretti GP Direct non -financial, professional and personal Steering group member for Dr Adam Price

Found: SCM Direct - Non-financial professional and personal interests Steering group member for Dr Adam Price

Found: Adam Price 28 Section 1, page 3, line 36, after ‘legislation’, insert ‘, or provision of subordinate

Found: Having considered all amendments tabled, I have determined that amendment 34, tabled by Adam Price

Found: Cyhoeddi a Diddymiadau) (Cymru) Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Bill Adam Price

Found: Adam Price MS was at the protest and gave an interview to S4C.

Found: Ymweliad/Visit St Davids Day Visit 2024-03-04 00:00:00 Cyfarfod/Meeting Infrastructure Bill with Adam Price

Found: Visit 2022-04-28 00:00:00 Cyfarfod/Meeting BBC Board Visit 2022-05-03 00:00:00 Cyfarfod/Meeting Adam Price

Found: Conference 2022-01-07 00:00:00 Cyfweliad/Interview Interview 2022-01-11 00:00:00 Cyfarfod/Meeting Adam Price

Found: 2024-12-09 00:00:00 Cyfarfod/Meeting General Medical Council 2024-12-09 00:00:00 Cyfarfod/Meeting Adam Price

Found: Showcase 2021-12-07 00:00:00 Cyfarfod/Meeting Altaf Hussain MS 2021-12-07 00:00:00 Cyfarfod/Meeting Adam Price

Found: However, responses to written questions tabled by Darren Millar MS, Adam Price MS and Andrew RT Davies

<p>I thank Mick Antoniw very much for that and echoing some of the points that Adam Price made earlier. I think the Gordon Brown report has a three-stranded answer to the Member's question. It does refer to the need for a fair funding formula, and we've rehearsed that extensively this afternoon, but beyond the formula itself, you need to have that formula entrenched in two ways. First of all, it needs parliamentary oversight, both at the UK Parliament but in the other Parliaments of the United Kingdom. And then, it needs a way of being justiciable. The problem with a formula and a convention is that when attempts were made to go to the Supreme Court to have the Sewel convention looked at, the courts concluded that there was nothing that the courts could do, because this was merely a convention despite the fact that it had been honoured for 20 years. So, what Gordon Brown says in his report is: reform of the formula, proper parliamentary oversight of it and a legally binding part of it, which means that if you believe that things have not been done properly, you have recourse to independent redress, rather than it simply being in the hands of the people who made the decision in the first place.</p>

<p>Croeso, bawb, i'r cyfarfod hwn o'r&nbsp;Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol. Dŷn ni hefyd yn estyn croeso i Hannah Blythyn, o Bwyllgor yr Economi, Masnach a Materion Gwledig, i Mike Hedges ac Adam Price, o'r&nbsp;Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a'r Cyfansoddiad, ac i Llyr Huws Gruffydd, o'r Pwyllgor Newid Hinsawdd, yr Amgylchedd a Seilwaith. Mae croeso mawr i chi gyd. Dŷn ni wedi derbyn ymddiheuriadau gan Andrew R.T. Davies a Lee Waters, a bydd Mick Antoniw yn ymuno gyda ni nes ymlaen.</p>

<p>Okay. Could I check finally—? I'll bring Adam in, actually. Adam Price.</p>

<p>Thank you to Adam Price for a number of important points there. The proposals that we put forward in 'Reforming our Union' would not only have created a new rules-based system, with the transparency that that would bring, but also would have created a new independent oversight body, because we cannot, I believe, go on indefinitely having the Treasury the judge, the jury and, occasionally, the executioner, when it comes to the Barnett formula. We saw that in the £1 billion bung, as it was called, that went in order to secure the support of the DUP&nbsp;&nbsp;to the minority administration led by Theresa May. Neither England, Scotland nor Wales had anything the equivalent, as the Barnett formula itself would have otherwise required. So, we do need something that is a good deal more transparent, rules based and independent than we have now.</p>
<p>I’m told by our colleagues in the Treasury that they do hope to publish a block grant transparency report before too long. And I should say that, in the FISC meeting, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury did offer to codify some of the improvements that we’ve seen in the way that the Treasury has behaved in relation to the devolved Governments since July of last year. We’ve had earlier information, we’ve had better information, and the Chief Secretary has offered to make that a permanent part of the way that he conducts his office. So, I’m pleased about that.</p>
<p>As far as invoking the disputes mechanism is concerned, it has been invoked by the Northern Ireland Executive, not on this matter, but on another matter. And, just at the moment, I am watching how that dispute is being taken through the disputes mechanism, and I’ll watch that carefully to see whether that provides a route that we might wish to follow in those places where we think Wales has not been properly served by current arrangements. But I’m not at that point just yet.</p>

<p>That takes us on to item 2, the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Bill, Stage 2.&nbsp;Our first substantive item today is Stage 2 proceedings on the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Bill.&nbsp;I welcome&nbsp;Julie James MS, Counsel General and Member in charge of the Bill, and&nbsp;Claire Fife, policy adviser to the Counsel General and head of the legislative codes office, Welsh Government.&nbsp;In relation to this item, Members should have before them the marshalled list of amendments and the groupings of amendments for debate. We also have correspondence from Adam Price MS and from the Open Spaces Society included within our papers.&nbsp;</p>
<p>The marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments that have been tabled, marshalled into the order of consideration we agreed on 17 March.&nbsp;You will see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate, but the order in which they are called and moved for a decision is dictated by the marshalled list.&nbsp;Members will need to follow the two papers, although I will advise Members, when I call them, whether they are being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision.&nbsp;There will be one debate on each group of amendments.&nbsp;Members who wish to speak in a particular group should indicate this in the usual way.&nbsp;I will call the Counsel General to speak on each group. In accordance with the established convention, as Chair, I will move amendments in the name of the Counsel General. For expediency, I will assume that the Counsel General wishes me to move all her amendments and I will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list. I see a 'yes' from the Counsel General there. Counsel General, if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved, please indicate this at the relevant point in proceedings.&nbsp;</p>
<p>Amendment 1, in group 8, has been tabled by Paul Davies. I understand that Laura Anne Jones will move and speak to this amendment. In line with our usual practice, legal advisers to the committee and the Counsel General are not expected to provide advice on the record. If Members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings, please do so by passing a note to the legal adviser.</p>

<p>That takes us on to group 1,&nbsp;approval of draft Welsh statutory instruments subject to specified amendments—amendment 23. The first group of amendments relates to the approval of draft Welsh statutory instruments subject to specified amendments.&nbsp;The lead and only amendment in this group is amendment 23. I call on Adam Price to move and speak to the amendment.</p>

<p>Amendment 23 (Adam Price) moved.</p>

<p>Yes. I'm grateful to Adam Price for the way he's introduced this amendment and the way in which he's approached the amendments in his name in this process. I think it's a very useful exercise to have this conversation, and it's a conversation the committee has already started, of course. I think, in principle, I have no issue with the points that Adam makes. I think we need to look towards a much wider view of how we legislate at the moment. We've seen a number of different themes emerge, if you like, during this current Senedd. We've seen Bills that are, by their nature, more framework Bills than perhaps we would have anticipated, and we've seen far more statutory instruments coming forward as a consequence of that. Now, I have no view on whether that's a good or a bad thing, but we do need to look at how we conduct the legislative process in Wales. This committee, or a previous committee, undertook a review—I think it was about a decade&nbsp;or so ago now—with Daniel Greenberg as a special adviser, I remember, and it seems to me that the committee, or perhaps the equivalent committee in the next Senedd, should make a review of our legislative process a priority, with a view on the amendment of statutory instruments as a key part of that. I understand that the Business Committee is looking into these matters at the moment, and I understand that the Government is reticent to accept these amendments at this point in time. But I also appreciate—and I think the Counsel General said this in further evidence—that there is no principled opposition here from the Welsh Government, but we're looking at how there is an agreed process to take these matters forward. So, I look forward to the comments from the Counsel General to this, but I think the lesson, if you like, is that the Government and the Senedd need to take a wider look at how we legislate, the legislative process in its totality, and then I'm sure the Government, or perhaps the next Government, of whatever colour that might be, would be prepared to bring forward legislation to give life to the conclusions of that review.</p>

<p>I now take us on to group 2. The second group of amendments relates to the partial annulment of subordinate legislation made by Welsh statutory instrument. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 24. I call on Adam Price to move and speak to the lead amendment, and all his other amendments in this group. Adam.</p>

<p>Amendment 24 (Adam Price) moved.</p>

<p>We now move on to group 3, amendments relating to the administrative correction of minor errors in Welsh statutory instruments. The lead and only amendment in this group is amendment 33. I call on Adam Price to move and speak to the amendment.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Amendment 33 (Adam Price) moved.</p>

<p>I'd be interested to hear the Government's argument on this, because it seems to me there is no argument from the Government on this point of view. The Government does not support the amendment, but has said, and I think the Counsel General has made clear, that there is no practical difference between the situation that has been described by Adam Price and the situation as described in the current Bill. So, if there is no practical difference, there can be no administrative or cost difference either, and there can be no political or legal reason&nbsp;why Wales shouldn't exist on the same basis in these terms as Scotland and Northern Ireland. It appears to me that the Government's position on this is quite difficult, to say the least.</p>

<p>The fifth group relates to the King’s Printer for Wales.&nbsp;The lead and only amendment in this group is amendment 34. I call on Adam Price to move and speak to the amendment.</p>

<p>Amendment 34 (Adam Price) moved.</p>

<p>That takes us on to group 7.&nbsp;The seventh group of amendments relates to reporting on the correction of Welsh statutory instruments.&nbsp;The lead and only amendment in this group is amendment 35. I call on Adam Price to move and speak to the amendment.</p>

<p>Amendment 35 (Adam Price) moved.</p>

<p>Diolch, Cadeirydd. I'm grateful to both Laura Anne Jones and Adam Price for setting out the intentions behind the respective amendments. It's clear that both Members are seeking to ensure that the purpose of the Bill or the amendments it makes to the 2019 Act are working in practice as intended. I absolutely agree&nbsp;it's important that when legislation is made that its value and effect are kept under review, and given that one of the things this Bill does is repeal provisions that are no longer of practical utility or benefit, it's no surprise that that's what I think, I think.</p>
<p>I'll turn to Adam's amendment in a moment, but I understand from the points made by Laura Anne that the intention is that a review would consider how Parts 2A and 2B in particular are working. And whilst I acknowledge that builds on my response to recommendation 2 of the committee report, the amendment itself doesn't quite achieve that. The amendment would require another full review of the whole 2019 Act, and I'm afraid I don't see the value in that, but the amendment also seeks the review of the format of Welsh statutory instruments. The format of those is not set by either this Bill or the 2019 Act, as it will be amended.</p>
<p>But I can update Members that a decision on the format of the Welsh statutory instruments needs to be taken in the next month or so, and that's necessary to enable the National Archives to deal with the move to a single-column print publication, alongside the other changes they need to make for the coming into force of Parts 2A and 2B on 1 January 2026. And it will also form part of their work to move drafters of Welsh subordinate legislation onto new drafting software. So, making the change now will minimise the cost of changing the registration and publication systems within the National Archives and for the publication concessionaire, but also potentially for the Welsh Government, and longer term should result in important cost savings for the Government and the King's Printer and his teams. So, my officials are already in discussion with the National Archives about this and are approaching the Welsh Language Commissioner for a meeting, if she would wish to be involved. And I note this amendment seeks consultation on the wider review with the commissioner, but I think the intention is that, really, that consultation is about the format of instruments. So, I hope my commitment to engage with the commissioner satisfies that element.</p>
<p>Looking at Adam's amendment, I explained at Stage 1 that this Bill is merely a vehicle to amend other legislation. So, once the Act makes those amendments, it's finished. Its purpose is done. So, I think a review of this Bill doesn't deliver anything, and we don't need to wait a year to be able to say, 'It's done', because it will be done as it's passed. But I think what we're really looking at is how the 2019 Act as amended works. I think I'm right in saying that.</p>
<p>So, I think post-legislative review is an important part of the process, and I hope the future larger Senedd will look at a number of things that could improve scrutiny. I think routine post-legislative review is absolutely one, and we should think that—. I think we should look at what the New Zealand Parliament, as a unicameral legislature, does to bring in independent expert views on the technical aspects of legislation. They have a standing technical group that looks at all of those things as well, and I think that's something I'm really interested in exploring. I think that would really help, particularly given the lack of commentariat in Wales. We don't have a standard one, so we sort of need to invent it for ourselves, and that's very much what New Zealand has done, and I'm very interested in that.</p>
<p>So, I'd really like to work with both Adam and you, Laura, in Paul's name, to enable a suitable amendment to the Bill to be brought forward. I think it's very important that we establish whether the codification and modernisation of Senedd procedures has worked as we anticipate, and given what has been discussed today regarding the King's Printer, I think we should ensure the review includes the new Part 2B. So, on that basis, the Government would look to work with both Members on a new amendment to be considered at Stage 3. So, I hope that that means we're not looking at amendments 1 and 36, but even if we are, I would want to bring forward a new one.</p>
<p>And as this is my last opportunity to speak in today's proceedings, Chair, I'd just like to cover a few other matters, with your indulgence. Under Standing Orders, as the Bill has been amended at this Stage, a revised explanatory memorandum will be prepared, reflecting the changes. I wanted the committee to be aware that we will also take the opportunity to update the detail on expenditure on statutory instruments to include the financial year 2024-25. It doesn't change the basis on which the regulatory impact assessment is prepared, but it will ensure the most up-to-date information is available to the Senedd and in the public domain.</p>
<p>I really wanted to give my heartfelt thanks to all Members for their careful and detailed deliberations, in particular the time and effort Adam has given to bringing forward the amendments. I think we can all agree it prompted us to consider new, better ways to make and scrutinise legislation. I think we're all dedicated to improving the accessibility of Welsh law, and it's a long-term ongoing endeavour, and this ensures that progress continues to be made, and we continue to move towards a statute book that is fit for the people of Wales. Diolch.</p>

<p>Amendment 36 (Adam Price) not moved.</p>

<p>Okay. Adam Price, can I bring you back in on spending?</p>

<p>I'm glad you're getting there. I was doing that with my staff 30 years ago. Adam Price.</p>

<p>We will move now to the short debate, and this afternoon's short debate is to be introduced by Adam Price.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Firstly, I'd like to thank Adam Price for tabling this short debate today on what is a hugely important, exciting and creative topic. I'd also like to thank him for presenting such a clear picture of the potential in the western Valleys when it comes to rail connectivity.</p>
<p>I do believe that we have a very strong record in Government in intervening in post-industrial communities, especially when it comes to public transport. It was the Welsh Government, after all, who stepped up to reopen the Ebbw Vale line after the steelworks closed. And it's thanks to our funding that particular project that the line was extended right through the site of the old steelworks, right into the heart of the community. And it's further funding from Welsh Government, actually, that's now led to doubling the frequency of services on the line, connecting Ebbw Vale directly to Newport for the first time since the 1960s.</p>
<p>Now, I think it's fair to say that the best demonstration of all, though, of our commitment to post-industrial communities and the investment that is available for public transport does—</p>

<p>Well,&nbsp;it's very much in our minds, but as we've heard today there are competing calls for investment in all regions of Wales, and that's why it's important that we prioritise based on deliverability, affordability and also demand, and the need to be able to access public transport where it currently doesn't exist. But it is certainly in our minds.</p>
<p>In the core Valleys lines, as Adam Price has identified, we're investing more than £1 billion in the transformation of the CVL, and brand new electric trains are now running on our core Valleys lines network. That, of course, is a result of the Welsh Government's investment of £800 million in new trains. Passengers using them, of course, in the south Wales Valleys can now make use as well of cheap convenient tickets thanks to the introduction of pay as you go. I believe that, so far, 150,000 passengers have taken advantage of this right across the 95 stations that constitute the south-east Wales metro.</p>
<p>And that's the cornerstone of our vision: making sure that we deliver metro-type rail services for post-industrial communities, making public transport affordable, integrated and available across the whole of Wales. It's the vision that will deliver in north Wales a metro-type system, and also one in Swansea bay and the western Valleys.</p>
<p>Can I thank Adam Price also for your particular mention of the global centre of rail excellence? I do believe this is a hugely important magnet project for the western Valleys. It was something that I thought up on a train journey in Spain with Welsh Government officials, but I do believe that this has potential to be a magnet for employment and investment.</p>
<p>In north Wales, we need to undertake numerous infrastructure projects, and they include removing the capacity backlog at Chester. There is a huge capacity block at Chester that needs to be dealt with. We need to also see improvements on the Wrexham to Bidston line to allow for higher frequency services, and ultimately direct services of a metro type between Wrexham and Liverpool. Carolyn Thomas identified post-industrial challenges that face much of north Wales, particularly in the north-east of Wales, where the likes of the Shotton steelworks closure led to an unprecedented number of people losing their jobs in the 1980s, and still that particular area bears the scars of the loss of huge numbers of jobs. I'm very grateful for the passion that Carolyn Thomas brings to championing the importance of public transport, not just in the region she represents, but the whole of Wales.</p>
<p>Now, in the Swansea bay and west Wales region, Transport for Wales, as I know many Members are aware, are carrying out development work on potential new stations on the south Wales main line at Cockett, Winch Wen and Landore, and on the Swansea district line, as Adam Price has identified, at Pontlliw, Felindre, Morriston and Llandarcy.</p>
<p>I think Luke Fletcher made a hugely important point about alternative and emerging technologies. Trackless autonomous trams are an example of these this new tech. They're already being rolled out in China and in Canada, and they are the latest example of technology that we must be alert to, because we could use different types of interventions across different communities in Wales.</p>
<p>Bus use amounts to three quarters of all public transport journeys, and they are an absolute lifeline for some of the most vulnerable and isolated and disadvantaged people in our society. That's because just under 20 per cent of people in Wales do not have access to a car. They depend on bus services day in, day out, and Adam Price is right: we are introducing an ambitious bus Bill that aims to deliver bus franchising precisely because it can help those who need the bus network most. We can and will in the future design a bus network that puts people first and allows us to integrate bus services fully with rail services.</p>
<p>It's not just traditional bus services that we've been supporting. We're also investing in innovative, community-led solutions. I can point to Blaenau Gwent as one area where we have such an innovation that Welsh Government are funding. It's a service that provides&nbsp;a mixture of a conventional scheduled service during daylight hours and then it switches to a pre-bookable, demand-responsive service in the evening. And we've also recently provided funding to enable community transport services to expand in the western Valleys of south Wales.</p>
<p>Many have pointed to the importance of track retention. This is something I'm very familiar with, with the gradual loss of the Llangollen to Ruabon rail link in my own constituency. I would very much like to see rail track preserved and protected for future use. What happened in past decades in terms of closing branch lines, closing stations is such a terrible loss, and we should do all we can, I believe, to protect the assets that are still in place, but are very, very fragile.</p>
<p>So, I'm proud of the measures that we've already put in place to improve public transport connectivity in our post-industrial communities, which deserve and require those interventions and heavy investment. We are absolutely committed to doing all we can across all regions of Wales, not just in terms of rail, but also in terms of bus services, including, Dirprwy Lywydd, in the western Valleys of Wales.</p>

<p>I thank Adam Price and the Cabinet Secretary, and that brings today's proceedings to a close.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Can I just interject, if I may? I understand that a leaked Welsh Government internal report setting out the results of the survey that Adam Price refers to in the culture division noted, and I quote, staff condemnation of the alleged lack of</p>
<p>‘real performance management taking place’</p>
<p>within the Government, meaning that</p>
<p>‘managers who may not wish to have difficult conversations can avoid them and therefore staff who are not performing "get away" with it’.</p>
<p>Staff apparently also felt</p>
<p>‘there was no sense of strategic long term planning’,</p>
<p>and there was</p>
<p>‘a widely held view that ministers’ expectations are not being managed’.</p>
<p>How do you respond to that?</p>

<p>Okay. Thank you. Adam Price, please.</p>

<p>The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Thank you very much, Adam Price. We are grateful to the Standards of Conduct Committee for considering this important issue, and we look forward to the publication of the committee's report. The Deputy First Minister will consider the committee's recommendations, after it's been published.</p>

<p>Thank&nbsp;you very much indeed, Hannah Blythyn, and thank you for your outstanding continued leadership. I'm looking forward to joining the reception afterwards. And linking to your union commitment as well, the fact is you have had so much influence in our trade union movement, in our political party, and, indeed, now through your role in Government in Wales, by helping to craft and engaging to produce the LGBTQ+ action plan. I think it is really important, and I like to repeat it when I have the opportunity, the fact that it was recognised internationally as an example of good practice in human rights policy making. I'm sure when you joined the global leaders event in Washington, there would have been recognition of that. Certainly, we were very proud that you were a Welsh leader at that event, and I believe Adam Price has also been at that event in previous times. This is our voice on an international scale as well.</p>
<p>I think one of the important things that you've said is that progress isn't inevitable. You can have plans, many plans, particularly on areas in relation to tackling inequalities and prejudice and discrimination, and unless those in leadership roles are held to account, unless we do have those continuing campaigns to show us where there's not enough focus, emphasis, attention, funding—. We know that the work is not done until we deliver those outcomes we want to achieve.&nbsp;</p>
<p>I think it is important also that we look at those points about access to all our public services, for example, the provision of clinical services for trans, non-binary and gender-questioning children and young people. We want to ensure that young people can access services closer to where they live, and that those services are focused on clinical need, based on clinical evidence as well.&nbsp;</p>
<p>I do want to also say that we haven't mentioned yet—I did in my statement—the really great importance of the raising-awareness impact of Pride events across Wales. Again, it's in our draft budget for next year that we will be supporting many more Pride events next year.</p>
<p>But I just wanted to also say, finally, we continue to fund Stonewall Cymru—that's a really important commitment—to support the delivery of the ambitions and actions set out within the action plan. And it's also supporting individuals to actively engage in public life. Many of you will be aware of the Equal Power Equal Voice programme, the mentoring programme that Stonewall Cymru play a part in alongside Disability Wales, the Women's Equality Network and the Ethnic Minorities and Youth Support Team Wales, looking at that intersectional need to mentor people, some of whom may think they could become Senedd Members, certainly go into political roles, into public life. Almost 300 people have completed the programme. Many have gone on to leadership roles—politics, charity boards, civil service, third sector—and we've enjoyed the support of almost 200 mentors; many volunteer and support those who are participating in Equal Power Equal Voice. I was very pleased that we could put extra funding into that when the first phase of the Equal Power Equal Voice programme was concluded. So, we're now funding it for the next phase and we'll fund Stonewall Cymru a proposed £102,000 in 2025-26.&nbsp; &nbsp;</p>

<p>Thank you very much, Adam Price,&nbsp;and, again, the collective solidarity that we've seen coming through the Chamber this afternoon, recognising, as you say, the global assault on many LGBTQ+ people across the world, and recognising it's on our own doorstep as well—. The global leaders conference, I think, would have identified that, which both yourself and Hannah Blythyn have attended and made sure that people know that we are standing up with our plan for LGBTQ+ people and their rights. I will certainly be looking at the rainbow index, and thank you for raising that—I know you've raised that in the past—and see whether we have got access to that data, to enable us, because that's been seen to be a barrier, but I will look at that, and also, of course, at our goal under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 to be a globally responsible nation. Our children are growing up to be globally responsible citizens, and I do welcome the work and the ways in which many children in schools are working together and learning together about their own lives, their own experiences and their own needs.</p>
<p>I did say earlier on that we do want to ensure that trans children and young people can access services closer to where they live, and that obviously includes health services. So, we have got eight regional providers being established, and we work through the NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee on commissioning gender identity services for young people. Of course, as you know, that is via NHS England, but we actually have research, which has to be accessible by children and young people. I would be very happy to meet with young people to discuss these issues as well.</p>
<p>And again, thank you for the leadership and the collective strength, I think, that we see today in this Chamber, in support of the LGBTQ+ action plan, and also for holding us to account for the delivery of it, because we do need to be tested, and the rainbow index is one way of doing this. But, as we go into the spring and summer months, I hope more Senedd Members will encourage and support Pride events. Grass-roots Pride events have a huge impact—as Michael Price said in Brecon, 'a truly transformative impact'.</p>

<p>Okay, thank you. Adam Price.</p>

<p>Thank you very much indeed. In which case, can I bring in Adam Price, please?</p>

<p>Item 4 is next, the topical questions. The first of these questions is to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Education. Adam Price will ask the question.</p>

<p>Thank&nbsp;you very much, Natasha, and there were quite a few questions there. Can I just be clear that our exclusions guidance does say that schools can exclude a pupil permanently for carrying a weapon? That is the case at the moment, and, as I said to Adam Price, there is also the power to search pupils without consent, and there are further powers to search with consent for other items. But the power without consent deals with actual weapons.</p>
<p>As I said to Adam Price, I am really worried about what we are seeing in schools in terms of behaviour, and I think it does come down to the complexity. We're seeing more and more young people who aren't able to self-regulate in schools. That's why we're putting so much emphasis on mental health. But I hope that, by bringing everybody together now in the summit, we will be able to explore these issues in detail. I was speaking to Bridget Phillipson only this morning, actually, about this issue, and also, obviously, there was the tragic death of the young person in Sheffield on Monday.</p>
<p>In terms of learning from good practice—and I didn't answer Adam's point on that—we're always keen to look at good practice wherever it is. We're very actively involved in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, proactively involved with the OECD, and, when I met the OECD recently, this was one of the issues I discussed with them, around behaviour. We talked about how some schools have maybe not got that sense of belonging anymore, and that that's something that we really need to foster. The OECD are coming to Wales in the spring now, and we're doing a peer learning event with them. But we are very keen to learn from wherever good practice is, and I'll be continuing to discuss these issues with the UK Government.</p>

<p>Thank&nbsp;you to Adam Price for tabling this important question. Obviously, the incident that we saw in Ammanford was truly shocking, and I just want to pay tribute as well to the staff involved, particularly the staff, I think, that spoke bravely at the conclusion of the case and shared their experience in terms of what they had gone through. Unfortunately, this is an issue that's becoming more and more prevalent. We saw the issue just yesterday in Bryntirion Comprehensive School in Bridgend, where a pupil carried a knife, and the really, really tragic incident we saw on Monday in Sheffield, where a young person lost their life.</p>
<p>Adam mentioned a series of actions that could be taken by the Welsh Government, whether that be security guards and screening, enhanced powers for teaching staff, and, whilst I think those certainly do need to be considered, I think you overlook the root of the problem here, which is that young people and their dynamic and their sense of belonging in a school has changed, and it has changed since the pandemic. So, I wonder what lessons the Welsh Government is learning in terms of how young people's interaction with school, if you like, has changed as a consequence of the pandemic, as a consequence of not attending school on a regular basis, and then what lessons we can learn for that generation and for future generations so that the impacts of the pandemic are truly felt, known and understood.</p>

<p>People&nbsp;are watching this Welsh Government very carefully, and this First Minister can insult or patronise me as much as she likes, but government by patronisation is not a good look by a First Minister whose sense of entitlement to govern seems to be becoming clearer week after week.</p>
<p>The First Minister said in December that we now have a Labour Government in Westminster that respects Wales and respects devolution. Last week, the Cabinet Secretary for finance conceded that some work needs to be done to look at the cash Wales gets as a result of England-only spending by the UK Treasury. My colleague Adam Price was quite right in saying that we're looking at data a quarter of a century old when we calculate Wales's share.</p>
<p>We on the Plaid Cymru benches believe that a UK Government that respects Wales would right this wrong without a moment's delay. Back in September, the First Minister told us that Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves were in listening mode when it comes to reviewing the Barnett formula, and that she would, and I quote,</p>
<p>‘see how far we get’.</p>
<p>It is now February, so can the First Minister tell us how far they've got, or do Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves have their fingers in their ears too?</p>

<p>Okay. Thank you for that. Okay. Moving on to&nbsp;2.2, P-06-1495, 'Create a structure within the Senedd to ban politicians convicted of intended deception'.&nbsp;</p>
<p>‘Adam Price Ms aims to uphold integrity and accountability in Welsh politics. Lying continues to be a controversial issue in global politics, this initiative is a noble effort to confront it directly. To build trust among the Welsh people, further discussion is warranted. In any profession, dishonesty typically results in dismissal; thus, it is puzzling that politicians, responsible for public funds amounting to billions of pounds, would oppose such measures unless they have something to conceal.'</p>
<p>This was submitted by Philip Cook with 254 signatures. Could I invite Joel to discuss the petition and any actions you wish to take?</p>

<p>I've only just started. And a multilevel regression with post-stratification survey by YouGov last week showed that more people in every&nbsp;constituency in Wales, Scotland and England backed a closer arrangement with the EU than with the US. Of course, as has been said today, I absolutely accept that Wales voted to leave the EU and that has dictated the way that we've had to respond to policy since. But I've no doubt that public opinion has changed, and I find that in my daily work in the constituency; I do believe that people no longer think it was a good thing to leave the EU. And I am glad that the UK Government plans to reset its relationship with the EU. I mean, I hope, eventually, that we will rejoin the single market and the customs union, but I do think that will take time, bearing in mind that there was a democratic vote to leave the EU.</p>
<p>I now want to just say a few words about the impact that Brexit has had on young people and the loss of opportunities for them, and how much harder it is for young people to have the opportunities that many of us have had to live, work and travel freely in the EU. Certainly, after the Brexit result was announced, I had so many young people coming to me in my constituency saying how bitter they felt that they had lost all these opportunities, and at that time, we didn't have votes for 16 or 17-year-olds and they couldn't vote in that referendum, and they felt that older people had shut off their future. And I'm very keen that we do as much as we possibly can to ensure that young people have as many opportunities as they possibly can.</p>
<p>And I'm very pleased that Adam Price mentioned the Taith programme. I think it is great that the Welsh Government has invested £65 million into the Taith programme and has expanded it beyond and further afield than the EU. I think it does show that Welsh Government is committed to keeping our international links in Europe and across the world. And, of course, we do want our young people to be internationalists; we want them to have as many experiences and as many wide experiences as possible.</p>
<p>One of my constituents runs an organisation, Schools into Europe, and I'm sure that you can imagine the difficult, logistical challenges that he's had since we left the European Union. And there are many things that are arising all the time that make it increasingly difficult for young people to go to Europe. For example, the Home Office is pursuing a drive towards a one-document-per-traveller policy, a part of which will involve the withdrawal of the collective passport. This is something that was decided on by the previous Government in the UK, a Conservative Government, in 2022. And at the moment, a school group can travel member states without individual party members requiring their own passports, which for schools in areas of deprivation is really the difference between being able to travel abroad or not being able to travel abroad, because a collective passport costs £39 and covers the entire group, whereas individual child passports cost £57.50. And so, despite repeated lobbying, the Home Office is continuing to pursue this policy, citing border security. So, I wondered if the Minister, when she makes her contribution, or the Cabinet Secretary, could perhaps comment on whether there are any discussions with the Home Office to try to perhaps not introduce this decision that was made during the previous Government.</p>
<p>Secondly, before Brexit, the list of travellers scheme enabled any pupil of a British education establishment to travel to the EU without the need to apply for a visa, and that has now changed. The other examples of difficulties that are arising are that there are currently two incoming schemes that will radically impact travel to Europe: the entry/exit system, EES, which will require schoolchildren to undergo biometric scanning at the port, and which the Port of Dover has categorically said will cause extreme delays, again decided by the previous Government; and then ETIAS, the European travel information and authorisation system, under which travellers will be required to obtain pre-authorisation to travel before travelling to the Schengen area. These two things are coming in; they're going to make it even more difficult for children to travel, and I just make a plea, really, for us to do all we can, as a Government here in Wales, working with the Home Office, to try to remove these restrictions that have come about as a result of Brexit, and try to open up more opportunities to our young people so we don't become inward looking in Wales, but that we're able to act and function on an international scale.</p>

<p>Adam Price to reply to the debate.</p>

<p>Item 8, the Plaid Cymru debate,&nbsp;Brexit and the future relationship with the European Union. I call on Adam Price to move the motion.</p>

<p>Thank you.&nbsp;I do have a couple of quick questions before we move on to Adam Price. Given that Sustrans are the national custodian for the national cycle network, what engagement, if any, do you have with them regarding connections&nbsp;with your active travel network planning and mapping?&nbsp;</p>

<p>But they are still highlighting this as a current issue, without specifying individual councils. Most Members of the Senedd have been out with one or the other or both groups at various times, with a human, guide dog or blindfold and white stick, and experienced barriers on new projects, whereas if they'd been involved at the design stage and implementation and monitoring, not only would you have got it right first time but you'd be saved the cost of retrospectively remedying those barriers. I'm not saying you individually, but the sector as a whole.</p>
<p>We'd better move on. Adam Price, you have some questions.</p>

<p>The decision, of course, by the Welsh Government to increase the tuition fee cap for Welsh universities for full-time undergraduate degrees does raise significant concerns about the sustainability of higher education in Wales. Whilst the Government claims this rise will help ensure universities remain viable and competitive, it does highlight the mounting financial pressures that our wonderful institutions face. These challenges were made very evident yesterday when I joined Adam Price and other campaigners on the steps of the Senedd to support the University of Wales Trinity Saint David's Lampeter campus. And you may wonder why. I'll tell you. I have numerous constituents in Aberconwy who have actually graduated from this wonderful institution. Now, the proposed closure of up to 30 courses, ending undergraduate teaching, would not only devastate this historic campus, but have far-reaching consequences for the local economy of Lampeter and west Wales, and will deprive people who want to go there. So, how does the Welsh Government plan to balance fee increases with preserving regional access to higher education and support these struggling but wonderful campuses, like Lampeter, in rural Wales? Diolch.</p>

<p>Bore da, croeso. Good morning and welcome to this morning’s meeting of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee in the Senedd, the Welsh Parliament. I’m pleased to welcome a new member of our committee, Tom Giffard MS, sitting to my left, who replaces a former member of the committee, our colleague Natasha Asghar MS. Obviously, a big thank you to Natasha for her contribution over the last nearly four years as a member of the committee. We wish her well in her new roles.</p>
<p>This meeting, as usual, will be conducted bilingually. Headsets are available to provide simultaneous translation on channel 1 and sound amplification on channel 2. People joining online can access translation by clicking on the globe icon on Zoom. We’ve had apologies for absence from one committee member, Rhianon Passmore, and another member, Adam Price, will be joining us, I believe, around 09:30 for the further evidence session of this committee. Do Members have any declarations of registrable interests they wish to declare before we move on? In which case, we’ll move on to papers to note.</p>

<p>Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.</p>

<p>Thank you. I'm going to turn to Anna or David on this one, because I may have misremembered the details, but what I remember is that we can share data of that kind with local authorities, for example, without having that data available in a public register. So, for policy reasons, as Adam Price mentioned, when local authorities would like to look at whether they'd want to use powers in a certain area, for example, or if they want to provide more information on the nature of certain businesses in their areas, the information will be available to them for those purposes. But on the level of people running very small businesses in their homes, that won't be public information. But I'll just check if I have remembered that correctly.&nbsp;</p>

<p>I think if I remember correctly, there are 20 powers, as Adam Price has explained, on the face of the Bill, and for 17 of them, we will be using the draft affirmative. So, only three of the 20 will not be used in that way, and the three that aren't are things that are just for the administration of the Bill, not the purpose of the Bill.</p>

<p>Chair, the WRA&nbsp;isn't with me today. I'm happy to have those conversations with them and to write to the committee with the details about how we will go about this in the context that Adam Price has raised this afternoon.</p>

<p>Well, I thank Adam Price for that question, Chair. So, there are two specific reasons why we didn't do that. As Adam Price will be aware, in the co-operation agreement there are two things that are connected. There's the Bill in front of the Senedd at the moment, but we'd promised to bring forward another Bill, a Bill that will create a licensing system—a licensing Bill. There is a connection between both Bills. It was important to me, when I came back to my ministerial responsibilities for finance, earlier in the autumn, to safeguard the second Bill. The best way to do that was to move the powers to create the register into the first Bill, to pave the way. Without having that register, I don't think that the second Bill could succeed. And I didn't want to wait until the second Bill, because we're in the final year now of this Senedd and there's a lot of legislation to come before the Senedd. So, to safeguard both things in the agreement, I wanted to include the register in the first Bill. It wasn't possible to complete all of the work before we sent the Bill to the Llywydd, but I didn't want to see more delays, because delays create problems for us in trying to get both Bills through the process that we have here the Senedd, in the time that we have left.</p>
<p>So, it was my decision to send the Bill to the Llywydd. Now, it's not unusual for the Government to lay amendments in front of the Senedd at Stage 2. But my thought process was that it was better, especially for the Finance Committee, to see what we had already prepared, and to place that information now in front of the committee and to say, 'This is what our intentions are as a Government, to be done in Stage 2.' That's why we published these things and did it in that way, without having more delay in the legislation process.</p>

<p>Next, Adam Price.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Thank you, Chair. So, as I rehearsed a little earlier with Adam Price, the Government has published, made available, clauses that we will intend to introduce as Stage 2 amendments. If those amendments succeed, then, instead of the regulation-making power that is currently in the Bill and is there, let's be frank, as a placeholder, because unless you have a reference to these matters on the face of the Bill, you've got nothing to amend—. But the Government's intention is to amend those powers to put these matters on the face of the Bill, rather than to deal with them by regulation.</p>
<p>I know that some of the concerns that have been raised are that, as the Bill currently is drafted, it might give Ministers the power by regulation to introduce criminal offences where the register requirements are not complied with. Just to be clear with the committee that the clauses that the Government intends to introduce at Stage 2 will not create criminal offences. My decision has been that you need to make the penalty proportionate to the nature of the harm, and that it is better that where these provisions are not complied with you must have a penalty, but it will be a civil penalty, it will be a monetary penalty and will not, if the Stage 2 amendments succeed, result in a criminal offence having been committed.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Thank you, and thank you very much for your time, Minister. It's probably fair to say that the committee hasn't been overwhelmed with responses to its consultation on this piece of legislation, but we always look for quality rather than quantity, don't we? I was interested in the discussion that Adam Price has just referred to that we had with Dr Fox last week about where the balance lies between what you put in statute, what is in Standing Orders, and how we manage the process. And I don't think there's a right or a wrong position, as it happens; I think we look for that balance and then we will seek to find it. In terms of Dr Fox's point of view—and if you've seen the evidence, you'll be familiar with her view—it seemed that she thought that Standing Orders should be doing the bulk of the work rather than statute. So, do you think that her potentially implied criticism that perhaps statute is going too far and you should be leaving more to Standing Orders is correct, or are you comfortable with where you are? Will you be looking over the Bill as it stands in order to, perhaps, put another check in place on these matters?</p>

<p>Thank you very much, Adam Price, for your very important question.</p>

<p>And finally, Adam Price.</p>

<p>Okay. I’m interested in that, Dr Fox, and I’m grateful to you as well. Dr Tucker, you outlined in an earlier answer one of your concerns, or you seemed to hint at least that you had other concerns in answer to Adam Price around the amendability of secondary legislation. And I think what you said was that you are concerned about who makes that legislation, who is accountable for it. I’m not sure I wholly agree with that, I have to say, but do you have other concerns? You seemed to hint that you had other issues you wanted to discuss with the committee.</p>

<p>No, because I'm more interested not with posture—I'm more interested in actually making change, and I think the time we spent on the independent commission that has set a framework for change is fundamentally important. That's why I asked you the question as to whether you would support that. So, if your position is lost on the main motion, and the amendment comes in terms of support for the findings of the constitutional commission that you voted for previously, I do not understand the logic as to why you would abstain on that.</p>
<p>But look, my main interest in this is that these are important debates that need to take place, and can I just say I'm very pleased—and I hope the Deputy First Minister will give some further information on this—that there are discussions around the issue of youth justice and probation? And the points that Adam Price made are absolutely right. When I heard the justice Minister today talking about the fact that we can't go on just building spaces in prisons, we've got to look at alternatives, isn't that exactly what we've been saying in terms of the devolution of justice and why those things needs to change?</p>
<p>It's certainly my view that the devolution of justice will probably be a 10-year programme. The starting point for me, actually, would be youth justice and probation, because so many of the areas to make those effective are actually devolved functions. And at the moment, you're absolutely right, Adam, we actually still have a justice system that is over-centralised and predominantly based on a Victorian model of justice. Justice has got to be about solving problems, it's got to be about solutions for people, it's got to be about keeping people out of prison.&nbsp;And&nbsp;I thank Jane Hutt for the work on the youth justice blueprint, because in Wales I think that that co-operation, even without the devolution of youth justice, has meant that we have very, very few young people now that actually go into prison at all. It's almost an exception now for that to be case, and that shows how important it is—&nbsp;</p>

<p>I was just trying to make a broader point. I haven't drifted anywhere near as far off the motion as Adam Price did, for example.</p>
<p>How will financial support from the wealthier to the poorer regions be organised and maintained? Despite the statement of YesCymru, Wales is a net beneficiary of the sharing of resources. We might think and argue that the Barnett formula doesn't give us enough, but I tell you what, if we just kept what we collected, we'd be in very serious trouble.</p>
<p>Everything does not have to be devolved to Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland or the English city regions at the same time. What we need is a list of items that are available to be devolved with each Parliament or mayoral area needing at least two thirds of the numbers voting in favour before it is devolved. That's what happened in Northern Ireland for the devolution of policing. This avoids big-bang devolution where control of everything passes on one day. It allows for matters to be devolved when the Parliaments and mayors are ready for them and funding agreed.</p>
<p>The advantage of this is that it sets an end point to the devolution journey outside of creating new countries. It allows every area to move at a pace it is comfortable with, with a common end point. The United States of America has no problem with large states, such as New York and California, having exactly the same powers as&nbsp;Wyoming and&nbsp;Vermont.</p>
<p>And finally, devolution in Wales does not have to end in Cardiff. Devolution in Wales is possible to the four regions of Wales and to local authorities. The twentieth century was almost a one-way movement of control away from local councils on things like water and further education. The question should be where decisions are best made, and it isn't always in Cardiff.</p>

<p>Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. This debate is about building the Welsh nation. It is about trusting the people of Wales. It's about having faith in our own potential, about not being ready to be held back. And I'm proud to stand with my party as a party that has always pursued Welsh nationhood and has always been interested in building the Welsh nation. And we're clearer than ever&nbsp;on that endeavour. I have to express how disappointed I am in the tone taken by the Deputy First Minister in aligning himself, essentially, with the argument put forward by Paul Davies for the Conservatives. Paul Davies told us, essentially, that what we were talking about today, that empowering the people of Wales, was 'tinkering'. And what the Deputy First Minister told us was that this was a debate about the constitution rather than about things that really matter to people. When Adam Price spoke, I didn't hear him talking about the constitution; I heard him talking about the need to get to grips with issues in the crime and justice system in Wales. When I hear Sioned Williams talking about the administration of welfare, I don't hear her talking about the constitution; I hear her talking about the need to look after the most vulnerable people in our society. And when Rhys ab Owen talks about the need to invest in rail, I don't hear the constitution; I hear about the need to make sure that Wales gets its fair share of funding as a result of HS2. Yes, it involves making constitutional change, but this is genuinely about the future of Wales and Welsh communities. It is not 'tinkering', and I'm afraid that what I heard far too often, to borrow a phrase: 'For Labour, see the Tories'. And we can't afford to have that kind of attitude on—[<em>Interruption</em>.]—on discussing and referring to discussions about the powers that we have, the tools that we have in Wales, as 'tinkering' or as somehow being a distraction.</p>
<p>In building a future for our nation, there will be different models of how we move forward, but surely there's one basic measure, as we've heard this afternoon, which we should all be able to embrace, whether sitting on the frontbench of Government, on the backbenches of Labour, or on the Conservative benches, even, that, within the United Kingdom, where powers are devolved, where tools are able to be used, where people are empowered in one nation, then that should also be afforded to others, and where Scotland is trusted with additional tools that they're able to use in order to pursue the interests of the people of Scotland, then so should Wales.</p>
<p>I have a book; it was shown to me today. It's the story by Gwynoro Jones of that battle between the Government's party and mine in Carmarthenshire in the 1960s and 1970s, and we're told we shouldn't judge a book by its cover—the foreword, by the way, was by the former First Minister, Mark Drakeford—we shouldn't judge books by their cover, but I was drawn to the inside of the back cover: 'parity with Scotland becomes major devolution issue', we're told. So, it's not new, but the giants of the Labour Party back then, such as Cledwyn Hughes, said in that particular article that he was very disturbed back then to hear of Labour deciding to put a weaker proposal on the table for Wales than they were proposing to put on the table for Scotland. Well, I invite Mick Antoniw today, and others who feel, like him, that you have no issue with talking about parity for Scotland, to actually vote in that way today and show that we're serious about pursuing the interests of Wales and getting those tools in our hands so that we can build a brighter future for our country. Let's show that we want to cut Wales a break when it comes to its future and support the motion today.</p>

<p>Cabinet Secretary, I spoke to&nbsp;Richard Johnson, the head brewer at Tenby Harbour Brewery on this, and he called it illogical. And I'll read you the quote that he said:</p>
<p>'Wales is a recycling nation'—</p>
<p>I agree with this—</p>
<p>'so a blunt "one size fits all" approach creates additional logistical and financial burdens on the smallest producers, when the very largest producers are generating the majority of the recycling demand.'</p>
<p>And I would agree with that. And listening to the reply that you gave to Adam Price earlier, I would argue that you agree with that as well, because the cost implications of rewashing and relabelling these bottles, if they're from a big brewery—Heineken, for example—is much easier than if you're a small independent brewery like Tenby Harbour Brewery, who sell across the UK, not just in Wales. So, why are you developing a policy that advocates in favour of what big international, multinational companies are advocating for and find easiest, and ignoring the plight that this would put on small Welsh businesses across our country?</p>

<p>Thank you to Adam Price for asking this question.</p>

<p>I thank Adam Price for the question.</p>

<p>So, Llywydd, these are a direct&nbsp;response to the Cass review, regarding prescribing by private practitioners, including those not registered in or accountable to professional regulators in the UK. The Cass&nbsp;review was commissioned by NHS England to make recommendations on those gender identity services, and NHS Wales is represented on the NHS England transformation programme by the joint commissioning committee, which represents all seven health boards. The Welsh Government continues to be driven by the evidence to best support the needs of young people who are questioning their gender. The JCC is also considering the findings in the Cass review to inform a planned review of the Wales gender service for adults in Wales.</p>
<p>In practice, few, if any, general practitioners in Wales actually prescribe puberty blockers for puberty suppression in children and young people. The Royal College of General Practitioners advises that GPs should not prescribe puberty blockers for patients aged under 18 years of age, given the concerns about the evidence base in this area, as well as the specialist expertise required to monitor dosage and side effects. The Cass&nbsp;review heard that some GPs had come under increasing pressure to prescribe puberty blockers, and it was considered likely that the emergency restrictions on the private prescribing would increase the pressure.</p>
<p>Following the first emergency Order coming into force, the National Health Service (General Medical Services Contracts) (Prescription of Drugs Etc.) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2024 were made on 27 June and came into force on 19 July. The&nbsp;National Health Service (General Medical Services Contracts) (Prescription of Drugs Etc.) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2024 make minor amendments to the definition of the healthcare professionals who can prescribe puberty blockers in NHS general practice, and they were made on 25 October and came into force on 15 November. The net effect of the two sets of regulations in Wales is that general practitioners and other prescribers working in general practice are not permitted to prescribe puberty blockers to children and young people unless that person has an existing prescription for puberty blockers obtained prior to 19 July 2024, or is being treated with puberty blockers as part of a clinical trial and the purpose of both is for puberty suppression in respect of gender dysphoria, gender incongruence or a combination of both. So, I think it's worth pointing out, therefore, that I think, as Sam said, the net effect of the two regulations is that under-18s with an existing prescription can still obtain puberty blockers, and GPs can prescribe puberty blockers for under-18s who commenced treatment before the regulations came into force in July. However, the advice of the Royal College of General Practitioners is that GPs should not prescribe these medicines unless they have appropriate expertise in the management of gender dysphoria and/or gender incongruence.</p>
<p>The effect of the regulations is to align GP prescribing with the evidence-based recommendations of the Cass review, and under-18s seeking puberty blockers can obtain a prescription via the clinical trial being run by the new gender identity clinics being established by NHS England and commissioned by the NHS Wales joint commissioning committee. The regulations do not prevent onward referral by a GP to a specialist gender service for prescription of puberty blockers as part of that clinical trial. We expect to see more details on the eligibility of the research trial in January, but our understanding is that puberty blockers will be available for all young people as part of the trial, where there is clinical agreement. The service in Bristol has already started seeing patients, and we expect the service in Alder Hey&nbsp;to open soon.</p>
<p>Turning to the programme of engagement,&nbsp;Llywydd, which Adam Price raised, the Cass review included a significant programme of engagement, including with young people, parents and carers with lived experience. Stakeholders across Wales were encouraged to participate in the review's consultation by signing up to receive and respond to all related consultations. NHS England ran a 90-day public consultation on the policy proposition, and the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee, now the joint commissioning committee, updated Llais Cymru and the Children's Commissioner for Wales office throughout the period of the review. As Mike Hedges, the Chair, said, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee considered the amendment No.&nbsp;2 regulations on&nbsp;11 November and again on 3 December.</p>
<p>So, passing the motion to annul will not broaden in any way the circumstances in which NHS general practitioners will be able to prescribe puberty blockers. It will, however, give a certain amount of uncertainty as to other medical professionals'&nbsp;ability to do so&nbsp;or not. We don't think that's a particularly good position to be in. It's better to have clarity about who is and isn't able to prescribe.</p>

<p>That allows us to move to the motion to annul the&nbsp;National Health Service (General Medical Services Contracts) (Prescription of Drugs Etc.) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2024. I call on Adam Price to move the motion.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Motion NNDM8765 Adam Price</p>
<p>To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.2:</p>
<p>Agrees that The National Health Service (General Medical Services Contracts) (Prescription of Drugs Etc.) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2024, laid before the Senedd on 25 October 2024, be annulled.</p>

<p>Turning to the specific legal issues raised by Adam Price in his submission, article 14 of the Equality and Human Rights Commission convention rights on discrimination is engaged only where the matter falls within the ambit of another convention right, such as article 8: private and family life. Article 14 can be breached even if the substantive article, i.e. article 8, is not breached. But what is at issue here is the matter of the ability of a child to access puberty blocker treatment via their GP on the NHS. There is much case law that demonstrates that the state does not breach article 8 by refusing to authorise a particular type of medical treatment, even at an individual level, still less as a matter of general policy. It has repeatedly been held that matters of healthcare policy fall within the state's margin of appreciation and the type of complex ethical resourcing issues entailed in such policy decisions are not ones that should be second guessed by the court.</p>
<p>Llywydd, it's not possible, therefore, to completely rule out the possibility that the availability of such treatment is within the ambit of article 8, so as to engage article 14, but we think, given the case law, that that is unlikely. In article 14 terms, it is difficult to see how one sex is treated differently, directly or indirectly, by the policy set out in the regulation, as the policy applies to males and females and those who identify as males and females in exactly the same way. We are not aware that any particular sub-cohort within the cohort of under 18s that could previously have been prescribed puberty blockers by their GP would be disproportionately affected compared to any other sub-cohort so as to claim indirect discrimination.</p>
<p>Article 14 also covers discrimination on grounds of other status. The courts have generally approached this on a wide basis. It may be possible for a claim to be brought on this basis, as between those who can afford to pay for puberty blockers privately and those who need to rely on the NHS. Even if differential treatment on a ground within article 14 can be shown, article 14 is not breached if the difference in treatment meets a legitimate aim and a fair balance has been struck between the rights protected by article 14 and the general interest.</p>
<p>The protection of the physical and mental health of others, as demonstrated by the Cass review, is a legitimate aim in this case, and a fair balance has been struck because the policy is not an outright ban on puberty blockers. Instead, it is a calibrated response so that the net effect of the regulations in Wales is that prescribers under general medical services contracts are not permitted to prescribe puberty blockers to under-18s unless the person has an existing prescription for puberty blockers obtained prior to 19 July 2024, or is being treated with puberty blockers as part of a clinical trial. Further, the restrictions and regulations do not prevent onward referral by a GP to specialist gender services for the provision of puberty blockers.&nbsp;So, the policy and the regulations, for the reasons set out in the Cass review, pursue the legitimate aim of protecting the physical and mental health of under-18s in the context of treatment with puberty blockers. The regulations preserve the ability of under-18s who were undergoing treatment prior to the regulations coming into effect, or those taking part in a clinical trial, to obtain puberty blockers, and they do not prevent the prescription of puberty blockers by specialist gender services, and that strikes a fair balance between the rights protected by article 14 and the general interests. The regulations are, therefore, in my view and the view of the Welsh Government, proportionate and not a breach of article 14.</p>
<p>Turning, then, to the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011, the duty in section 1 of the Measure is a duty to have regard to the rights in part 1 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. It is not a duty to apply the rights of the child in part 1 of the UNCRC. And having regard to the recommendations of the Cass review and the calibrated nature of the regulations, which are not an outright ban on the prescription of puberty blockers, which preserve the ability, in certain circumstances, to safely prescribe those drugs to under-18s, it is clear that the Welsh Ministers have had due regard to the rights set out in the UNCRC and, in my judgment, that satisfies the duty.</p>
<p>Turning, then, to consultation, it's absolutely right that we did not carry out, as the Welsh Government, a formal public consultation on the policies and the regulations prior to making the regulations. However, there is no statutory duty to consult in such a way. Absence of statutory duty public law requires consultation where there has been a promise to consult, a practice of consulting, or it would be conspicuously unfair not to consult. There was no promise to consult on the policy and no past practice of consulting has been established. It is not considered likely that a legal challenge on the grounds of conspicuous unfairness could succeed.&nbsp;There is no evidence that any sub-cohort of under-18s affected by policy in the regulations are peculiarly and detrimentally affected by the policy. So, for example, there is no sub-cohort that would be prevented from accessing puberty blocker treatment under the policy via specialist gender services.</p>
<p>Whilst the UNCRC does provide for the views of the child to be able to be expressed and given due weight, it is the view of the Welsh Government that the requirement under the Measure to give due regard to that right is met in circumstances where, under domestic law, there is duty to or a choice to consult on a matter and the views of children are duly sought and considered. But there is no duty in domestic law to consult on a matter where the Welsh Government is of the view that the duty to have due regard to the rights under the UNCRC does not itself create a free-standing obligation to consult children. Therefore, in my contention, Llywydd, the Welsh Government had no such duty to consult. It has properly given due regard to the rights under the Measure and has properly implemented the regulations, and I ask the Senedd to confirm them.</p>

<p>Adam Price, I have an intervention being sought by Hefin David online.</p>

<p>Adam Price to reply to the debate.</p>

<p>Item 11 is next, the motion to annul the&nbsp;National Health Service (General Medical Services Contracts) (Prescription of Drugs Etc.) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2024. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Adam Price. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 36 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.</p>

<p>Bore da, croeso. Good morning and welcome to this morning’s meeting of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee in the Senedd, the Welsh Parliament. I’m pleased to welcome our witnesses to the committee this morning. The meeting is bilingual. Headsets are provided for simultaneous translation on channel 1 and sound amplification on channel 2. Participants joining online can access translation by clicking on the globe icon on Zoom. Adam Price has given his apologies for this meeting, but Heledd Fychan is deputising for him, so welcome to this committee. Do Members have any declarations of registrable interest they wish to share? I can’t see any indication, so that’s fine. Before commencing our first evidence session, I’ll just place on record that the committee will be visiting Cardiff Airport on 9 January for a guided tour and a briefing from the executive team of Cardiff International Airport Limited.</p>

<p>Finally, question 8, Adam Price.</p>

<p>Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Adam Price.&nbsp;</p>

<p>First Minister, earlier this year in the Senedd, we had a motion, of course, calling for an update on 'Planning Policy Wales' to specifically mandate undergrounding rather than just it being a preferred option, as is currently the Welsh Government’s position—the preferred option, but not prepared to put that into planning guidance. Of course, I heard what you said to Adam Price in his question today. And you responded to me earlier this year—of course, undergrounding, if it’s feasible, if it’s possible, if it’s affordable, but, sometimes, that simply won’t be possible. But what I would say, First Minister, is that I’m concerned that the Welsh Government planning guidance is lagging behind, potentially, technological advances. If you look to continental Europe, we can see huge steps forward in undergrounding, and, in fact, there are Welsh companies—Welsh contractors—that are very much involved in that in continental Europe. So, can I ask you: if it’s still the Welsh Government’s position to not change planning guidance in this regard, can you at least start the process of investigating these new technological advances, with a view to making and changing the Welsh Government guidance, and, eventually, for you to support a position where you will only support cabling if it’s underground?</p>

<p>Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.</p>

<p>Diolch. I know our observer members—we're joined by Jane Dodds, Adam Price and Lee Waters today—are keen to ask questions with regard to the inquiry into deception. Lee, you've already indicated and waited patiently, so I shall bring you in first.</p>

<p>Diolch.&nbsp;Thanks to everybody for their contributions. Adam Price, as you said, Amgueddfa Cymru is one of our most important national institutions and it's therefore a core concern if something goes wrong with one of these. You highlighted that this raises broader questions about the governance of the public sector and arm's-length bodies and that Welsh Government also has to accept its responsibilities here when it became aware of serious governance issues but allowed them to fester. As you said, to then move to self-assessment of public bodies is wrong, when this has, instead, illustrated the need for more rigorous audit controls.</p>
<p>Natasha Asghar again referred to the background of wider funding shortages at <em>amgueddfa</em>, the lack of adequate policies being in place, the impact of the Government's arrangements and the high cost to the public purse. She stated, quite rightly, that it is shocking that the Welsh Government rejected our recommendation of a review of grievance procedures at other similar bodies. And she asked what discussion there has been in the Welsh Government about risks applied to the appointment of the former president to the role of reviewing Cadw.&nbsp;</p>
<p>Heledd Fychan, as you said, lessons need to be learned. We need transparency and consistency. You referred to the Welsh Government's hands-off approach when these things need to be sorted, and to stop seeing the same faces popping up on boards. You concluded that you hoped that the Welsh Government has learned lessons not reflected in its response.</p>
<p>The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership rightly stated that Amgueddfa Cymru is one of our most treasured cultural organisations. He referred to progress being made, but then to only accepting five of the committee’s recommendations, which fails to provide the assurances that we seek and the public needs to hear. He did say that work is progressing, which the Welsh Government will keep the committee aware of, and that he has taken on board the points made about the diversity of boards and budgeting pressures. He concluded that lessons do have to be learned and challenges taken forward.</p>
<p>I will just conclude by repeating a couple of lines, however, in my speech, when I referred to the acceptance of two recommendations in principle only, including the recommendation about the former president of the <em>amgueddfa</em>’s appointment to the role reviewing Cadw. This is concerning, when the previous Permanent Secretary previously gave the Public Accounts Committee in the last Senedd a commitment to end this practice in light of Members' concerns that 'acceptance in principle' did not constitute an adequate response. We hope and trust that that is still the Welsh Government’s position. As I have mentioned before, in leading debates in this Chamber in this capacity—. I have emphasised that we need the Welsh Government to revisit that and revisit the reasons why, in 2018, it then felt that that was the appropriate position to take.</p>

<p>Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I start by thanking the committee for the report, in particular the Chair, Mark Isherwood, for his leadership of the committee during this very difficult time and all of the other things the Chair has gone on to do, and to everybody who has contributed to this discussion today?</p>
<p>I should say from the outset, Chair, that I very much welcome the work of the committee and the future work of the committee and the scrutiny of the committee with my portfolio and perhaps on the roll-out of the self-assessment model that the Chair and others have raised concerns with today. You could hear the passion in the response from all Members for Amgueddfa Cymru. Adam Price was right to point to it being one of the most important institutions to the nation. It's one the most treasured cultural organisations, and the events outlined in this report do represent an extremely challenging time in its history. Whilst I was not directly involved during this difficult time, I am confident that lessons have been learned and that the work undertaken by the committee, as well as the report published by the Auditor General for Wales, have played an important part in this process.</p>
<p>I was pleased that the committee was satisfied that the decision to attempt to achieve a settlement instead of proceeding to a tribunal was the right course of action, noting the Chair's and the committee's response to the settlement. However, I understand that the decisions were made to resolve matters and enable all parties to move forward whilst avoiding greater cost to the public purse. The Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip provided a response to the committee's report back in August. She noted that the committee had highlighted areas we had identified as priorities and where progress was already being made. As the Chair pointed out, of the eight recommendations for the Welsh Government, we accepted five in full and two in principle.</p>
<p>We did not accept the recommendation related to reviewing each of our arm's-length sponsored bodies' grievance policies, which is the responsibility of individual accounting officers. There is already a statutory code of practice from ACAS, and they must follow a full and fair procedure in line with the code of practice for any discipline or grievance cases.&nbsp;We are continuing to review and update our policies and processes to help mitigate the risk of similar issues arising in the future. Since issuing our response, the Permanent Secretary has written to the committee outlining the approach being taken to update 'Managing Welsh Public Money'.&nbsp;Officials will be prioritising the essential elements&nbsp;within this document that require immediate attention, and as chapters are updated, they will be issued. We're aiming for a comprehensive review of the entire document to be completed by December 2025. And as stated in our response, Llywydd, the updated document will include clarifying processes to address scenarios where the Welsh Government is an involved party.</p>
<p>Work is also continuing on our guidance for raising a concern or complaint against a chair of a public body, on the roll-out of the self-assessment model for reviewing arm's-length bodies. We will keep the committee updated on these important pieces of work. In response to the report, we also agreed that our future referrals to the Charity Commission will be communicated to the committee and to the auditor general. The chair and chief executive of Amgueddfa Cymru have written to the committee responding to the recommendations relevant to them. Last month I had the opportunity to meet with them to discuss their vision for Amgueddfa Cymru's future and the role that it can play in supporting the priorities for culture and the Prif Weinidog's priorities. We continue to work in partnership with Amgueddfa Cymru in responding to the 77 recommendations made by the tailored review. Sixty of those recommendations are now either requiring no further action or are incorporated into plans as business as usual. The remaining 17 recommendations—the majority of those will be completed or in plans as business as usual by March 2025.</p>
<p>Governance reform is a priority for Amgueddfa Cymru's chair as she continues to respond to the tailored review and build a strong foundation for the future. This includes introducing a new committee structure for the board and reviewing key governance documentation. I do take on board, Chair, the points raised by Heledd, Adam and others around the diversity of boards, and this is an area that we could all do more on and we are all committed to doing so.</p>
<p>The committee also referenced in its report the budgetary pressures that faced Amgueddfa Cymru during this financial year in particular. As we know, this has been a very tough year for all of our cultural organisations and there is no simple solution to fix their current financial challenges. Since the committee's report, Llywydd, we have made a further £940,000 investment in terms of revenue funding available to Amgueddfa Cymru, which it is using to rebuild following the recent restructure, to help it become more sustainable for the future and to strengthen its governance arrangements. We have also made funding available for critical works at the National Museum Cardiff, and once the Welsh Government's draft budget for 2025-26 has been agreed, we'll be liaising with the museum regarding its budget for the next financial year.</p>
<p>Llywydd, our draft 'Priorities for Culture 2024–2030' sets out our priorities and ambitions for the next five years. We won't hold back on our ambitions for the sector. My ambition is that every person in Wales has the right to access, to curate, to participate in and to see themselves reflected in the cultural activity of the nation. Amgueddfa Cymru has a key role in helping to fulfil this and I'm committed to helping it thrive as an organisation. I have been assured that lessons have been learned and that challenges are being taken forward. Again, I'm grateful to the committee for their work on this report and do look forward to further scrutiny from the committee in the coming months ahead. Diolch.</p>