People with Disabilities: Access to Services

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Thursday 16th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I think that it will go a very long way. We are looking seriously at getting the information out quickly—the link with HMRC is incredibly important here. We already get real-time information from HMRC anyway. We are asking the same question: what more can we do to be sure that those who do not let us know, for whatever reason, will do so? We also must not forget that the vast majority do let us know. This is a very important point. I believe that there will be a Question in the House next week on this issue, which I will be willing and ready to answer.

The subject of work was raised in particular by my noble friend Lord Shinkwin. This Government will always protect the most vulnerable, but we must also do everything possible to support those who can to move into work. I echo the Prime Minister’s speech at the Centre for Social Justice on 19 April, which I attended:

“The role of the welfare state should never be merely to provide financial support … but to help people overcome whatever barriers they might face to living an independent, fulfilling life”.


That is why we are supporting thousands more disabled people to start, stay and succeed in work through our £2.5 billion back to work plan. That includes exploring reforms to the fit-note process through the call for evidence—another theme raised today—and rolling out WorkWell, to bring together local health and employment support. Questions were raised today about who is best placed to make health assessments for work. I do not intend to go further on that, but we may well receive some information through the conversation and the PIP consultation on that subject.

From 2025, we will reform the work capability assessment to reflect new flexibilities in the labour market while maintaining protections for those with the most serious conditions. My noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond and others raised the disability employment gap. The Government have an ambitious programme of initiatives to support disabled people and people with health conditions. The disability employment rate was 52.9% in the first quarter of 2024, compared to 81.7% for non-disabled people. For disabled people, that is an increase of 0.1 percentage points. The disability employment gap was 28.8 percentage points in the first quarter of 2024, a decrease of 0.6 percentage points on the year before.

We are also expanding access to mental health treatment, with nearly 400,000 additional places through NHS talking therapies, which I think the House will be well aware of. All this builds on existing support, such as Access to Work grants, our Disability Confident scheme and disability employment advisers in jobcentres.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Donaghy and Lady Hughes, asked what the Government are doing to help those in poverty. There is a long answer I could give, but the short answer, which I think I have given in the House before, is that we are committed to supporting people on lower incomes and expect to spend around £303 billion through the welfare system in Great Britain in 2024-25, including around £138 billion on people of working age and their children. These statistics cover 2022-23, a year when inflation averaged 10% and benefits were uprated by 3.1%, in line with the CPI.

On the disabled, the latest statistics show that the number of people in families where someone is disabled and in absolute poverty—which is our preferred measure—fell by 100,000 between 2021-22 and 2022-23. The proportion of people in families where someone is disabled and in absolute poverty after housing costs has decreased by two percentage points since 2019-20, and the number of people in such families has increased slightly due to an increase in the number of people in families where someone is disabled.

Briefly, on education, which I think was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, and others, in the special educational needs and disability sector our improvement plan will establish a single national system so that children can achieve good outcomes. We have increased high-needs revenue funding for children and young people with complex needs to cover £10.5 billion this year, up 60% over the last five years. The Law Commission is also undertaking a review of disabled children’s social care legislation to help clarify the law and to ensure that families of disabled children receive the support that they need. I hope that this may help address the remarks from the noble Lord, Lord Addington.

I will go further on the question of what the Government are doing to achieve greater national equality in the support offered to children. Our improvement plan outlines our commitment to establish a single national SEND system with a proposal to deliver national standards. National standards will improve mainstream education by setting standards for early and accurate identification of SEND need, and they will include clarifying the types of support that should be available in mainstream settings and who is responsible for securing the support. Finally, national standards will create a more consistent SEND system. That may not provide the whole answer, but I hope that helps.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

Are we suggesting that there will be a consistent approach to those who are not taking on plans in the classroom? Much of the talk here is about the plan, which is incredibly expensive and slow, is appealed and then goes through. Will we get better support for those who have not had that official diagnosis? That is the real issue here.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I certainly always listen to the noble Lord. It will be for others to judge, but I very much hope so, and I take note of that.

Quickly on housing, which was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and briefly by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, thanks to the Government’s actions more disabled people have the support that they need to be able to live independently and safely. The Government have more than doubled the funding for the disabled facilities grant, from £220 million in 2015-16 to £625 million in this financial year. Our Renters (Reform) Bill, abolishing no-fault evictions and creating a new ombudsman for the private rented sector, will give disabled tenants more security and confidence to hold landlords accountable for reasonable adjustments. The Government have also proposed to mandate that all new homes will be built to a higher accessibility standard, providing greater independence and safety at home—which again was raised.

Health and Disability Reform

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Wednesday 1st May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I gently correct the right reverend Prelate, or give my view, which is that the current PIP system has served a purpose; that is a fair comment to make. However, as I said earlier, after 10 years—it was our Government who brought in PIP—now is the time to review it. To put this in perspective and explain why we are doing it now, I say that since 2015 the proportion of the caseload receiving the highest rate of PIP has increased from 25% to 36%, and 7% of working-age people in England and Wales now claim PIP or DLA, which is forecast to rise to 10% by 2028-29. Going back to 2022-23, the Government spent £15.7 billion on extra costs for disability benefits for people of working age in England and Wales, and the OBR has forecast that the cost will rise to £29.8 billion in nominal terms by 2028-29. On the right reverend Prelate’s question, we believe that now is the right time to do something. In fact, not doing something would be highly negligent. It covers everybody at all levels. I know he referred particularly to those who are the most vulnerable, and he was quite right.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, this Statement should fill us with joy, but anyone familiar with the history of this issue will actually be worried. The assessment has just got a hell of a lot more complicated. In the past, people have been told that they cannot get their benefits, whatever they are called, because they can walk 10 yards—except they could do it one day but not the next, and it was a nightmare. The Government have just made a quantum leap in the complexity of conditions that they are dealing with. That is good, but unless they back it up with better support to make the assessment then they are guaranteeing failure. There is no real argument about that; the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, hinted at it, and others will back me up,

I suggest that something the Minister could do to make the Government’s life easier is to start passporting the identification of problems such as education in earlier life. For instance, there are education, health and care plans, and the disabled students’ allowance. If we cannot passport those into the Department for Work and Pensions, we are going to waste a huge amount of time and effort. Most of these things will have been tested in the courts, or with an assessment. What are we doing there? When we are making new assessments, are we investing in proper identification? That has been a chronic problem in this area. I hope that by now the Government have realised that and put some sort of plan in place.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I encourage the noble Lord, with his knowledge and experience, to input into the consultation, as I suspect he probably will. He will know that the consultation is limited in scope to PIP, which is open only to claimants aged 16 and over. That is quite broad, but it is payable regardless of whether you are in work, education or, as he spoke about, training. We are keen to hear from people from all walks of life and backgrounds, and encourage everyone, including students, to respond to the consultation.

I take note of the noble Lord’s point about passporting. I know about EHC plans from my previous brief. It is important that the student diaspora and those who represent it also input to the conversation.

As I said, we believe there may be better ways of supporting people in living independent and fulfilling lives. This could mean financial support being better targeted at people, including students, who have specific extra costs, but it could involve improved support of other kinds, such as for physical as well as mental health, leading to better outcomes.

Health and Disability White Paper

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Monday 20th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

It will be, but, as I mentioned to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, we have a number of matters to work through, which is why I have said that it will take time. Sanctions are part of this: for example, in November 2022, the universal credit sanction rate was 6.51%. Sanctions underpin conditionality and are a key part of a fair and effective welfare system, so it is right that a system is in place to encourage claimants to take reasonable steps to prepare for and move into work. We need to keep our eye on this.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, this is an odd White Paper because it misses out a whole chunk of the system: the link between education and benefits. The Government have just produced a paper that says they are going to do much better at identifying special educational needs. Here, I should remind the House of my interests. Reference is made on page 12 to all the neurodiverse groups. You would expect these to manifest in the education process. How are they going to go through? Are the Government requiring an education and healthcare plan? Will there be some other form of identification? How is this to be done? This is a long-standing problem that means assessors and lawyers make money. Can the Government tell me how they will disappoint these groups?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that this is another area we need to focus on, particularly those with neurodiversity issues or, indeed, autism. We have made progress in seeing more disabled people in employment but, as he will know, progress is not even. Groups such as autistic people are still showing very low employment rates—for example, only around 26% of working-age autistic people are in employment—so there is much work to do. This will be a factor in what we look at over the next few months and years as part of these new initiatives.

Employment: Disabled People

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Monday 6th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

We have a disability action plan, but it is separate from the noble Baroness’s point about the national disability strategy. We are disappointed by, and strongly disagree with, the High Court’s finding that that strategy was unlawful; as the noble Baroness may know, the Secretary of State has been granted permission to appeal the court’s declaration. In order to ensure compliance with the court’s declaration, we are obliged to pause a limited number of policies referred to in the strategy or directly connected with it, which is a disappointment.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I declare my interests in this field as set out in the register. What are the Government doing to make sure that businesses, particularly small ones, know that, if they employ a disabled people, they have somebody who is less likely to take time off work and less likely to change jobs frequently—both those things are proven—than a non-disabled person? This sort of information would certainly help to break down perceptual barriers.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Indeed, and this is very much a matter for Jobcentre Plus. Further training is being given to job coaches in jobcentres. It is very important that those with health conditions or disabilities receive the support and advice that they need to move into or to stay in employment.

Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Tuesday 9th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, at this point it might be convenient if I speak to Amendment 10, which could probably have been grouped with Amendment 9, since it deals with very similar issues. It concerns what happens afterwards and requires a report on the success of the Games.

We have enough information in this country now to be able to produce very definitive documents, because in fewer than 20 years we have had three Commonwealth Games and the Olympics, as well as numerous other championships and activities. We have a great pool of knowledge that could be used. Amendment 9 talks about another type of report: this will be something that goes on to look at future strategy and it will be able to be referred to. I know we will have most of this information in other places, and the Minister may be going to say that, but if you bring it into one central point it is much more likely to be used and used easily—assumptions and discussions become easier. That is all this is about, and I am interested to hear the Government’s thinking about this idea.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, if I may be excused the pun, the baton in this relay has been passed to me, although I note that we are not half way around the track yet. I was happy that the noble Lord, Lord Addington, addressed Amendment 10, although I hope he will forgive me if I wait to see who else might speak to that amendment and reply accordingly. I shall keep my remarks on Amendment 9 relatively brief, picking up on the spirit of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker.

Amendment 9 seeks to introduce a number of requirements for the organising committee to report on its activities. I would argue that it is not necessary to list such requirements in the Bill—a point I picked up from the mood of the Committee this afternoon anyway. Unlike the London 2012 or Glasgow 2014 Organising Committees, the Birmingham 2022 Organising Committee is a non-departmental public body and is already subject to a number of controls and transparency requirements. In an earlier debate my noble friend Lord Moynihan mentioned the importance of transparency and of course he is absolutely right. To illustrate the point, the organising committee has entered into a management agreement with the department. This sets out the organising committee’s governance structure and, in section 4, the reporting schedule and information which must be sent to DCMS on a regular basis. By regular, I mean monthly, bi-monthly, quarterly and biannual reports or face-to-face meetings between senior figures. A copy of the management agreement is available on GOV.UK. The organising committee must publish an annual report of its activities, together with its audited resource accounts, after the end of each financial year. These must be laid in Parliament and made available online, in accordance with public body guidance. The first report will be published this September, and annually thereafter.

To ensure delivery against these requirements, the organising committee has a dedicated compliance manager and chief legal officer. In addition, DCMS has an official responsible for sponsorship of the OC, to ensure that it meets its assurance and accountability obligations. The Games is also part of the Government’s major projects portfolio and is subject to scrutiny by the Infrastructure and Projects Authority, which publishes annually on all such projects. The Commonwealth Games will be included in the next annual report, due this month, and a copy will be placed in the Library of both Houses. I remind noble Lords, as was said earlier, that come 27 July 2022 the Games will have been delivered within a four-and-a-half-year window, rather than the typical seven years.

As was mentioned earlier, there is a balance to be struck: we must ensure both that we have transparency and scrutiny of public money and that the organising committee can move at the pace required to deliver a project of this scale to this immovable deadline. I hope I have reassured noble Lords that we already have the right governance, reporting and scrutiny in place to oversee and assure the successful delivery of the Games and to deal effectively with any issues that arise, without further requirements being added to the Bill.

On the question of public engagement, the OC and Birmingham City Council are committed to regular resident and business engagement. Public consultation drop-ins were hosted last month for the Alexander Stadium redevelopment, which I think the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, alluded to—it may have been one of those events that he attended—and there is a programme of ongoing monthly Perry Barr resident meetings. The OC has hosted eight regional business briefings, with more than 1,000 representatives attending. Games partners, by which I mean all stakeholders with responsibility for delivering the Games, have also met environmental groups to inform the development of the OC’s Games-wide sustainability plans.

Games partners are already engaging with relevant local authorities on Games plans and the leader of Birmingham City Council and the Mayor of the West Midlands both sit on the strategic board, the most senior decision-making body for the Games. A lead officer group has also been established, bringing together officials from local authorities across the West Midlands. The group will support co-ordination, communication and decision-making in relation to the Games. Further to this, I reassure noble Lords that the Government will carefully consider who will be best placed and how to report on the impact of the Games following the 11 days of sport. It is the Government’s ambition that the positive effects of the Games will be lasting ones for Birmingham and the West Midlands region. I hope that, with that rather detailed response, the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, I just made my main speech on Amendment 10. To reiterate what I said, it is about having a report based on our knowledge from the number of events that we have run. I have a nagging suspicion that nobody has been inspired to join in after this, but I will be happy if I am wrong. I beg to move.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, this is becoming a bit of a pattern, but I would like very briefly to set out our stall, as it were. I listened carefully to the remarks made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Addington.

Amendment 10 would require the Government to lay a report before Parliament on lessons learned from the Games in 2022 and on how lessons from other Games were used. I assure noble Lords that the Government will carefully consider how we report on the impact of the Games following the 11 days of sport. It is the Government’s ambition that the positive effects of the Games will be lasting for both Birmingham and the West Midlands region, and that we tell this story, for a story it is. Inevitably, with more than three years to go, work on how best to report on the Games is at an early stage.

Regarding lessons from previous Games, knowledge transfer is the responsibility of the Commonwealth Games Federation. It facilitates a formal debrief between the host city and the future Games host to understand successes and lessons learned. This was the case for Gold Coast 2018 and will be for Birmingham 2022. I confirm that the Government and the OC continue to work closely with the Commonwealth Games Federation as part of an ongoing knowledge transfer from previous Games. Furthermore, this is the first Games that will use the new Commonwealth Games Federation partnerships model, which ensures transfer of knowledge by deploying expert CGF partnerships staff to the organising committee.

Further than this, we also have a proud history in the UK of successfully hosting global multisport events. As a result, many of the staff working on Birmingham 2022 have direct experience of previous Games or major sporting events in recent memory, such as the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games and the Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games. In addition to the large number of staff working in the OC and DCMS with previous Games experience, the OC’s CEO was the chief finance officer for Glasgow 2014. My noble friend Lord Ashton and I spoke to him only yesterday for an update.

I reassure noble Lords that the Government will carefully consider how best to report on the Games and are committed to taking forward any lessons learned into planning for future major sporting events. As there is already an effective process in place for taking into account lessons learned, we do not see any need to require this in the Bill. Again, I hope that is the mood I picked up in the House today. However, the noble Lord, Lord Addington, is right to raise this important issue and I am grateful for the chance to set out our stall once again on this matter. With that, I hope that he will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, we should have grouped this with the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, because that is a very similar—if equally reassuring—answer. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

All the points my noble friend has raised are fine, but we have not quite got to the point where every decision has been made. I have been trying to make the point that getting the transport right is very important. Lessons have been learned from other Games. I hope I have made the point that we have got to a particular point in planning and it is important that we follow through on it, but we are not at the stage of being able to give every single detail.

I highlight that it is the strong view of Games partners that the statutory plan, alongside the requirement on local traffic authorities to implement it, will provide a clear framework for the delivery of Games transport operations, facilitate co-operation and minimise the risk of disruption and disagreement around activities required for the Games.

I shall use this opportunity to provide greater detail on Games-time transport preparations. As noble Lords may know, hosting the Games is accelerating the development of public transport infrastructure improvements that will benefit the city and wider region. They include the development of the new Sprint rapid bus routes mentioned earlier, and improvements to University and Perry Barr railway stations, subject to the necessary approvals. Games partners are also developing a communications plan to promote the use of public transport and to ensure that Birmingham 2022 will be a public transport Games. All venues and live events will be accessible by public transport and additional temporary services will be available to alleviate pressure on the transport network.

Turning to Amendment 24, I am confident that the measures in the Bill and the wider upgrades and developments to the public transport network will deliver on the intention of the Games transport plan. I reassure the Committee that the Government will carefully consider how best to report on the Games’ outcomes, including the transport provisions, following their successful conclusion. With the extra information that I have given, as far as I can, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Addington, will not press Amendment 24 and that the Committee will agree that this clause stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. The fact remains that we would like to know who is going to deliver this. There is a plan and we agree that without a plan, we would not be able to do this. However, we would like to know who is delivering the plan because that is part of the openness and consultation that have been a running theme throughout this Committee stage. If you do not know, you cannot report, you cannot put any effort in and you cannot be reassured. The Minister said that this is part of the planning process that has not been quite reached. I am already constructing the appropriate amendment or commitment that we would like in the Bill about what information should be given as opposed to a person. That is surely where we should be going on this. Today is about probing amendments, and clarification on that point would be incredibly helpful.

Schools: British Sign Language

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Wednesday 22nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord is correct in that. Our vision for children with a hearing impairment, or any special educational need, is the same as it is for all children and young people. As the noble Lord will know, schools have to make best endeavours—it is a legal expression—to look after those with special needs; they have a duty to do this. By and large, schools adhere to this, but I am sure that more could be done, and I very much take note of what the noble Lord says.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, will the Government take into the account that other types of technology are available—for example, text message? That has been very beneficial to the deaf community, both those who use sign language and those who do not. When the Government are devising this curriculum, will they look at how they can use it to interface with the other types of technological support out there? If this is narrowed down to being a traditional GCSE, we will miss an opportunity.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

Again, it is helpful to have some expert input. I know that in developing this GCSE—if it goes ahead—work has been done between Signature, the DfE and Ofqual. The SEN code of practice makes it clear that children and young people with special educational needs should be helped to prepare not just for school but for adult life.

Disabled Students’ Allowance

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Wednesday 8th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and draw the House’s attention to my declared interests.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, EHC plans set out the educational support that children with special educational needs require. In some cases, a child’s EHC plan will have been informed by a diagnostic assessment undertaken by an appropriately qualified specialist. These assessments are acceptable as evidence of a dyslexic student’s condition when applying for DSA. Officials would be happy to look further at this issue and I invite the noble Lord to submit any additional evidence that he might have.

[Lord Addington]

I thank the noble Viscount for that Answer and for the assistance that he has given me in trying to correct what I think is an oversight. It might have been a case of no good deed going unpunished by the Government when they removed the compulsory need for two diagnoses. However, will they take on board that it is quite clear that the school and university systems did not talk to each other or, if they did, nobody listened? We have got ourselves into a situation where people have to undertake another diagnostic assessment that costs £600.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord makes a good point—the school system should talk to the higher education sector. The SEND code of practice makes it clear that children and young people with special educational needs and disabilities should be helped to prepare for adult life. Schools should therefore support the young person in planning their next phase of education, including higher education. The local authority has a legal duty to make young people aware, through their SEND local offer, of the support available to them in higher education.

Litter: Schoolchildren

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Thursday 11th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I am certain that head teachers are thinking very carefully about how to put the environment into PSHE and education in schools. In 2017, the Litter Strategy for England set out a commitment to facilitate strong, consistent anti-litter education, including reviewing existing teaching resources and making sure that they meet teachers’ needs.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, the Question asks whether we should take out a certain year to perform a certain function. Has the Minister given any thought to how we might expand this, and what might be the good cause for which we take time out of the curriculum in year 7 or 8, or possibly starting in year 5? We have a very crowded curriculum, where people are usually fighting to get stuff in. Is this not a ridiculous idea?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I think that teaching about the environment should be spread throughout a pupil’s education. Given that this Question is about year 6, it is important that a start is made in the early years. I am reminded, as this House will be, of the “Mr Men” books. It might be appropriate, perhaps, to start off with “Mr Recycling” or “Mr Litter”. It is a whole process throughout the education of the child, through into secondary school.

Education: Alternative Providers

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Wednesday 27th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The local authorities have ultimate responsibility for ensuring that each and every one of those pupils is placed in a school that gives them equal chances to those who are in mainstream schools.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that every child has a fundamental right to an education? If we are not sure that an unregistered school or placement can provide that, why on earth are we sending children there?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I am sure the noble Lord will agree that there are genuine reasons why we need alternative provision schools. He is absolutely right that it is just as important that education is given at a very high level to those in AP schools, as in mainstream schools, and that those children go on to lead happy and fulfilled lives.

Disabled Students’ Allowance: Assistive Technology

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Monday 10th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, in asking the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, I remind the House of my interests with Microlink plc and the British Dyslexia Association.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to ensuring that the specification of equipment provided through the disabled students’ allowance is kept under review to ensure that it is fit for purpose and takes account of developments in technology. The DfE and the Student Loans Company are currently undertaking a review of the specification of computers provided through the DSA scheme, taking advice from stakeholders, including assistive technology experts, and we expect to complete this review in early 2019.

[Lord Addington]

I thank the Minister for that reply. However, will he accept that if we have computers which are not powerful enough to handle the important technology or the basic operating systems, and you are paying £200 each time, this is a further incentive for people not to take up this scheme? Since around 30% of people who go through the assessment are not taking advantage of it, we should look at the whole of this problem.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The way it works is that the needs assessor recommends certain assistive software for disabled students. The noble Lord will know that there are two types: text-to-speech software and speech-to-text software. It may well be that as a result of the review we are undertaking, looking at the details, a more powerful computer is needed. We are looking at that and that could include a move towards a solid-state hard drive. But on the point about the £200, the noble Lord will know—and I have said this before in the Chamber—that we think it is fair that disabled students pay the first £200 of the cost of the computer.

Local Authorities: Children with Special Needs

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Thursday 22nd November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord makes a very valid point. Much work is going on in that area to ensure that local authorities and CCGs work ever more closely to ensure that the EHCs come through and are correct for each particular child—as each particular child counts. We have invested £391 million for local areas to support implementation since the Act came into force in 2014. This includes £252 million direct to local authorities to cover the so-called “new burden” of implementing the reforms, and a further £60 million from 2014 to 2018 for independent supporters.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, when you have a system in which going to law to get your legal rights enforced has become the norm—which is what has happened here—is that not an absolutely clear sign that something is going wrong? If we are to continue with this system, we must put more money into it or at least ensure that the appeals system is not dependent on lawyers. If we do not do that, we are clearly failing—and, as the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, pointed out, we are making sure that those who do not have financial resource are effectively excluded from the state education system provision for these children.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I know that the noble Lord has strong feelings about this area, and so do we. But I say again that the vast majority of cases are concluded without the need to resort to tribunal hearings. Where families make an appeal, the local authority will need to judge how to respond, and, in so doing, must put the interests of the child or the young person first. Ultimately, it is for local authorities to make these judgments. This is a long-term rollout, so it is too early to say how well it is working, but we believe that we are definitely going in the right direction.

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[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

It is certainly true. As I said earlier, the system is still relatively new and we will need time to fully bed it in. There are early signs that the system overall is working. We have given £391 million to local areas to support implementation of this. We are yet to ascertain why there is variability. For example, I know that in Bradford and Shropshire there have been very few appeals, but in Kent and Surrey there have been a lot. So there is quite a lot of work to be done to analyse the statistics. It may be something to do with the idiosyncrasies of the particular areas.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, I apologise to the House. I forgot to remind noble Lords of my declared interests.

Student Loan Books

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Thursday 11th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I do not agree with the assessment of my noble friend. The figure I have from the OBR is not £28.1 billion but £23 billion. Whatever the figure, a lot of money has been put down. The forecast from the OBR is based on a nominal undiscounted cash projection, and this implies that the £28.1 billion received 30 years from now—or the £23 billion; whichever we agree upon—has the same value as £28.1 billion today, which is not the case. We have to account for inflation. Similarly, the lack of discounting means that none of the risk or uncertainty associated with those cash flows has been captured in the £28.1 billion. We have to discount for the riskiness of the asset. It is a complex issue, which my noble friend will know.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, is it not clear that the current system is actually costing us quite a lot of money? That seems to be the one thing that is clear. Will the Minister give us some assurance that, if we are looking at this in the future, and are going to discount this money eventually, we might give a slightly more beneficial settlement to current students?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

Part of the rationale for looking at a sale now is because market conditions are considered to be right. The money is certain money which comes to the Treasury and can then be used to better effect in other areas, which, as I said earlier, is up to the Treasury to decide.

Museums and Galleries

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Wednesday 12th September 2018 Grand Committee

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to respond to this debate and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, for raising discussion on this interesting subject. I know that he holds strong views on it, as was apparent in his speech.

I declare an interest as I was previously Minister for Intellectual Property; I am also a patron of the Bucks County Museum and the Scott Polar Research Institute. I have a keen interest in the Museum of Brands and the Sir John Soane’s Museum, our smallest national museum. I put on record my sincere thanks to all the museums and galleries up and down the country for the work that they have been doing in digitising their vast collections, and the unique and interesting ways in which they are using digital tools and content to engage with wider audiences.

There are over 2,600 museums in England. These include national, local authority, independent, university, military, National Trust and English Heritage museums. It is quite a complex range but, for the purposes of today’s debate, we are focusing on the 13 national museums in England—those established by legislation and directly funded by government—the British Library and the two non-national museums. All these are sponsored by DCMS and collectively have over 200 million objects. That is quite a number and it is growing.

Public access is critical to everything that the 15 DCMS- sponsored museums and the British Library do. The strategic review of DCMS-sponsored museums, published last year, highlighted that those museums have made, and are making, great efforts to extend and deepen their reach to different audiences. As well as continuing to educate, inspire and entertain audiences young and old, sponsored museums play a key role in attracting international and domestic visitors to sites across the UK.

In 2017-18, DCMS-sponsored museums welcomed around 47 million visitors, including more than 22 million from overseas, demonstrating their value to tourism and the economy. In fact, seven of the most visited attractions in the UK were DCMS-sponsored museums and three were among the top 10 most visited museums in the world. Loans were made to over 4,000 venues, two-thirds of them overseas. This shows what an extensive reach they have, in the UK and internationally, and how well loved they are. They contribute significantly to their local economies and communities, and of course to tourism. They are also significant in helping the UK to be top of the global soft-power index.

Let me attempt to address some of the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, and his focus on balance. I start by trying to address the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths: what do we mean by public access? There is a short description here but I am sure we could have a whole debate on what a definition might be. The Government have been clear that it relates simply to free public access to the permanent collection—a fairly short definition.

As arm’s-length bodies, national museums determine their own operational matters, including the decision to charge fees for the reuse of images of items in their collections. They need to cover their costs and generate revenues for the large amounts of free activities that they provide. My noble friend Lord Eccles spoke about the economies in museums and gave the V&A as an example. Independence and impartiality are critical to our national museums, and indeed to the whole arts and cultural sector. It would be highly unusual, even inappropriate, for the Government to intervene in an operational matter such as this. As my noble friend Lord Eccles said, museums differ greatly in their needs in both incomes and costs.

In 2016-17, the DCMS-sponsored museums had a combined total income of £981.6 million including just under half—£435 million—from central government. To deliver their full activities, develop new audiences and ways of engaging with people, including digitally, the national museums have always taken a blended approach to generating income, including philanthropic and commercial approaches. This is not a response to government cuts, as has been mentioned, but a key element of how they have always operated. It is crucial to ensuring that access to museums by the public and researchers is free. Commercial income includes catering services and retail activities, events such as weddings and corporate hire, sponsorship, charging for certain exhibitions and other fund-raising activities which noble Lords will be aware of. This can include charging fees for certain reuses of images that they have produced.

The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, referred to international museums such as the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam, while the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, made comparisons with museums abroad. The Rijksmuseum charges for entrance and therefore has a different funding model. It is not something that we are considering here. The Louvre in Paris is owned by the French Government and 50% of its annual income is provided by the state, but it is not free to enter except, apparently, for one Sunday a month. The entry fee charged is €15.

I shall answer the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, who spoke eloquently as the chair of a national museum. As I have said, the funding of our national museums is very different from international comparisons and is a small but important income source. It was therefore interesting to hear his views from his standpoint.

I understand that all DCMS-sponsored museums offer an image reproduction service. These differ depending on use and on the different collections and business models. Image size and purpose are key considerations. Many images, usually of low resolution, are available online for free for non-commercial use, with further options for academic use and where high-resolution images are requested. National museums offer a range of licence prices which are dependent upon the purpose and quality of the image. Several offer a lower price where a reproduction is for academic purposes. For example, the National Gallery offers a scholarly fee waiver while the National Portrait Gallery has an academic licence option. All national museums have images available for free on Art UK and many, including the V&A and the British Museum on the Europeana Collections, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg. Knowing how important this is for any museum, the Government Art Collection which the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, referred to, is currently considering this issue for a review of its own model. It is due to report shortly, which I hope will reassure the noble Lord.

There are significant costs in producing high-resolution images, particularly if an item is not already digitised or in 3D. National museums invest significant amounts in providing high-quality images. Given that this is a rolling programme, it is understandable that museums often cannot quantify the costs of providing a specific image digitally. The noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, raised the issue of digital access and costs. While the noble Lord and others have found this difficult to understand, through my discussions I can appreciate why it is difficult to be precise on a case-by-case basis. In fact, as I mentioned earlier, the museums have control over their costs and incomes.

High-specification equipment, studio space and lighting to portray an artwork with accuracy and consistency are all things to be considered. Even the careful removal of an artwork from its location and its frame is labour-intensive. It needs to be done carefully, often in controlled conditions, so as not to damage the work. Museums need to ensure that specialist staff are available, a point made by noble Lords in the course of the debate. This service is significantly above and beyond the government policy that our national museums should provide free access for all to the permanent collections. The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, suggested that charging limits access, but in reality we believe that the opposite is true. Any money earned above the costs from image licensing fees goes back into the museum to help people continue to enjoy the wonders that it possesses. If museums were not able to charge for this activity, I understand that in most cases that would result in services being severely limited or withdrawn, a point that my noble friend Lord Eccles alluded to.

The noble Lord, Lord Addington, asked what is academic and what is commercial, perhaps wanting a definition. I am sympathetic to the noble Lord’s comments about the definition of academic versus commercial, but this is a matter for the national museums to decide. I understand that each provides guidance on their website about the definitions that they use.

[Lord Addington]

Would it not be helpful, however, to encourage them to decide among themselves what that is, because it would at least remove some of the doubts? You would know what you were arguing about.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That would be helpful. Again, it would be up to the museums to get together to decide on a generic definition. I will certainly take that back as a useful idea to have come out of this debate.

The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, asked about the possibility of a round table of national museums, an idea I have sympathy with. I will liaise with the museums and the Government Art Collection to encourage them to meet. The noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, might like to join in, as a way forward; that would be helpful, I hope, from his Royal Armouries perspective.

As for the future, the culture White Paper set out the aspiration to make the UK one of the world’s leading countries for digitised public collections. We have already seen that digitisation is having a significant impact: 61% of museums have digitised up to 50% of their collection. I understand that many larger museums have formed partnerships with technology companies—for example Google Cultural Institute—to help digitise their collections and allow access to items that have never been exhibited.

The Government’s Culture is Digital report, published earlier this year, set out policy commitments which help support the strands of work on digital capacity and innovation that were identified in the museums review last year. Particularly relevant is the task force, which included museum representatives such as the Natural History Museum and Wellcome Trust, convened by the National Archives to develop a new strategic approach to the digitisation and presentation of cultural objects. This will make collections more interoperable and sustainable, building on previous initiatives such as the Heritage Gateway, the National Archives Discovery Project and Art UK. The National Gallery is also creating and disseminating the benefits of a new innovation lab to enable cultural organisations, especially museums, to make best use of advanced digital technologies in enhancing visitor experience and creating content.

In conclusion—I am afraid that time is a bit short—national museums provide free, in-person access to the permanent collections as a condition of government grant-in-aid funding, but need to be free to generate other revenue in whatever ways they see fit. The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, spoke about Striking the Balance, and that is something I also alluded to: it is important to balance what national museums are required to do by Government with being independent and impartial.

Digital technology offers unprecedented opportunities for UK cultural organisations to engage new and hard-to-reach audiences, to become global leaders in the production of digital cultural content and to increase access to their world-class collections. Through the Culture is Digital project, the Government will work with our national museums to ensure that they are world leaders in digital content for now and the future. I again thank the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, for raising the subject and bringing it into the public eye once again.

Disabled Students: Allowances

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Monday 14th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and draw the attention of the House to my declared interest in Microlink PC.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, computers are a mainstream cost for all students, disabled or not. We expected a fall in take-up with the introduction of a £200 student contribution to the cost of the computer hardware, as DSA no longer funds standard computers and students may be satisfied with their existing equipment. Support continues to be available where an extra need is assessed, so as to ensure that disabled students and non-disabled students are treated equally.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Addington]

I thank the Minister for his Answer. However, student numbers are rising, and the number of people claiming the DSA is falling. Is there some explanation other than that disabled people are not claiming it? I draw the House’s attention to the fact that people are getting the assessment and then stopping going through the process. What, other than a financial disincentive, can be working here?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

One reason has been proved to be that at least three-quarters of students now have their own computers. The DSA is there to help disabled students with the additional costs they may face in higher education because of their disability. We introduced the £200 student contribution because computer ownership is so high.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, could the Minister give some thought to the fact that your standard second-hand home computer is not powerful enough to run most of the software that is required by this group? If that is not taken into account, how can the Answer be relevant?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The answer to that question is that if some extra assistive software equipment is required, it will be funded through the DSAs. The point is that we are talking about the basic cost of £200. I also point out to the House that we have commissioned a research project to explore the impact of DSAs on eligible students, including that of recent DSA reforms, and we will report in the summer.

Non-Olympic Sports

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Thursday 19th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to provide resources and support structures for non-Olympic sports following the success of the home nations at the Commonwealth Games.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, the home nations have indeed had a successful Commonwealth Games, collectively amassing 228 medals. Home nations sports councils support talent pathways, which lead into this Commonwealth success. Over the period 2017-21, Sport England is investing nearly £50 million of core funding to support sports that do not feature in Olympic and Paralympic programmes. This will help national governing bodies to deliver talent pathways, projects to tackle inactivity and increasing participation in sports.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that Answer. Would he not accept that certain sports, and netball is the obvious example, are very unlikely to get into the Olympics any time soon, but have a tremendous capacity for improving not only elite-level sport but mass participation? Under those circumstances, why are they dependent for support on something that is designed for grass-roots activity as its primary concern? Should there not be some way to support these sports that do not yet have the Olympic symbol and also those that are missing in the medal total?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, it is crucial that funding is invested strategically in the right sports, the right athletes and the right support programmes. The noble Lord is right that England Netball is having great success at the national level, winning the gold medal, in its strengthened domestic superleague and in increasing participation at grass-roots level. Not only does it benefit from Sport England support but we will be welcoming to Liverpool the 2019 World Cup, where I wish it every success. This is a work in progress. Netball’s focus needs to be on looking ahead much further than just two or three years.

Disabled Students’ Allowance

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Tuesday 27th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and draw the House’s attention to my declared interests.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, disabled students’ allowances do not meet the costs that students incur in providing evidence of their disability. We committed to reviewing the need for post-16 diagnostic assessments for students with specific learning disabilities and have sought expert advice on whether the need for this remains. The result of that review will be published in the spring and I would not wish to pre-empt it.

[Lord Addington]

Would the Minister agree that there is a very good case here for not needing a review? The second assessment for somebody who has already been identified as having a lifelong condition can cost up to £600. You cannot get rid of dyslexia—I know; I tried. Can the Government give us some idea of why they are not just getting rid of this? On receipt of DSA, you get a needs assessment. This is a total waste of time and money.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I do not agree with the noble Lord. We gave a commitment to seek expert advice. For example, there are very important questions that we need to ask, to which we are getting answers. For example, is it necessary to require a diagnostic assessment to have taken place when the student is a specified age or older? If so, what age should that be? Does the assessment need to have been undertaken recently? If so, how recently? If a new assessment is still needed, does it need to be a full assessment or could it be a more limited one? There are a number of questions that we seek answers to, and we are going to come back to the noble Lord as soon as we can in the spring.

Review of Post-18 Education and Funding

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Tuesday 20th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

Again, they will be in scope in terms of making sure that the support we give to nurses, who are so important in our society, is there. That is within scope and it is noted.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, the review had some very interesting things in it. I must give the Government some credit for the best back-down I have ever read in any document:

“Many elements of our current post-18 education system work well”—


if ever there was a way of saying some do not. I have never heard of anything like it before. The section on “A system that is accessible to all” talks about those with a disadvantaged background. I draw the House’s attention to my declared interests with the British Dyslexia Association and as a chairman of Microlink. We have a situation where disabled students have different provisions made at different universities doing the same courses. Are the Government going to make sure in the review that there is some way of allowing a student to know what is effectively happening to those disabled students, particularly those who do not qualify for the disabled students’ allowance, as there is currently a very confused system? The Government have refused to put in any outside quality control on them, saying that they will all make their own way forward. Will there be something in the review that dictates that you will know the type of support you will get?

Also, as the old provisions of the old system mean that the level 1 and level 2 provision of the four-band system are now provided by the institution, how well do they function with the DSA? Will this be made available? Will all those colleges undertaking any degree tuition be brought into this system so that people can find out what they are going to get? If you want anything that is market-driven to be effective you have to have knowledge of that market for those who access it. At the moment it is confused and almost like a quagmire. Unless the Government can tell us that they are addressing that in some way, they will still continue not to achieve.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord again raises the issue of the DSA. I know that he has done a huge amount of work over many years for the disabled and disadvantaged sectors. I reiterate that the Government are very much committed to ensuring that all students with disabilities receive the very best possible support to enable them to study alongside their fellow students on an equal basis. Disabled students have access to a package of support to cover additional costs that they may face to participate in higher education. I reassure the noble Lord that this is in scope, but I do not want to prejudge the outcome of the review. I am certain the panel will want to look at it. Beyond that, I cannot really comment because the panel is independent.

Higher Education (Access and Participation Plans) (England) Regulations 2018

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Monday 22nd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord says it is well known, but I have no evidence to show that at all. I would like to see that evidence. There may have been some reports in the press, but I cannot take the noble Lord up on that point.

In continuing the previous successful approach, the intention is that the OFS will agree the targets and benchmarks higher education providers set for themselves, in keeping with the views expressed by the clear majority of respondents to the 2015 higher education Green Paper. The term “specified prospective students” is defined in the regulations and the intention is to target those from underrepresented groups.

I now turn to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Addington. I know he feels very strongly about the guidance given to universities—what guidance should be given and where we are with that. He and the House will know that there have been a good few meetings on this subject. He may not particularly like it, but I say again that there is already guidance, published by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, on what institutions should be doing to fulfil their obligations under the equalities legislation. We have thought about this over the past few months and do not believe that prescriptive guidance is appropriate; there is no evidence that institutions want it. Institutions are responsible for making their own decisions about supporting disabled students, and they have information to enable them to do so. That information and guidance comes from a range of other bodies. I cited them the last time we debated this matter, so I will not go through them now.

[Lord Addington]

Before the Minister leaves that point, I said that about half were failing. A field study shows that the best figure for achievement was 65% and the worst was 42%. There are various aspects to this. Does this not suggest that progress has not been good?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

We still maintain that we want institutions to think imaginatively about the support that individual students might need, and we will support them in that. That is because each institution is different: they have different needs and courses, and are based in different parts of the country. We think it is absolutely essential that they be allowed to decide for themselves how disabled students, including those with dyslexia, are looked after. I know that we and the noble Lord do not agree on this. Institutions vary in size, and within institutions there can be great variation in the way courses are actually delivered. Disabled students vary greatly in the type and level of support they require to complete their course successfully. The sector is moving towards greater inclusivity, but I am also aware that both the sector as a whole and particular institutions need to do more. However, we do not think being more prescriptive is the way forward.

The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, asked why there were no further education representatives on the OfS board. She has written a letter to me about this, and I have promised to reply. I asked today when that letter is due—it is coming shortly. Notwithstanding that, I will try and answer the question. Schedule 1 to the Higher Education Research Act 2017 sets out the desirable criteria for the composition of the OfS board, which Ministers have to have regard to in making appointments. These criteria were subject to a rigorous parliamentary debate about whether particular representation was necessary to enable the board to operate effectively—for example, a representative from the further education sector. Parliament concluded that there should not be a requirement for specific representation from every single part of the sector that might have an interest in higher education or in the OfS. Instead, the criteria to which the Secretary of State must have regard include the desirability of having members with experience of “providing higher education” and members from,

“a broad range of the different types of English higher education providers”.

We believe that the board as a whole meets these criteria. However, I am absolutely aware of the importance of further education and of the points made by the noble Baroness. The letter may tell us more, but that is the answer I can give at this stage.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That point has already been noted but I will take it back to the department.

The noble Baroness also raised the issue of retention rates, saying that they had worsened recently. This is certainly an issue we are looking at closely, and we have put in place policies to ensure that universities remain focused on it. These regulations extend the remit of access agreements to become access and participation plans, the intention being that they will support both access and student success for disadvantaged groups. The TEF will use non-continuation rates as a core metric when ascribing gold, silver or bronze status to individual universities, although—before a noble Lord intervenes—this method of assessment is going to be subject to a review.

The new transparency condition created by HERA will require many higher education providers to publish their completion rates, broken down by gender, ethnicity and socioeconomic background. Making this data public will shine a light on providers that are underperforming in this area. Transparency is very important.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Garden and Lady Blackstone, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, spoke about part-time study. That is very important, as it was in our discussions during consideration of the Bill. We have been taking steps to help those wanting to study part-time by offering financial support in the form of loans to cover fees and maintenance costs. We are working towards launching a new maintenance loan for part-time students studying degree-level courses from August this year. In addition, the Government are looking at ways of promoting and supporting a wide variety of flexible and part-time ways of learning.

For example, we are consulting on how we can help to make accelerated degrees more commonly available, a subject which the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and I were wholly involved in this morning. Shorter courses offer to students the benefits of lower costs, more intensive study and a quicker return to the workplace. I know that mature and part-time students is a subject of interest here, and it is one of the areas the Government asked the Director of Fair Access to consider in the latest guidance—which, by the way, goes back to February 2016.

The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, asked what happens to an access and participation plan if there is a change to the provider—maybe it is sold or taken over. Under the regulatory framework proposals on which we consulted on behalf of the OfS, we suggest that any provider that is sold or is merging with another provider must notify the OfS as soon as reasonably possible. The OfS will then carry out a risk assessment and review what impact this change will have on the provider’s registration status. The outcome will determine whether any further regulatory action is required, such as the imposition of specific registration conditions and perhaps increased monitoring.

The noble Baroness asked what the Government were doing to ensure that more students from BME backgrounds could access and participate in higher education, which is a good point. We have seen record numbers of BME students going into higher education over recent years, and entry rates for all ethnic groups increased in 2017, reaching the highest recorded level. Black 18 year-olds have seen the largest increase in entry rates to full-time higher education over the period, increasing from 27% in 2009 to 40.4% in 2017, a proportional increase of 50%. Gaps in retention between black and white students have also narrowed. However, there is more to do. We are introducing further measures through HERA to tackle equality of opportunity. This includes the transparency condition, which will for the first time require all universities to publish applications, offers and acceptance rates broken down by gender, ethnicity and socioeconomic background.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked about the Toby Young point. I know we had a debate during an Oral Question not so long ago and I do not think anything has changed. This is an issue that was unfortunate. The process and the due diligence that was gone through for his appointment were absolutely fine up until the point where we were not in a position to look at the 50,000 or so tweets that Mr Young sent. I pledged to the House that we have a “lessons learned” exercise on the go on that. Representation on the OfS board was debated in Parliament, and the make-up of the board complies with the requirements of the criteria set out in the Higher Education and Research Act. At the moment, during the “lessons learned” approach, we have not yet decided when the last position on the board will be decided. That is something we are considering very carefully in the light of what has happened.

The noble Lord also spoke about competition in the sector. He will know that the OfS has duties that are clearly set out in HERA, one of which is to have regard to the need to encourage competition where that is in the interests of students and employers. That is, if you will, a break that has been included. I hope that gives the noble Lord some reassurance on the issue.

The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, asked about the new arrangements for access and participation. Once it is integrated into the OfS—this brings us back to the regulations we are debating today—we expect that bringing resources and expertise from HEFCE and OFFA together in a single organisation, while still having a dedicated champion for widening participation appointed by Ministers, will provide a greater focus on access and participation. HERA ensures that the Director for Fair Access and Participation will be responsible for overseeing the performance of the OfS’s access and participation functions, for reporting to other members of the OfS on the performance of its functions.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked why, as he put it, we cannot get the Russell group or Oxbridge to do more on access and higher education. I have already mentioned that 18 year-olds from disadvantaged backgrounds are entering full-time higher education at record rates, including to the most selective universities. However, the noble Lord is right to some extent: more could and should be done. As I mentioned, in the latest guidance the Government have asked the Director of Fair Access to push hard to see that more progress is made at our most selective institutions via the access agreements, and it is an important point. Prior attainment is obviously a critical factor, and universities have been asked by the DFAP to take on a more direct role in raising attainment in schools as part of their outreach activity.

I am not sure I have entirely covered all the questions that were raised but I hope that, with all those answers to a number of questions, I have helped.

[Lord Addington]

I asked specifically whether the access plans will cover disability adaptation. If the Minister can clarify that now, either way, it would help with what happens in future.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

They will, but to be able to put some meat on the bones of that, I will write the noble Lord a further letter to provide clarification. I know that this is an important and sensitive area, particularly for him. I beg to move.

Disabled Students’ Allowance

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Thursday 14th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

I draw the attention of the House to my declared interests.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, the transfer of responsibilities is designed to encourage higher education providers to fulfil their duties under the Equality Act. Much guidance already exists on the specific duties of higher education providers under that Act on inclusivity and good practice. The experience of disabled students in higher education is of equal importance to that of non-disabled students, and we will continue to review the need for best practice guidance as necessary.

[Lord Addington]

I thank the Minister for that reply. Has the situation improved from what it was when we debated the Higher Education and Research Act? The Inclusive Teaching and Learning in Higher Education as a Route to Excellence paper had no guidance in it. When I asked where it was, I was told by an official to trust the courts to sort it out. In a subsequent meeting, I was told by the Disabled Students Sector Leadership group, under Professor Layer, the author of its report, “Don’t worry; almost half the institutions have a policy in place”. How can a student navigate that system? If something goes wrong, what can they do to avoid having to take the full weight of a legal challenge on their shoulders?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I know that the noble Lord has been pretty exercised about this since the debate on the Bill, but there are a number of good pieces of guidance available, including from the Disabled Students Sector Leadership Group and the Office of the Independent Adjudicator. The QAA has also issued guidance for inclusivity across teaching, learning and assessment, and HEFCE has undertaken its own review, with a 76% response. Of course, there is more to do, but higher education providers have got the message and they are looking at what more they need to do to provide the right facilities for disabled students.

Student Loans

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Wednesday 13th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My noble friend, who is referring to degrees that were shorter than today’s degrees, is right. That is one reason why this House was very keen to promote the idea of accelerated degrees, which we are consulting on, whereby they are undertaken in two years at less cost per year than they would cost in three years.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister not agree that degrees have become totally monetised and have a value attached to them? Would not it be a good idea to take a long, hard look at some form of graduate tax that would do away with the idea of one huge debt hanging over those who undertake a degree?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord is right that a graduate tax was considered as part of the reforms of several years ago. We do not think this is the right approach but we do think it right that students should be able to take out loans, which, I am sure the noble Lord will agree, further the aim of having more disadvantaged people at universities.

Student Loans Company

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Tuesday 21st November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

With reference to Mr Lamey’s dismissal, there was a thorough process of looking at the details of the allegations. In fact, there were two internal inquiries, one run by the Government Internal Audit Agency and the other by Sir Paul Jenkins. They both concluded that there were allegations that needed answering. In terms of the future, it is very important that the process to replace Mr Lamey as soon as possible is robust. We are delighted that Peter Lauener has agreed to take over as the interim CEO. However, the future process must be robust and we must make the right appointment.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, would it not be a good idea if the empire of the Student Loans Company were slightly restricted, as it is now a very big organisation? Is this a good opportunity to remove the disabled students allowance from it as we could probably get better results if we had a more focused attitude towards that?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I do not agree. For some time, the Student Loans Company has had a strategy that includes an initiative to improve the SLC performance across the board and with a focus on user experience for borrowers and staff engagement. The DfE and the SLC are working very hard on this.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Monday 6th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, this is a large group of important amendments—I think it is fair to say that it has grown in the past 24 hours—to which we have heard many valuable contributions, so I make no apologies for speaking at some length. Before I do, I wish to reiterate a point made by noble Lords on many occasions during the debate. One of the great strengths of our world-class higher education system is its diversity. That diversity, be it in the form of part-time study, providers of a denominational character or new innovative providers entering the market, is essential to promoting greater student choice. We want all students, whatever their background or circumstances, to get the most they possibly can from a higher education experience that can respond to their varied needs. A number of noble Lords have also made that point in this debate.

I turn first to government Amendment 8, on diversity of provision. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, who is the president of Birkbeck, has long been a passionate supporter of part-time study and non-traditional students. Speaking in an interview in 2013 to Times Higher Education, the noble Baroness declared—perhaps I may quote her; I am sure that she will remember it:

“Part-time study and flexible learning are going to play a big part in the future of our society”.


The amendment I have tabled along with the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, explicitly recognises that. It makes it clear that choice among a diverse range of higher education provision is part of the OfS’s duty to promote greater student choice. That includes but is by no means limited to choice among a diverse range of provider types, course subjects and modes of study such as full-time, part-time, distance learning and accelerated courses. These are only examples rather than a comprehensive list because when looking to the future, the needs of students, employers and our economy will change and the sector will need to continue to innovate and diversify in response. That is why the Bill goes much further than the existing legislative framework in ensuring that the OfS board will include a diverse representation of interests, including individual student representation, and covering different types of institution.

At the same time, we need to avoid limiting the desirability of experience to a restrictive list of requirements that could prevent the Secretary of State appointing a board that is able to address the challenges and priorities of the day. Regarding Amendment 2, I would like to reassure noble Lords that the Bill as drafted enables the Secretary of State to choose, if he or she so wishes, board members with experience, knowledge and expertise in part-time study, adult and distance learning, and any manner of other diverse means of delivering higher education.

I turn now to Amendments 7, 48, 87 and 94 to 98, on equalities, access and participation. I understand and share the intent behind these proposals: where particular groups face additional barriers to accessing and participating in higher education, they should of course be supported appropriately and protected from discrimination. But I fear that the practical application of these amendments risks imposing additional burdens and constraints on the OfS that might not guarantee better outcomes for students. My noble friend Lord Lucas suggests specific ways of evaluating access and participation. I thank him for this and appreciate his engagement, but we do not see it as necessary. Providers already evaluate these activities and we expect this to continue.

We are proud that measures to increase access and participation and equality of opportunity are at the heart of the Bill. It already gives the OfS an explicit duty to have regard to the need to promote equality of opportunity in connection with access to and participation in higher education across all its functions. The OfS collectively, rather than a single member, will be responsible for demonstrating how that duty is being fulfilled.

Paragraph 13 of Schedule 1 confirms that the OfS must report annually on its functions—including access and participation functions—and that this report must be laid before Parliament. There is therefore no need for a separate report on access and participation. Taken together with the Equality Act, our reforms will help to create a framework within which all students should be protected—a framework that enables autonomous providers to respond to the needs of their particular student body by developing appropriate support services and procedures.

Throughout our consideration of the Bill the noble Lord, Lord Addington, has been tireless in his advocacy on behalf of disabled students. I can assure him that we will continue to work closely with the sector to promote best practice in making reasonable adjustments within the framework of the Equality Act. I have listened to the noble Lord’s concerns in Committee and today. I have met with him to discuss this important issue further. I am pleased to say that the Government have published a report by a senior sector-led group, setting out best practice principles for making reasonable adjustments. We will continue to work with that group to support higher education providers in identifying how those principles can be applied in practice. I will say more on this in a moment.

However, providers need the flexibility to determine precisely how best to meet their students’ needs, consistent with their Equality Act duties. Similarly, the OfS needs the flexibility to determine precisely how best to discharge its duties regarding equality of opportunity. I agree with the noble Lord that identifying barriers faced by particular groups of students and considering how they might be addressed is one way in which the OfS might take into account its duty regarding equality of opportunity. However, I believe that imposing this as a further duty on the OfS as set out in the amendment could be counterproductive, placing additional burdens on the OfS without a commensurate benefit for students.

I say this to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, who, I know, is well exercised by this issue, as perhaps are a few other noble Lords. I can confirm that I and the Minister for Universities and Science, Jo Johnson, will write to the chair of the Disabled Students Sector Leadership Group to ask that it invite the noble Lord to meet it and work with him to develop the guidance further, based on his experience and expertise.

I listened carefully to the point made about dyslexia assessments. The noble Lord raised this issue with me in our recent meeting, and I understand his concerns. Students must provide evidence of their disability to prove eligibility for DSA, and they are liable to meet the costs of this. It is not the purpose of DSA to cover the costs of diagnosis of a condition or disability. Rather, it provides help with only the additional costs of study that a student incurs by virtue of having a diagnosed disability.

The question that could be asked is whether a provider could rely on previous diagnostic reports, or whether the disabled student may be able to bring these with him. This may have been the gist of the line the noble Lord was taking. However, all students are asked to provide evidence of their disability. This is fair, because every institution is different. It is important that the provider or institution can assess correctly students’ needs in relation to the particular course they are taking. That has to be based on up-to-date information. I hope that slightly more prolonged answer will help a little with the noble Lord’s issues.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, you might have a very good diagnosis given by an educational psychologist at the age of 14—before the age of 16—but your brain does not change its wiring at this age. You are assessed; you are given support; and you then have to pay for another report that tells you exactly the same thing. Does the Minister agree that the practice is an absurdity?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I shall not be drawn on that today, my Lords, but the intention here is that we work ever more closely with the noble Lord. I hope that the pledges Jo Johnson and I have given will at least help to nail down further the issues the noble Lord has raised.

I turn to another important issue, mental health, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Storey. We are working alongside the sector to identify measures which will make a real difference to staff and students. This will inform the Green Paper on mental health later this year, of which the noble Lord will be aware. Noble Lords have rightly raised the issue of mental health in higher education throughout our deliberations on this Bill. I say again that the Government expect higher education providers to provide appropriate support services for all their students and staff, including those with mental health issues. However, there is a balance to be struck here, because it is vital that we retain flexibility to enable autonomous institutions to meet the needs of their own staff and students. With that, I ask that the noble Baroness withdraw her amendment.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 23rd January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

It is a generic term. In my next letter, I will address that point. I am certain that it requires a proper and full answer.

Amendment 236 seeks to ensure that the OfS “should” identify good practice and give advice to higher education providers. Let me reassure the noble Lord that we expect this to be a key function of the OfS. HEFCE and OFFA already do this as part of their existing roles, and we expect that will continue in future. We believe that the Bill as drafted will deliver the policy intent on the issues raised, so these amendments are unnecessary. I appreciate the fact that noble Lords have raised these issues, and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw Amendment 226.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and thank the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York for pulling me up and reminding me about a bit of the amendment that I wrote myself, so I should have referred to it. I am glad to hear that the guidance is coming out. I have not received the letter yet, but it does not really matter. The fact that the guidance is coming is good. The fact that we have been waiting for it for this long is not. We are going to get it half way through an academic year, and in the vast majority of cases it will not be possible to implement it until next year. In certain cases, we are not preparing but patching up. We need to look at some of these issues in more detail. In fairness to the Minister, he was hearing about some of the specific points for the first time today. I look forward to arranging a meeting to see how this issue is progressing. I hope that bouncing between the Minister’s incredibly busy diary and my diary will be slightly more successful.

There are groups who do not know what is going to happen. They have been let down and have bad practices. I hope we can have clarifying amendments at the next stage, rather than confrontational ones, so we can find out exactly what is going to happen. At the moment, we are repairing trust and making sure this works slightly better—in a way we all thought the law was supposed to be working.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, can I clarify a slight misconception? The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, asked a question about cultural needs, which I attempted to address. In fact, it was the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, who raised the concept of cultural needs, not the Government. I am very happy to discuss this with the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, outside the Chamber.

[Lord Addington]

I think it was actually in my amendment. I am not wedded to this. It was a probing amendment. If the Minister does not like those terms, it does not matter to me at all. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 11th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, I do not know what the answer is but I suspect that there is a duty under the Equality Act. I point out to the Minister that the fact that everything has changed because of the DSA and because the guidance is not in place has driven this. That is my concern. We are already a term late with something that is a fundamental shift. This should have been addressed months ago and has not been. I would be prepared to meet with any officials or to do anything that gives more clarity here. This whole sector needs to know. The British Dyslexia Association’s helpline is probably the biggest proof that there is a problem here, as it hears from a lot of very worried people who want to know what is going to happen to them, and institutions that do not know what to do.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

On this particularly important but sensitive subject I take note of the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill. If I can create a broad sweep around this subject, it might be helpful for us to arrange a meeting to ensure that we can give both noble Lords and indeed the Committee confidence that we are looking seriously at how, under the new framework, the disabled are properly looked after and monitored during their period at providers, including universities.

On the question of vocational education and Amendments 43 and 47, these amendments recognise the importance of ensuring a joined-up vocational education sector to deliver the opportunities and skills for learners and to drive economic productivity. The higher education sector has an important role in providing both academic qualifications and vocational and technical skills to deliver the capabilities needed by employers. The duties on the OfS to have regard to the need to promote quality and greater choice and opportunities, and the need to encourage competition, are applicable broadly across the range of higher education provision. This includes vocational and professional higher education courses, linking in with the Government’s post-16 skills plan and apprenticeships to ensure that we have a comprehensive academic and technical skills offer.

To reassure my noble friend Lord Lucas, who tabled Amendment 47, it will be important for the Office for Students to co-operate appropriately with a range of other bodies, including the Skills Funding Agency and the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education, and Clause 58 makes specific provision to enable this.

Finally, I will say a brief word about student involvement in the OfS, which was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden. We have already discussed this with regard to other amendments and have acknowledged it through the amendment introduced in the other place which guarantees dedicated student representation on the OfS board. Students are at the heart of the OfS and our wider reforms; I have said that before and I think it is generally acknowledged. We have been listening and will continue to listen to students throughout implementation, and the OfS will embed student engagement, in all its forms, throughout its work.

We have covered a wide range of issues in this debate and I am grateful to noble Lords for their considered contributions. I maintain that it is essential that the legislation sets out the high-level priorities for the OfS while providing sufficient flexibility to respond to changing priorities. I am confident that Clause 2 on the whole delivers our shared aim of ensuring that we maintain our world-class, diverse and inclusive higher education system in the interests of students and taxpayers. However, I can assure noble Lords that the Government will reflect further on several of the issues raised by these amendments as the Bill progresses through this House. In the meantime, I hope that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.

HMS “Victory”

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Grand Committee

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Renfrew for raising this important matter. We all recognise his considerable experience and passionate interest in archaeology and maritime heritage.

Both the Ministry of Defence and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport have recognised for some time that the wreck of HMS “Victory”, which sank in 1744, and which was found in 2008, raises a number of important policy questions. HMS “Victory” was a hundred-gun first-rate ship of the line, launched in 1738, and was the fifth ship to carry the name. Her successor, launched in 1765, which was to be Nelson’s flagship, which we know so well, was the final ship to carry the name, and she remains a commissioned warship to this day. Therefore, the wreck of the ship with which we are concerned this evening has an important pedigree.

HMS “Victory” was the flagship of the Channel Fleet, under the command of Admiral Sir John Balchen, who led a strong force to relieve a French blockade of the River Tagus in Portugal, where a British convoy with stores for Gibraltar had been incarcerated. The blockade was lifted, the French retreated to Cadiz, and Admiral Balchen escorted the convoy to Gibraltar. On the fleet’s return journey it was caught in a terrible storm and HMS “Victory” was separated from the rest of the fleet. The ship, with her crew of over 1,000, was never seen again. I note at this stage the comment that my noble friend Lord Addington made about his claim to the Balchen line, which I am sure is genuine; I presume that the list of claimants will increase in direct proportion to the presumed treasures that lie on the sea bed. Given the importance of the wreck—

[Lord Addington]

Of that I have absolutely no doubt.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I thank my noble friend for that confirmation.

Given the importance of the wreck and the grave site, the previous Government initiated a public consultation on the options available. We received a good response to the consultation exercise and the Government announced their response in May 2011. As part of that, we made clear that we intended to adopt a phased approach to the management of the site. In line with the provisions of the annex to the UNESCO Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage, in situ management would be adopted as a first option pending further study of the site and before deciding on any further physical intervention. In addition, in the absence of public funds being available for work on the wreck site, we decided to explore the option of transferring responsibility for the management of the site to a charitable trust.

This decision was then followed through with negotiations with my noble friend Lord Lingfield as chairman of the Maritime Heritage Foundation, and the deed of gift for the transfer of the wreck to the foundation was signed in January this year. The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, and my noble friend Lord Renfrew questioned whether the Department for Culture, Media and Sport should lead government decisions on the management of wreck sites such as that of HMS “Victory” which lie outside the UK territorial limit. Perhaps I may say first to the noble Baroness that the Government welcome the constructive and active engagement of English Heritage in support of their decision-making in the case, and I am pleased that she has acknowledged the role that English Heritage has played.

There is a specific legal point in respect of military wrecks. The noble Baroness will understand that they are owned by the Secretary of State for Defence and thus formally it is for that department to decide what action should be taken in respect of a wreck. This is why the deed of gift was in the name of the Secretary of State for Defence, as was the deed of gift in respect, for example, of the “Mary Rose” when she was transferred to a charitable trust in 1983. So the answer to one of the questions posed by my noble friend Lord Renfrew is that this is not the first time that we have gifted the wreck of a Royal Navy warship to a charitable trust established for that purpose. But I can assure the noble Baroness that the Government accept that there are important issues of heritage policy involved in this case, and that such decisions are a matter for collective government decision-making and are not driven by one department or another.

The Government remain of the view we reached in response to the consultation exercise. Management of the wreck site is not something to which we can allocate government resources, and thus we welcome the commitment by the Maritime Heritage Foundation to work closely with government in the management of the wreck site. The deed of gift imposes important and significant conditions on the actions that the foundation can take, requiring it to seek the agreement of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence should it wish to undertake any work on the wreck site. I have to say to noble Lords that it would be wrong for the Government to dictate which contractor the foundation chooses to use, as long as it follows the principles and conditions set by the Government.

The current position is that my noble friend Lord Lingfield, as chairman of the Maritime Heritage Foundation, has put forward a couple of proposals for works to be undertaken on the wreck site. These are currently being considered collectively by ministerial colleagues in the Ministry of Defence and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. This consideration has been informed by advice from an independent advisory group which includes a representative of the National Museum of the Royal Navy and, indeed, English Heritage. I can confirm that no decisions have yet been taken on the proposals put forward by the Maritime Heritage Foundation, although I hope that we will be in a position to report shortly. The Committee will understand, therefore, that I am not in a position to provide substantive responses to the questions that have been posed or the assurances that I know noble Lords would have liked. However, I can assure noble Lords that the Government well understand the concerns that have been expressed, and in reaching a decision on the way forward with the wreck site, we will seek to ensure that the actions agreed are consistent with the principles in the annex to the UNESCO Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage.

Specifically, I would like to reassure my noble friend Lord Renfrew—and I hope that this goes some way towards answering some of his questions—that the Government agree that the commercial exploitation of underwater cultural heritage for trade or speculation, or its irretrievable dispersal, is fundamentally incompatible with the protection and proper management of underwater cultural heritage, to which the Government are committed. I hope, therefore, that when the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, sees the Government’s decision in this matter she will have greater confidence that we have taken account of the advice that English Heritage has provided.

My noble friend Lord Renfrew asked whether I can confirm a rumour that 17 cannon from the ship have been moved in preparation for recovery. There have been a number of rumours in respect of this wreck, many of them contradictory. However, there is no evidence that cannon or other artefacts from the wreck site have been recovered or moved by the foundation or on its behalf since two cannon were recovered, with our agreement, for identification purposes in 2009—although it is true that one has been taken from the site and has turned up in the Netherlands, as my noble friend Lord Lingfield mentioned today.

The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, highlighted a concern, quite rightly, over the accidental recovery of cannon—for example, by trawlers. As was pointed out today, this is an area where trawlers trawl.

Before I conclude, I wish to pick up on two issues. My noble friend Lord Addington and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, raised the important question of the disturbance of human remains. I can reassure them both that in all the discussions that we have had with the Maritime Heritage Foundation, which I am sure my noble friend Lord Lingfield will confirm, we have been clear of the importance of avoiding the disturbance of human remains as far as possible and they will be treated with due respect.

I was delighted to see the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, rise to speak in the gap. He raised the issue of lessons learnt from sale for salvage in the past. As I have made clear, the decisions we have taken and are considering in this case are very different from the examples that the noble Lord gave relating back to the 1950s. We are not talking here about sale for salvage, although I was interested to hear what he had to say.

In conclusion, I recognise that there are some concerns about the proposed arrangements for this important military wreck. The Government recognise these concerns and will, I am sure, take full account of the points that have been made this evening in reaching a decision on the proposals brought forward by the Maritime Heritage Foundation. I ask your Lordships to wait for that decision. I note the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, who asked for a timetable, but I am confident that news should arrive early in the new year, which I hope will give some comfort. This will address the substance of the concerns that have been raised once the news comes out.

Television: Listed Sporting Events

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Thursday 11th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. I should clarify that at the moment we have no plans to reopen the list. In 2010, the Government announced that they would not pursue the recommendations made by the David Davies report in 2008 but that they would review the position after the completion of digital switchover. Having said that, I have taken note of the noble Lord’s comments about the Olympics, the coverage of which was hugely successful, and about the cricket.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that when sporting bodies are offered large amounts of money for the exclusive coverage of events, it is often very difficult for them to turn it down in the short term, and that it is the job of government to make sure that those bodies look long-term at issues such as participation and information about their sports, as well as at short-term funding projects? That should be put into the crown jewels process.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My noble friend makes a valid point, but I should say that the sale of sports rights is a commercial matter between the broadcasters and the rights owners, and the Government do not intervene in this process.

Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Addington

Tuesday 9th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I do not agree with the noble Lord’s question to the extent that I believe that the whole of the United Kingdom has benefited. I would point out that the legacy of the Olympic and Paralympic Games will not be seen for some time. I would also point out, as we have Welsh representation here today, that £38 million of business was generated from Wales. Indeed, a lot has happened throughout the United Kingdom and we should remember the thousands of sports clubs that have been set up, the school sports around the whole country and the youth sport strategy, which covers the whole country, not just London.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the soft legacies of the Olympics are probably the most important and that a classic example of such legacies must be the role of the volunteers? What activity are the Government undertaking to ensure that such events as next year’s Rugby League World Cup, the Rugby Union World Cup in 2015 and the Commonwealth Games maximise and build on that model of volunteering, which has been so valuable?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I am delighted that my noble friend has brought up the issue of the volunteers. They were absolutely fantastic. Noble Lords may or may not know that there were 70,000 Games makers. They were volunteers. It is fair to say that their travel within zones one to six was paid for, and I think that they managed to receive their lunch, but otherwise they very willingly and always with smiles gave of their time. In answer to my noble friend’s question, looking ahead to the rugby events that he mentioned, I do not quite know where we stand but I hope to come back to him soon with that information.