Pubs and Community Funding

Debate between Adam Jogee and Alex Norris

Monday 19th May 2025 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Alex Norris)]

I thank the hon. Member for Reigate (Rebecca Paul) for securing this important debate and for that kind invitation, which I will return to. Usually, at 10.17 pm, if there is a difficult question about pubs, it is whether you can squeeze in one or two more—normally the latter—but today colleagues have asked other, more important questions, which I look forward to addressing. The hon. Lady’s speech also felt a little like a tour of Reigate, which I really enjoyed. There are clearly some excellent pubs there, so I very much look forward to visiting.

As the hon. Lady says, there is a long-term trend of communities losing important local assets that foster community cohesion. That has a knock-on impact on people’s satisfaction with the place they live in, and the strength of local communities. One of the defining features of this Parliament will likely be how well the Government and Parliament address that. We have to give communities agency over a place, and address the sense of decline that feeds that anger and loss. We recognise that there are good opportunities for communities to take over these assets and operate them successfully for the community. That allows people to continue to benefit from the places that matter most to them, and empowers communities to shape their area. What better example could there be of a community facility than a pub? As the hon. Lady says, pubs are at the heart of our communities, and serve as crucial community assets. They support local economies and provide spaces for community gatherings, and the best pubs offer essential services, as we have heard, such as support for vulnerable individuals. They foster a sense of community pride and help us tackle loneliness and social isolation.

It was clear from the hon. Member’s contribution how passionate she is about supporting local pubs and the industry more generally. As we admirably heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee), the best pubs competition is a great way of recognising the importance of these assets—in Surrey in the hon. Lady’s case, and in Newcastle-under-Lyme in my hon. Friend’s case. Clearly, the hon. Lady’s constituents valued the competition, too. Judging from what she said, it is not a surprise that the Garibaldi was successful, and I congratulate the pub.

[Adam Jogee]

As and when the good people of Newcastle-under-Lyme confirm the best pub of 2025, will the Minister come and have a pint? I will buy the first round.

[Alex Norris]

I would not want the inducement to be seen as my reason for saying yes, although it is an attractive part of the offer. Of course, I will happily come. [Interruption.] I owe the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) a trip to Newtownards, because on the day of the Retail NI high street awards, I awarded the win to Ballymena rather than Newtownards, and have felt a sense of loss ever since. I will also come and join him.

[Adam Jogee]

I am very grateful to the Minister for his indulgence in giving way. It would not be a free pint, because I have a long list of things that I want him to help me get sorted for the people of Newcastle-under-Lyme.

[Alex Norris]

I have absolutely no doubt about that; nor do I doubt that my hon. Friend will take on those problems with vigour.

The hon. Member for Reigate talked about the community ownership fund. I acknowledge the important work that it has done over our time in government and before. As she says, since 2021, it has awarded a total of over £135 million to 409 projects across the UK. In total, the fund has supported 52 local pubs with £13.7 million of funding. Those pubs will bring significant benefits to their communities. Those numbers are in the aggregate, but each pub is a community asset retained, adds huge value, and brings much joy.

Let me highlight a couple of pubs that we awarded funding to in the December round. We awarded £300,000 to the Rectory in Chesterfield. The funding will secure the future of that vital community pub and social hub. It will also be used to create a wellness space and provide a home for a local community radio station—what a great way to spend public money. Similarly, the Swan community project in Tonbridge was awarded £300,000 in December to support the purchase of the Swan pub and for start-up and renovation costs. That pub has now been purchased, and will serve as a community hub that reduces isolation and improves social cohesion and wellbeing in the rural community. It will also provide work experience opportunities to those in the community. That is a great example of how quite a small amount of public money, in the grand scheme of things, can have a huge social benefit.

I know from colleagues that there is considerable interest—I get written questions and correspondence on this each week—in what might come next. Colleagues will know that we have a multi-year spending review inbound, so there is a limit to what I can say, but there will be further announcements relating to communities this year, including on the community ownership of assets. However, there are things that people can use at the moment. I encourage any community groups seeking funding to preserve their assets, and to continue to use the guidance and tools available from the community ownership fund development support provider on the MyCommunity site. Those tools are rooted in the experiences of lots of community assets. Some of those community assets are state-funded; some have been able to secure funding from elsewhere. There is a lot to learn from that, and I encourage community groups to do so.

I would be very interested in meeting the hon. Member for Reigate (Rebecca Paul) to talk about the Garibaldi—perhaps in the Garibaldi, or perhaps, in the interests of business, somewhere else first, although I would be very happy to retire to the Garibaldi afterwards—and what support the Department can give. There is another important community intervention that our Government have introduced: the £1.5 billion plan for neighbourhoods. It will deliver up to £20 million of funding and support over the next decade to 75 communities across the UK, to kick-start local growth and drive up living standards. The Government have a commitment to working in partnership with residents, business, grassroots campaigners and local authorities to deliver the priorities of local people and drive renewal. As I have said multiple times from the Dispatch Box, we want less of us and more of local communities, because they are the experts.

There are already lots of pre-approved interventions in the prospectus that areas can take forward to support their local pubs. There is support for developing, restoring or refurbishing local cultural and heritage assets and sites, such as pubs, including for new uses by the community, as well as grants for the development, promotion and upkeep of local tourist attractions. We heard from the hon. Lady a couple of examples of historical pubs in her community. That is the sort of thing that the plan for neighbourhoods money can be spent on. There is also, more broadly, the opportunity to spend funding on wraparound support for local businesses. That could be used to help upgrade infrastructure to make energy savings—the hon. Lady talked about the challenge of overheads. Lots of things in the plan for neighbourhoods could help.

More broadly, for communities that are not in the plan, we have the community right to buy and high street rental auctions. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Chris McDonald) talked about the community right to buy. He seemed particularly excited about it, and we fought hard for it to be part of the Labour party manifesto at the last general election. Through the English devolution Bill, we will introduce that strong new right to buy for valued community assets such as empty shops, pubs, and community spaces. This will empower local people to bring community spaces back into community ownership, and end the blight of empty premises.

[Alex Norris]

That is a great use. The high street is going to change, and the degree to which we can foment such change will be a defining feature of this Parliament. That change will not be a restoration of how things were 20 or 30 years ago; it will be about reimagining the space. Leisure will be a particularly good use of the space. They could be used by microbreweries, such as—I am going to do it now—the Bulls Well in Bulwell, just down the road from my constituency office. I vowed I wouldn’t, but I couldn’t resist. There will be other places used for leisure purposes more generally. I am very enthusiastic about boutique bingo; that can bring life to the high street as well.

Now for a perfect segue: there is a real opportunity for right hon. and hon. colleagues here, or those watching online or reading this later, in high street rental auctions. They are a really good way of doing exactly what hon. Members suggest. We need new powers for local authorities to require landlords to rent out persistently vacant commercial units. The types of entities that we are talking about could fill those spaces, get their first toe on to the ladder, and develop their businesses.

[Adam Jogee]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wonder whether you will be able to give us a flavour of the pubs in Romsey and Southampton North. We feel sure that that would add to the debate this evening.

Contribution of Muslims to Communities

Debate between Adam Jogee and Alex Norris

Thursday 13th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Alex Norris)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Dr Ahmed) for securing this debate during such an important time for Muslim communities. What a pleasure it is to follow a speech that was thoughtful and reflective, but also challenging to us all in this place and in particular to us as a Govt. I look forward to feeding back on some of the points he raised. And I will, of course, take him up on his invitation to visit—I never miss a chance to go to Glasgow.

This debate is perfectly timed. It is only right that we honour and celebrate the contribution of British Muslim communities during the month of Ramadan, a time of reflection, devotion and communities. We have had a little tour in this debate: we started in Glasgow, but we have also been to Newcastle-under-Lyme, Weston-super-Mare and the east of London, and now I am adding a little bit of Nottingham. For Muslims across the UK and around the world, Ramadan will be a sacred period of fasting, prayer and charity. It is also a time that brings people together, strengthening bonds between neighbours, colleagues and friends of all faiths and beliefs, and of none.

Here in the UK, we see the vibrancy of Ramadan reflected in our public life: in this debate today, the Ramadan lights on Oxford Street, the historic Iftar recently hosted at Windsor Castle, and the many gatherings taking place across the country. They show how deeply embedded and richly valued these traditions are within our national culture. I think of my own in Nottingham. I think of the Al-Khazra mosque and how it throws its doors open during Ramadan because it is a good time for people are curious, perhaps about what they are reading and seeing, to come and understand Islam. Of course, food is always a great draw there, because it is fantastic. I also think of the work that Mufti Ahmed Peerbhai does to get people in, including myself, to learn about Islam and to talk and to educate, which is very, very important work. Ministers across the Government are honoured to be joining Iftars throughout this month, celebrating the richness of our communities and the values of compassion and generosity that Ramadan embodies, and, as my hon. Friend mentions, the Prime Minister is hosting an Iftar at Downing Street tonight.

It is also particularly fitting to have this debate during Muslim Heritage Month. This is a great moment to reflect on the immense contributions Muslims have made to Britain, past and present. Islam and Muslims have been part of Britain for centuries, from the early 1700s and the small communities of Muslim sailors and traders from Assam, Bengal, Gujarat and Yemen. Outside the port communities of east London—we have heard from colleagues from east London—South Shields and Liverpool and the community in Woking, Surrey, Muslim populations remained small. Indeed, it is surprising to hear that the first mosque in London did not open until 1895. As my hon. Friend noted in his own powerful personal story, it was only after the second world war, when many former soldiers answered the call to help rebuild the nation, that our Muslim populations grew substantially. From the soldiers who fought alongside British forces in both world wars to the innovators shaping our future today, the legacy of British Muslims is one of resilience, dedication and excellence.

I am furious that my hon. Friend has beaten me to the opportunity to embarrass you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am sure you do not want us to highlight your own personal achievements, but they are very important. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] You were, of course, the first female Muslim Minister to stand at this very Dispatch Box, and you are now the first Muslim person to sit in that Chair as Deputy Speaker. I think of the people who watch these debates and the importance they will place on that. Certainly, we think of the young girls and boys who will see you and see your example, and know that if you can do it, perhaps they can do it, too. To those who are watching I say, “You can, you must and you should. There are lots of very good examples in Parliament of people who look and sound like you who have done so much for our country and our democracy.”

We want to recognise that history. The Government are committed to doing so, which is why we support the creation of a Muslim war memorial. It will stand as a lasting tribute to the courage and sacrifice of Muslims who served Britain in times of conflict, ensuring that their contributions—too often forgotten—are finally given the recognition they deserve. We intend for the memorial to include an educational element to ensure that people of all backgrounds and ages are able to learn about and understand the sacrifices made by Muslims in the British armed forces during the two world wars and beyond.

Turning to the theme of the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West clearly set out the contribution that Muslims make to the UK, but I will add a little bit myself, too. Whether in business, the arts, science or healthcare, British Muslims are at the forefront of progress and innovation. Their contributions to the economy are substantial, with Muslim-led businesses generating billions of pounds and creating thousands of jobs. A recent report by the Equi think-tank estimated that British Muslims generate £70 billion a year for the UK economy through income, business and charitable giving.

I think of Himmah, a charity in Nottingham that was recently awarded the King’s Award, with its food bank and what it does for my community to ensure that people where we live do not go hungry. I am looking forward—if that is the right word—to running the London marathon next month to raise funds for Himmah. I really, really wish I had started training. I currently don’t own a pair of trainers, which I believe is an impediment to the exercise.

That same Equi report noted the huge contribution that Muslims make to our public services, including education, social care and emergency response, filling more than 46,000 roles across our NHS, delivering essential care to our sick and elderly. Of course, my hon. Friend is a shining example of that—a surgeon who has made such a difference to so many people at the most challenging moments. We are very lucky to have had him serve in our NHS, and we are very lucky to have him serve in our legislature, too.

[Adam Jogee]

I wish the Minister all the best for running the London marathon—my father did it five times in the 1980s, so I am happy to get some tips for him after the debate. As he talks about the contribution made by the Muslim community up and down our country, would he join me in expressing a note of disappointment that there is not a single Member from any opposition party on their Benches this afternoon? We are meant to be one United Kingdom, speaking for all communities, and it is a real disappointment that nobody else is present to listen.

[Alex Norris]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the kind offer of support. I have to say, I am not generally one for policing colleagues’ diaries, but I hope that during this period, colleagues from all political parties and none are able to use their platform positively to promote the important work of Britain’s Muslim community and to fight the rise of Islamophobia, which I will turn to shortly.

Before I do, I want to reflect on two things that my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West mentioned. First, London is the west’s Islamic finance capital, with UK-based Islamic banks controlling assets worth nearly £6 billion, which is 85% of the total assets in Europe—what a great success story that is for our country. Secondly, I want to mention the practice of Zakat and the extraordinary charitable giving of British Muslims, who donate millions every year to support those in need, both at home and abroad. As my hon. Friend has said, British Muslims give four times more to charity than the average UK adult, donating more than £700 a year. During Ramadan alone, we can expect contributions to exceed £100 million—what a lifeline that is for those who receive that funding.

Civil society also benefits immensely from the leadership and activism of Muslim communities; I think of the Muslim councillors on my local authority, as well as colleagues in this place. It goes much deeper, too, with remarkable contributions to volunteerism and social welfare. Whether it is supporting food banks, as I mentioned, supporting homeless shelters, mentoring young people or engaging in community outreach, their service embodies the values of generosity and civic duty that strengthen our society and foster social cohesion, in a nice intersection between faith and our national values—I think we would like to think that those are British values, too.

None the less, as my hon. Friend has said, we know that, despite invaluable contributions, Muslim communities continue to face discrimination and prejudice within our society. Anti-Muslim hatred remains a real and persistent issue, affecting the lives of many. My hon. Friend talked about online hatred, and also about creeping normalisations, and we should stand against that, and we, as a Government, most certainly do so. It is impossible not to go back, certainly with the sixth anniversary of the horrific Christchurch terror attacks being on Saturday. That was a stark reminder of how online hatred can fuel real world violence. I remember being at Al-Khazra mosque in the days following the attack, talking to Muslim constituents and, indeed, to those who, like me, came in solidarity. They told me about their fears and how they felt when faced with the reality that that could have been them at Friday prayers. We also talked about the things that we had to do to stand against such terror and to make sure that they were safe in our city.

We have recently established a new working group to define and tackle anti-Muslim hatred and Islamophobia. I hope that this initiative reflects our unwavering commitment to ensuring that all communities in the UK can live free from discrimination and fear. My hon. Friend asked for a little more detail on this. As he said, the group is being chaired by Dominic Grieve KC, once of this place, which is really positive. The group will advise Government on how best to understand, quantify and define prejudice, discrimination and hate crime targeted at Muslims.

The context behind the establishment of this group is the fact that hate crime is at a record high in England and Wales, which is why we think that this is an issue that requires urgent attention. The work of the group will be measured in months rather than years. We want its members to come back to us as swiftly as possible to help shape our Government’s response to make sure that we are truly standing up against the rise of this hatred.

[Adam Jogee]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister again. He talked about the work of the group taking months, which is the correct approach as we want to make sure that this is done properly. Will he explain how Members of this House can feed into the process, so that we can be sure that the experiences that our constituents raise with us are also raised with the group?

[Alex Norris]

That is an excellent question. I will make sure that colleagues, through the Minister for Faith, Lord Khan, are able to have that opportunity. We are very good conduits of information and insight, because we see this every day in our constituencies, and, by definition, we cover the entire community. That is an excellent idea, which I shall make sure comes to fruition.

In conclusion, Ramadan reminds us of our shared values: kindness, unity and a commitment to justice. During this important time for British Muslim communities, the Government reaffirm their dedication to building a society where everyone, regardless of background or belief, is valued and respected. I hope that all those observing this debate have seen the strength of feeling across the House. I say to them, Ramadan Mubarak. May this month bring them peace, strength and countless blessings.

Question put and agreed to.