HMS “Victory”

Lord Addington Excerpts

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, I first declare an interest that I never thought I would have to make. Apparently I am a descendant of Admiral Balchen. This was news to me about a year ago. I am afraid that the rumour mill had started to grind; there was gold buried treasure to be had and everybody would be rich. I did not believe it at the time; I am not that lucky. My lottery numbers have not come up. I believed it even less when I discovered that this was not some fast-raiding frigate that would hunt down big prizes but a great big slab of a battleship designed for blowing holes in other battleships, and sitting in front and blockading places, as was done in 18th-century warfare.

My history on this is quite good but I am always aware that CS Forester and Patrick O’Brian have got in there and distorted the picture slightly, but that is what it was. It was a warship famous for not sailing very well—in some of the stuff I read, that is probably why it sank. Apparently it had a drift to leeward—I am still not quite sure what that means. The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, is in the Room and he will probably correct me on it later. It was famously one of the last ships to have bronze cannon. I suspect that those bronze cannon are the bits that everybody is mainly interested in. There is a real market in old artillery pieces. Bronze guns of that cut-off period would have real collectors’ value. Whether there were large stores of money onboard, I do not know; as a flagship it may well have carried money onboard. If it went down with all hands as everybody seems to suspect, 11,000 serving men are down there with it.

We need some guidance about what to do about this situation and why we should disturb the last resting place of that number of servicemen. There was some talk about gathering up the bodies and bringing them home but I am pretty sure that it was normal at that time to bury at sea. Why are we doing it? Is it for historical reasons? If we are doing something for knowledge and history, there might be a case but it is a fairly well documented ship. The Royal Navy at this time was one of the world’s best record keepers. I am sure that we could find out from Admiralty House exactly who was on that ship. Also, if we are taking up those guns, the incidental archaeology will be damaged, which may be of greater interest. I should like some assurances that if any guns or any other artefacts of high value are removed, an archaeological study of absolutely the highest level is the cost that we must extract from that. Is this the number one target for that type of expenditure? It is not the “Mary Rose”, which is a well documented case that we know something about, so we must justify the expenditure.

I shall leave my comments there. The big society was mentioned in the briefing but I do not think that this is a good example of the big society. That has been taken out of context. If we are to allow commercial exploitation, the academic, scholarly knowledge and the payback must be very big. It may be that that academic, scholarly prize on this vessel is simply not there.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Renfrew for raising this important matter. We all recognise his considerable experience and passionate interest in archaeology and maritime heritage.

Both the Ministry of Defence and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport have recognised for some time that the wreck of HMS “Victory”, which sank in 1744, and which was found in 2008, raises a number of important policy questions. HMS “Victory” was a hundred-gun first-rate ship of the line, launched in 1738, and was the fifth ship to carry the name. Her successor, launched in 1765, which was to be Nelson’s flagship, which we know so well, was the final ship to carry the name, and she remains a commissioned warship to this day. Therefore, the wreck of the ship with which we are concerned this evening has an important pedigree.

HMS “Victory” was the flagship of the Channel Fleet, under the command of Admiral Sir John Balchen, who led a strong force to relieve a French blockade of the River Tagus in Portugal, where a British convoy with stores for Gibraltar had been incarcerated. The blockade was lifted, the French retreated to Cadiz, and Admiral Balchen escorted the convoy to Gibraltar. On the fleet’s return journey it was caught in a terrible storm and HMS “Victory” was separated from the rest of the fleet. The ship, with her crew of over 1,000, was never seen again. I note at this stage the comment that my noble friend Lord Addington made about his claim to the Balchen line, which I am sure is genuine; I presume that the list of claimants will increase in direct proportion to the presumed treasures that lie on the sea bed. Given the importance of the wreck—

[Lord Addington]

Of that I have absolutely no doubt.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I thank my noble friend for that confirmation.

Given the importance of the wreck and the grave site, the previous Government initiated a public consultation on the options available. We received a good response to the consultation exercise and the Government announced their response in May 2011. As part of that, we made clear that we intended to adopt a phased approach to the management of the site. In line with the provisions of the annex to the UNESCO Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage, in situ management would be adopted as a first option pending further study of the site and before deciding on any further physical intervention. In addition, in the absence of public funds being available for work on the wreck site, we decided to explore the option of transferring responsibility for the management of the site to a charitable trust.

This decision was then followed through with negotiations with my noble friend Lord Lingfield as chairman of the Maritime Heritage Foundation, and the deed of gift for the transfer of the wreck to the foundation was signed in January this year. The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, and my noble friend Lord Renfrew questioned whether the Department for Culture, Media and Sport should lead government decisions on the management of wreck sites such as that of HMS “Victory” which lie outside the UK territorial limit. Perhaps I may say first to the noble Baroness that the Government welcome the constructive and active engagement of English Heritage in support of their decision-making in the case, and I am pleased that she has acknowledged the role that English Heritage has played.

There is a specific legal point in respect of military wrecks. The noble Baroness will understand that they are owned by the Secretary of State for Defence and thus formally it is for that department to decide what action should be taken in respect of a wreck. This is why the deed of gift was in the name of the Secretary of State for Defence, as was the deed of gift in respect, for example, of the “Mary Rose” when she was transferred to a charitable trust in 1983. So the answer to one of the questions posed by my noble friend Lord Renfrew is that this is not the first time that we have gifted the wreck of a Royal Navy warship to a charitable trust established for that purpose. But I can assure the noble Baroness that the Government accept that there are important issues of heritage policy involved in this case, and that such decisions are a matter for collective government decision-making and are not driven by one department or another.

The Government remain of the view we reached in response to the consultation exercise. Management of the wreck site is not something to which we can allocate government resources, and thus we welcome the commitment by the Maritime Heritage Foundation to work closely with government in the management of the wreck site. The deed of gift imposes important and significant conditions on the actions that the foundation can take, requiring it to seek the agreement of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence should it wish to undertake any work on the wreck site. I have to say to noble Lords that it would be wrong for the Government to dictate which contractor the foundation chooses to use, as long as it follows the principles and conditions set by the Government.

The current position is that my noble friend Lord Lingfield, as chairman of the Maritime Heritage Foundation, has put forward a couple of proposals for works to be undertaken on the wreck site. These are currently being considered collectively by ministerial colleagues in the Ministry of Defence and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. This consideration has been informed by advice from an independent advisory group which includes a representative of the National Museum of the Royal Navy and, indeed, English Heritage. I can confirm that no decisions have yet been taken on the proposals put forward by the Maritime Heritage Foundation, although I hope that we will be in a position to report shortly. The Committee will understand, therefore, that I am not in a position to provide substantive responses to the questions that have been posed or the assurances that I know noble Lords would have liked. However, I can assure noble Lords that the Government well understand the concerns that have been expressed, and in reaching a decision on the way forward with the wreck site, we will seek to ensure that the actions agreed are consistent with the principles in the annex to the UNESCO Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage.

Specifically, I would like to reassure my noble friend Lord Renfrew—and I hope that this goes some way towards answering some of his questions—that the Government agree that the commercial exploitation of underwater cultural heritage for trade or speculation, or its irretrievable dispersal, is fundamentally incompatible with the protection and proper management of underwater cultural heritage, to which the Government are committed. I hope, therefore, that when the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, sees the Government’s decision in this matter she will have greater confidence that we have taken account of the advice that English Heritage has provided.

My noble friend Lord Renfrew asked whether I can confirm a rumour that 17 cannon from the ship have been moved in preparation for recovery. There have been a number of rumours in respect of this wreck, many of them contradictory. However, there is no evidence that cannon or other artefacts from the wreck site have been recovered or moved by the foundation or on its behalf since two cannon were recovered, with our agreement, for identification purposes in 2009—although it is true that one has been taken from the site and has turned up in the Netherlands, as my noble friend Lord Lingfield mentioned today.

The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, highlighted a concern, quite rightly, over the accidental recovery of cannon—for example, by trawlers. As was pointed out today, this is an area where trawlers trawl.

Before I conclude, I wish to pick up on two issues. My noble friend Lord Addington and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, raised the important question of the disturbance of human remains. I can reassure them both that in all the discussions that we have had with the Maritime Heritage Foundation, which I am sure my noble friend Lord Lingfield will confirm, we have been clear of the importance of avoiding the disturbance of human remains as far as possible and they will be treated with due respect.

I was delighted to see the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, rise to speak in the gap. He raised the issue of lessons learnt from sale for salvage in the past. As I have made clear, the decisions we have taken and are considering in this case are very different from the examples that the noble Lord gave relating back to the 1950s. We are not talking here about sale for salvage, although I was interested to hear what he had to say.

In conclusion, I recognise that there are some concerns about the proposed arrangements for this important military wreck. The Government recognise these concerns and will, I am sure, take full account of the points that have been made this evening in reaching a decision on the proposals brought forward by the Maritime Heritage Foundation. I ask your Lordships to wait for that decision. I note the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, who asked for a timetable, but I am confident that news should arrive early in the new year, which I hope will give some comfort. This will address the substance of the concerns that have been raised once the news comes out.