Public Sector Bodies (Websites and Mobile Applications) Accessibility (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2022
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, the main purpose of these amending regulations, laid before the House on 18 July, is to update the Public Sector Bodies (Websites and Mobile Applications) (No. 2) Accessibility Regulations 2018 so that they can continue to operate given that the UK has left the European Union. This instrument is technical. It does not introduce new policy but moves the implementation detail of the legislation from being set by the European Commission to being set in the UK. These amendments will not reduce any of the UK’s standards and support for disabled people, nor add any additional burdens to the UK’s public sector. The changes will allow the UK to be more responsive to the needs of disabled people when they use public sector websites and online services.
“Digital accessibility” refers to principles and techniques to follow when you design, build, maintain and update websites and mobile applications to make them as easy as possible for people to use. This applies in particular to making websites and apps that disabled people can use. There should be no disadvantage when using assistive technology with computers, tablets and mobile phones, such as switch controls for a computer rather than a keyboard and mouse or screen-magnification software.
I shall give some examples. A blind student should be able to access their university’s website through a screen reader, find out their timetable and download course information and lecture notes. A business owner with arthritis who uses speech recognition rather than a keyboard should be able to log on and pay their taxes. We all have access needs at some time in our lives, and we expect to be able to continue to use public services ourselves, independently.
The accessibility regulations build on existing UK legislation and commitments, such as the Equality Act 2010 in England, Scotland and Wales, and the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 in Northern Ireland, which place duties on service providers to make reasonable adjustments for disabled people when providing services and exercising public functions.
The 2018 regulations that this instrument amends were transposed from EU directive 2016/2102, which requires public sector bodies to make their websites and mobile applications accessible unless it would impose a disproportionate burden on the public sector body to do so.
The regulations can also place obligations on the Minister for the Cabinet Office, including monitoring of the public sector to ensure that the regulations are being met, and sending a report to the European Union every three years, detailing what has been found during the monitoring.
The implementation of these monitoring and reporting obligations was harmonised so that implementation was similar across EU member states and so that there could be comparison between countries. This harmonisation is no longer required, and the specified monitoring process has been inefficient to implement. These amendments move the monitoring process from being defined in a European Commission implementing decision to being set by the UK Government. The model accessibility statement that websites and mobile apps need to publish is also moved to be set by the UK Government.
Although the UK is no longer party to the discussions within the EU about best practice in implementing these policies and how the European Commission will update its monitoring and reporting process, the UK will continue to iterate the monitoring based on our research, analysis and findings. The monitoring team in the Government Digital Service continues to share experience and knowledge with other countries around the world with similar policies and will update the monitoring process as new technology becomes available.
The first report was due to be sent to the EU in December 2021. Instead, the Minister for the Cabinet Office published a report on GOV.UK, and the amendments in question alter the obligation, allowing the same procedure to be followed in the future. This ensures that the monitoring and the effectiveness of the regulations are transparent to all.
The 2018 regulations use a European technical standard as the definition of the accessibility requirements placed on the public sector. This standard is controlled by the European Commission and is subject to its funding and timeframes. Practically, this standard mainly references an international standard called the web content accessibility guidelines, created and published by the World Wide Web Consortium.
These amendments would move the technical standard to this international standard, which is far better known, used by digital accessibility experts and open for all to contribute to. Updates to this standard may be quicker to implement in the UK than when we followed the previous European process, which included updating the European standard and creation and ratification of an EC implementing decision.
These regulations are made under Section 8 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which allows a Minister to make regulations to resolve any deficiencies in law that arise as a result of the UK’s departure from the European Union. The technical standard, monitoring and reporting methodology and the model accessibility statement were set through the European Commission implementing decisions. The UK no longer adopts new implementing Acts, so changes to these Acts no longer take effect in the UK. This instrument removes the links to the Commission’s implementing Acts and replaces them with UK-set implementations, as mentioned previously. Three European Commission implementing decisions will be revoked once the amendments are made.
With these explanations, I hope that noble Lords will join me in supporting these draft regulations. I commend them to the Committee.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, I have some questions and rather a strong comment. It is clearly convenient that we do not diverge too far from the existing European regulations. I should like to ask whether there is much divergence. There is a good deal of reference here to the World Wide Web Consortium, which attempts to set the standards. It is an interesting body, not entirely intergovernmental, and operates, I assume, by consensus. Are the Government entirely happy with the way in which the World Wide Web Consortium operates, or are there any problems? I know that the Government are concerned about rising Chinese influence within the World Wide Web Consortium.
Do the standards that the United States, for example, sets in this particularly technical area differ considerably from those set within the European Union? One of the challenges that we face in reshaping our regulatory patterns as we leave the European Union is how far we simply follow the United States instead or whether we continue to keep as close as possible to the European Union. I note in this area that a high proportion of British citizens who retire overseas retire within the European Union. If we are looking at something relevant to the disabled and the elderly, therefore, it would make a great deal of difference to ensure that we do not diverge too far from the European Union.
My final comment and objection draws on the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee comment that the proposals move down from legislative processes to administrative purposes. This, after all, is something that the Government are doing across a whole range of legislation: lessening the ability of Parliament to scrutinise, lessening accountability to Parliament and, indeed, as a number of the Minister’s right-wing colleagues mentioned in the Northern Ireland protocol debate earlier this week, asserting executive sovereignty against parliamentary sovereignty.
I suspect the Minister is among those unhappy with this trend. I should like him to take back to his colleagues that, given the extent of this gradual slide towards lessening parliamentary accountability and giving greater ministerial discretion across the board— something we are also dealing with in the Procurement Bill and a number of other Bills before the House—there will come a point when the House stands up and objects to SIs. I will take back to my party group whether, if it comes before the House, we should draw the attention of the House to this element of reducing parliamentary scrutiny. There is behind these technical and entirely suitable regulations a larger constitutional issue of how we maintain parliamentary democracy, rather than executive government, in this country.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Committee once again for its interest in these regulations. I thank all those who have spoken for doing so in broad support for them. The Government are committed to improving the everyday lives of disabled people, and access to public information and services is vital. I shall be touching on some themes that were raised on this issue in a moment. This instrument makes sure that the public sector remains accessible to all as it moves online.
I have no answer to give on the point raised the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, about the Brexit freedoms Bill. I do not have any information on that, but she will probably respect that we have had a few noises off and there may have been a few distractions. If I have some information for the noble Baroness before the end of my remarks, I will certainly pass it on.
A number of questions were raised. I shall start by touching on the point about the monitoring process. The European Commission-set monitoring process was designed more for harmonisation across countries rather than effectiveness. The monitoring process will be iterated to have more impact on the least accessible websites, and on sites and services that disabled people may use more often. I think these were points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and my noble friend Lord Holmes.
The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, spoke about the differences between the EU and the UK. His core question was: are we deviating? The World Wide Web Consortium is an open organisation, as he knows. All can contribute and there is a process for technical experts to ratify. It is interesting that the similar US regulations use an older version of the international standard—2.0 versus 2.1. The EU also bases its standard on the international standard, so the variation is minimal and practically follows the WCAG standard.
The noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and my noble friend Lord Holmes asked particularly about the material differences between the EAS and the IWAS—the European and international versions of the standard. I can reassure them that they are minor and are really variations on mobile accessibility. I hope that answer is of some help.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
Can I ask the Minister a question? We are concerned about how much influence we have in these international organisations. Paragraph 7.15 of the Explanatory Memorandum says:
“The UK Government can influence updates to the standard as a member of the World Wide Web Commission.”
It would be nicer if it said “does influence”. Are we happy with the influence we have in this rather odd mixed private, university and intergovernmental organisation?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I cannot answer that. I imagine we are but, if we are not or if there is any issue arising from that, I will write to the noble Lord. I assume that we are happy with that, but he raises a fair point.
My noble friend Lord Holmes asked about Parliament, its role and why it is not keeping responsibility for updating the version of the technical standard. I reassure him that the international standard is updated relatively frequently, with a new version due next year. The standard is open for all to contribute to and goes through extensive review by industry experts. We think it may not be the best use of parliamentary time to require further legislation every time it is updated.
My noble friend also requested a response to his concerns about the movement of power away from Parliament. We are happy to write with a response. He also asked about enforcement of the regulations. The Equality and Human Rights Commission enforces digital accessibility in England, Scotland and Wales, and the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland enforces it in Northern Ireland. Both have taken steps to make sure that public sector bodies meet these regulations.
This allows me to talk more generally about inclusion or the lack of it, perhaps. This was raised particularly by the noble Baronesses, Lady Chapman and Lady Uddin, and my noble friend Lord Holmes. I can give some reassurance: this is one of the great priorities of the Government. The UK Digital Strategy, published by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport in June, includes plans to strengthen the digital education pipeline as well as to provide essential digital skills training. The Department for Education is delivering free learning and qualifications for adults with low digital skills.
A question was asked about the national disability strategy, which allows me to expand a little on what I just said. In January 2022, the High Court declared that the strategy was unlawful, because the UK disability survey, which informed it, was held to be a voluntary consultation that failed to comply with the legal requirements of public consultations. The Government strongly disagree with the finding and the Work and Pensions Secretary of State has sought permission to appeal the High Court’s declaration. We are awaiting the Court of Appeal’s decision on whether that permission is granted. That provides an update on what is clearly a challenging situation—that is probably the best way to put it.
I believe I have answered the majority of questions. I have an answer on the Brexit freedoms Bill which I have already given, so I will write to the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, because there is no more information on that. I understand her concern. With that, I beg to move.
Prime Minister: Meetings with First Ministers of the Devolved Governments
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I certainly cannot say that they have talked specifically about homelessness, but, as a result of the improved co-operation and the increased number of meetings between the Governments, all matters of importance will be discussed during the rollout of the IGR during 2022.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, do the Minister and his colleagues recognise the impact on citizens in Yorkshire, the north-west and the north-east of England of the constant discussion of what is happening in London, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales and the neglect of what is happening in the other parts of England? Will Ministers take into account the regional dimension of the dominant part of the United Kingdom in the White Paper on levelling up, or will they continue to insist on imposing governors on counties and mayors on other regions?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
Levelling up all corners of the UK is at the heart of this Government’s agenda, and the White Paper, to be published early this year, will set out an ambitious vision to improve living standards, increase opportunity and grow the private sector in all parts of the UK. This will take account of the noble Lord’s question on Yorkshire.
UK-US Trade Deal Negotiating Objectives
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I agree with my noble friend that the Asian market is very important. I mentioned Japan earlier, which he will know is very much on the agenda. There is, of course, more to do in Asia, but I go back to the statistic that I gave earlier: we intend, over the next three years, to cover 80% of our trade deals. That, I would argue, is a very good start. It is right that we are starting not just with the EU but also with the US. It is on the basis that the US, clearly, is on our side: it wants to secure a deal as well.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, I must comment on the comparative tone of the two Statements we have had on the negotiations with the European Union and the United States. The announcement on the relations with the EU insisted several times that we expected the European Union to treat us as a sovereign equal. Can the Minister assure us that we will similarly expect the United States to treat us as a sovereign equal? The phrasing was, instead, that the United States is our closest ally, which I think is code for saying, “We expect them to be nice to us because they like us.” Is it not more likely that, in trade issues, the United States will be as transactional as the European Union is likely to be? I remember during a conference on transatlantic trade some years ago a Democratic Congressman saying to me, “People of my district are entirely in favour of free trade provided they do not have to accept any more imports”. That is the problem right there.
One of the biggest consultations on future trade relations for Britain was the balance of competences exercise during the coalition on the relations between the UK and the EU. The overwhelming sense from the returns, including those from the Scotch Whisky Association, whose director at that point was David Frost, was that the balance of competences between the EU and the UK suited our industry and our services very well. The Conservative part of the coalition, by and large, wished to ignore that consultation and carry on.
I also note that on digital regulation, we now
“have the opportunity to help shape global rules through ambitious digital trade provisions.”
That means we clearly expect to share in shaping US regulations in the way that we do not think we can in the EU. Can the noble Lord explain that contradiction?
Yorkshire: Devolution
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Wallace of Saltaire(4 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the city region model simply does not fit North Yorkshire? When I asked the last Minister responsible for this how he defined a city region for North Yorkshire, he said it is a rural region that will have a virtual city. The extent to which one model is being pushed on various parts of England seems not only undemocratic but illogical.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I point out to the noble Lord that, as I said, this is driven by those in the area.
Veterans: Investigations
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, I note that the Statement intends to separate the issue of what has happened in Northern Ireland from the responsibility of soldiers in conflict. While one cannot be entirely left on one side, I note that the Secretary of State for Defence talked in her RUSI speech yesterday—I hope that the Northern Ireland Office was consulted beforehand—about the importance of defending “the rules-based order” in the world. That of course includes the laws of war, so that in the very rare cases where British soldiers do not obey the laws of war they have to be held responsible. The Government, who pursue people for war crimes in the Balkans and elsewhere, must recognise that we cannot take our own forces entirely outside the laws of war. I emphasise that the Stormont House agreement was extremely important and that all sides in Northern Ireland, as I understand it, are committed to it. I encourage the Government to pursue as fast as possible the publication of the consultation and the establishment of the arrangements and institutions set out in the agreement.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
The noble Lord is right to the extent that we also wish to come back on the results of the consultation. He will understand that it takes time with 17,000 responses—a lot are very sensitive and a lot are long exposés and letters going back to terrible experiences—but we want to come out with a detailed response to the consultation as soon as possible. As he alluded to, we owe great gratitude for the heroism and bravery of our Armed Forces. We take seriously the issue of the prosecution of veterans. The Prime Minister is fully aware of the strength of feeling on this, both in Parliament and among the public. However, nobody is above the law—we should take that very seriously, particularly in this country. The point has been made that there is a difference in terms of our brave soldiers fighting in Northern Ireland as opposed to in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Universities: BAME Women in Leadership Positions
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Viscount Younger of Leckie
It is a good question from the noble Lord. I asked that very question, about what the definitions are for those universities that are part of the Russell group and for the rest of the universities in the UK—and there is not one. I acknowledge, however, the point the House has made: of the total academic staff at Russell group universities for 2017 to 2018, 11% were male professors and 3% were female professors. There is more work to be done to put pressure on the Russell group universities.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a former Russell group university teacher. Is the problem, particularly for women and women from ethnic minorities, not undergraduate recruitment, but getting through the graduate student and post-doc stage? Would the Government, in collaboration with HEFCE, look at adequate funding for people through that difficult process, as well as informal discrimination against young women as opposed to young men, which I certainly saw as a graduate student supervisor from time to time?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
The noble Lord is right. It is not so much for HEFCE now, but there should be collaboration between the Office for Students, Universities UK, UCU and other bodies, working together to make progress in this area.
Arts: Impact of Brexit
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I have to take note of the noble Lord’s points. He has been assiduous in making these points over not just weeks but many months. However, I can only take note, and I come back to where we stand. It is much more for my colleagues in DExEU to make these points, but that is how we sit. I am afraid that that is what I have to say to the noble Lord.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
The Minister should know that it is a question of urgency. The briefings we have all had pointed out that arts organisations have to plan up to two or three years ahead. The Minister gave the answer that the Government are thinking about when they might be able to tell us something about what they hope to negotiate with the European Union at some point before the end of the implementation period. That is a very long period of uncertainty, which will damage our entire cultural sector. Can he not give us some sense of timing and urgency?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
The noble Lord is pushing me. I realise that he raised this point in his speech, but I am not able to give a definitive timetable and I hope that he will respect that. In fact, if there was such a timetable, it would have been made by Ministers other than myself. I reassure him again that discussions are continuing intensely in the channels that he will know about. We await announcements.
Part-time Study
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, have the Government considered the link between immigration, particularly from the rest of the European Union, and the shortage of medium skills at all levels? I see FE colleges being cut back as well as part-time education. I am very conscious that, across Yorkshire, companies find it easier to recruit directly from Slovakia or Poland than train their own people. The new apprenticeships scheme, as the Minister will know, has led to an immediate drop in new apprentices being taken on last year, so this will not help. Investing in training, part-time and full-time, for the 50% of our people who do not go to university is not only key to our economy but key to reducing the pull factor in immigration, which comes from companies recruiting directly from abroad.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
We should look at life from a more positive angle. The noble Lord mentioned the apprenticeship levy, which is just one of several apprenticeship or levy schemes that are ongoing, particularly if we look at the construction sector, which is very important indeed. The objective is to home grow our own skills.
Public Bodies: Appointments
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I appreciate what my noble friend says but I am not going to be drawn into that because the issue at hand is what we are doing about these issues. We are taking action. We recognise the need to learn from this campaign and accept that our due diligence for Toby Young was not extensive enough. We are reviewing our due diligence and the Department for Education has established, as I said earlier, a nominations committee.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, I am sure the Minister will accept that the argument, “Well, you lot were as bad as we are,” is not one of the best defences one could offer. Given that this Government are committed both to greater transparency in government and to restoring parliamentary sovereignty, is it not time to consider that at least the chairs of public bodies appointed by the Government ought to be confirmed by parliamentary committees? To take a clear example, I can recall that successive appointments to the chair of the Charity Commission, under both Labour and Conservative Governments, have been challenged and deeply controversial. There is going to be unavoidable controversy in such an area, and it would be appropriate to lessen the partisanship of the criticism by submitting such appointments to the approval of a parliamentary committee.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I take note of the noble Lord’s views. I think that the Government would be grateful for many views in this respect because many public appointments can be controversial, and that has been the case not just during this Government’s time in office but during successive previous Governments. However, the Cabinet Office is looking at these matters seriously and the Centre for Public Appointments is working with all government departments to provide greater clarity on the principles around due diligence and appointments.
Apprenticeships
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Viscount Younger of Leckie
There are a number of initiatives. For example, the DfE and the Department for Transport are looking at ways to ease young apprentices’ travel from home to work. That could take the form of providing extra money or practical ways of getting them to work. It is important that young apprentices are not put off taking up this great opportunity to get a good start in life.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, are the Government aware of the scepticism I have encountered when talking to people in Yorkshire involved in this area over whether the new apprenticeship scheme really will be used to encourage 18 year-old school leavers to take up new apprenticeships as their first job rather than companies using it to upskill those they already employ? Can the noble Viscount assure us that the Government will make every effort to develop links with schools to ensure that children are helped to make the transition to work, particularly in areas such as the construction industry where skills are in desperately short supply?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
The noble Lord is correct: in Britain we desperately need to grow certain skills ourselves. Encouraging employers to go into schools is very much work in progress. The Careers & Enterprise Company has pushed for employers to go into schools to talk to young people about opportunities. Linked to that, the traineeships, which the noble Lord will know about, provide quality training for thousands of young people who need to develop initial skills to help them into the pipeline of getting into apprenticeships and on into a meaningful career.
Apprenticeships: Training Providers
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Wallace of Saltaire(6 years, 11 months ago)
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Viscount Younger of Leckie
The noble Baroness makes an interesting point but we believe that there is enough flexibility in the system. A lot of work is being done with the Institute for Apprenticeships and with employers on the design of apprenticeships to ensure that the approach and the job descriptions are correct for the individual sectors. I know that the noble Baroness has a lot of experience in the creative sectors, which we are looking at very closely.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that in Bradford a social housing association runs an excellent training scheme for the building trades? It took 10 people this year and has had 400 applications. When there is so much unfulfilled demand—particularly from what we have to call the white working class—obviously there is still something wrong. I am told that in Yorkshire the big building companies still prefer to recruit already-trained people from outside Britain rather than go to the expense and trouble of doing their own training. That is clearly a major problem. Can the Government assure us that the new apprenticeship levy will push companies like that into training our own people?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I hope I can give the noble Lord that assurance. The construction sector is particularly important. Regarding the temporary drop that we have seen, 3,000 apprenticeship vacancies have been posted this month by 40 employers. So I think this comes back to the point that employers are taking their time—which they need to do—working with HMRC and the Treasury to bed in these new changes.
Armed Forces: East of Suez
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Wallace of Saltaire(7 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proportion of the United Kingdom’s Armed Forces will be deployed east of Suez, in the light of the Foreign Secretary’s speech in New Delhi on 18 January.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, a significant proportion of the UK’s Armed Forces are deployed in the Gulf. As the Prime Minister said last December, Gulf security is our security. This figure fluctuates according to operational demand. However, with the advent of major exercise programmes, British defence staff in Dubai, the regional land training hub in Oman and the UK naval facility in Bahrain, we will have the permanence and presence to deepen our partnerships in the region.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, it is 50 years since the then Government announced that we would withdraw from east of Suez. They published a White Paper and there was substantial debate in the Houses of Parliament. The Foreign Secretary, first in Bahrain and then in Delhi, has spoken of deploying an aircraft carrier group to the Indian Ocean and of Diego Garcia being a major UK and US base. I am told that to maintain an aircraft carrier group in the Indian Ocean would take almost half the surface vessels available in the fleet. Presumably, there would be a significant air and land element on Diego Garcia. Will the Government bring this major shift in policy to Parliament, or does the MoD think that the Foreign Secretary was speaking a little out of turn and a little unbriefed?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, there is no question but that the UK and US military facility in Diego Garcia contributes significantly towards regional and global security. The UK footprint may not be major in size, but it represents a significant contribution to our bilateral defence and security relationship with the US. At the moment the Royal Navy has 41 personnel permanently deployed in Diego Garcia, with a capacity to surge that for contingent operations in the wider region from 2021. That could include a carrier strike task group, should the situation change.