Ballymurphy Inquest Findings

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness O'Loan

Monday 17th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend that the current system is working for no one, failing to bring satisfactory outcomes for families and placing a heavy burden on the criminal justice system, leaving society in Northern Ireland hamstrung by its past. But we must never forget, dismiss or ignore the past. We must find a way forward to move beyond it, which is why the Government want to deliver a process that will, as I said earlier, allow all individuals or families who want information to seek and receive answers about what happened during the Troubles. On my noble friend’s point about the Armed Forces, the UK Government are committed to delivering on their commitments to Northern Ireland veterans.

[Baroness O’Loan (CB) [V]]

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House why the Statement and press release issued by the Northern Ireland Office do not state that nine of these 10 victims were shot dead by the Army and that three of them were shot as they went to the help of people who had already been shot? In the 10th case, because of a massive failing by the state, the coroner could not attribute responsibility. Given the families’ response to the coroner’s finding and that this country proudly proclaims its respect for and adherence to the rule of law, surely we must continue to use our resources positively and in the interests of truth and justice, rather than in trying to prevent future prosecutions and abandoning the various agreements made between the UK Government and Ireland, supported by the political parties.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness that it is important to get to the truth and provide justice. With regard to her earlier points, questions arising from the deaths of the victims at Ballymurphy are a matter for the coroner and should be directed to her office.

Patrick Finucane: Supreme Court Judgment

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness O'Loan

Wednesday 2nd December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I hear what the noble Baroness says. I reiterate what the Secretary of State said on Monday, which is that, with so much history of all the reviews that have taken place since the dreadful murder in 1989, it has made sense at this time to look at what we know now. On the noble Baroness’s comments about public inquiries, the Government have demonstrated that, when the public interest requires it, we will establish public inquiries to look at potential failings by government or state bodies. As she will know, we have done so in the case of the Manchester bombing. However, I reiterate that it is right that we allow the police and the ombudsman processes to proceed before taking a decision on whether further steps are required.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB) [V]]

My Lords, there can be no doubt that grounds exist for establishing a public inquiry into the murder of Patrick Finucane. An inquiry should be established because the matter is related to state collusion, leading to the murder, and there are major unanswered questions. As noble Lords know, both the PSNI and the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland have said they have no ongoing work in relation to the murder. The work of the police ombudsman, which was referred as a consequence of de Silva, relates to other terrorist murders carried out in Northern Ireland. When I was police ombudsman, I knew that I could not investigate matters surrounding the murder of Patrick Finucane because I did not have the powers. That continues for the current police ombudsman. She can only investigate the activities of police officers. She has no remit to investigate, with a view to prosecution, loyalist paramilitaries, the staff of the Ministry of Defence or the Security Service—that is what is required in this case. Moreover, the police ombudsman does not have the resources to do the work she should be doing; she is grossly underresourced. Yet, as I found when I carried out my investigations, while the crime in question may have occurred decades ago, what emerges from the investigation may have implications for policing today. Do the Government have plans to provide further funding to the police ombudsman to allow her to discharge her statutory duties? It is not a matter of double standards, an inquiry for one and not for the other. It is a matter of learning from the wrongdoing of the past to enable the anti-terrorism work of today.

There are hundreds of unsolved murders, as noble Lords have said. The current system is not working. We urgently need the independent historical investigations unit, which has been promised. It must be properly resourced and needs to do the type of investigation carried out by Chief Constable Boutcher in Operation Kenova. This is not a matter on which the Government can delay; it is urgent. Can the Minister tell us when a new, independent, properly resourced, historical investigations unit will be established?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am not able to give a timing for the historical unit. The noble Baroness has raised a number of questions and I have taken on board her views about the decision that has been made. I reassure her that funding for the PSNI is there. There is no issue over that funding or indeed for the ombudsman investigation. There is much to do; it is for both independent investigations to decide how they will progress, and it is up to them to let us know how they will do that. We have every confidence they will do the best job possible in looking at these matters.

Abortion (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness O'Loan

Monday 15th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I find myself agreeing with pretty well all the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. I thank her for her remarks. I also thank all noble Lords who contributed to the debate.

I fully recognise that this is a sensitive and emotive issue for many. I have listened very carefully. I recognise that several noble Lords with long-held views registered their strong opposition to what we are doing but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said, we are under a clear statutory duty; and, as the noble Lord, Lord Hain, said, it is important that women and girls in Northern Ireland are afforded equal rights to those living across the rest of the UK. On the other side of the argument, there are some who consider that we have not gone far enough.

Before I turn to the issues raised, a few noble Lords questioned the extent of our legal powers. I note, as the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, said, that the JCSI has not drawn the instrument to the attention of both Houses for being ultra vires. The noble Lord, Lord Elton, and my noble friend Lord Cormack should know that the Procedure Committee agreed that, like others, these regulations are at present subject to 90 minutes. This was also subject to agreement in the usual channels.

I also note the amendments to the Motion tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and my noble friend Lord Shinkwin, and I hope that my answers on the issues raised this evening go some way to indicating why the amendments should not be supported.

Some noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady O’Loan, and my noble friend Lady Stroud, raised the constitutional propriety of these regulations being legislated for from Westminster, and the Northern Ireland Assembly’s debate on 2 June, which called for the removal of regulations permitting abortions in the case of severe foetal impairment rather than fatal foetal abnormality.

As my noble friend Lord Bourne pointed out, the UK Parliament, by way of Act of Parliament, compelled the UK Government to ensure that the regulations were in force by 31 March 2020. Section 9 of the Act would not have applied if an Executive in Northern Ireland had been set up on or before 21 October 2019, as set out in Section 13 of the Act. Had that happened, the regulations could not have been made.

The Motion itself does not tell us what the Northern Ireland Assembly is for; it highlights only the part of the regulations that it is against, which the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, pointed out. I remind noble Lords that the regulations can be amended in Northern Ireland should that be so wished in the future, so long as any amendment is compatible with the ECHR and compliant with CEDAW—again, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said.

On the issue of disability, I fully appreciate the concerns raised, particularly in the powerful contribution from my noble friend Lord Shinkwin. He is a friend and I have a particular respect for him. I recognise that this is a highly sensitive issue. Noble Lords are aware that part of these regulations calls for access to abortion in the case of both severe foetal impairment and fatal foetal abnormalities. It is our firm view that the regulations fully comply with the statutory duty under Section 9 of the NIEF Act, which includes implementing all recommendations in the CEDAW report.

The regulations mirror the law in the rest of the UK, where abortions are permitted in cases of severe foetal impairment and fatal foetal abnormality, with no time limit. The Government would never act to discriminate on the basis of disability. We maintain that the regulations are consistent with the rights under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which is an important point to make.

Turning to sex selection, raised by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and my noble friend Lady Eaton, medical practitioners are under no obligation to provide treatment in all cases under Regulation 3, irrespective of the absence of an express requirement for the woman to meet a legal test for gestations up to 12 weeks. That would particularly be the case where the practitioner has concerns that the woman is conflicted and undecided on whether to proceed with the abortion, where they have reason to believe that the woman has been coerced or put under pressure by a partner or family member to proceed, or where other issues of concern are identified. Furthermore, in Northern Ireland under the NHS, scans to detect the sex of the foetus take place between 18 and 21 weeks’ gestation. At that stage of gestation, a woman would be able to access an abortion lawfully only up to 24 weeks’ gestation where

“the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman which is greater than if the pregnancy were terminated”

or with no gestational limit in relation to severe foetal impairment or fatal foetal abnormality or where there is

“Risk to life or grave permanent injury to physical or mental health of”


the pregnant woman, or in cases of immediate necessity, as pointed out earlier. This is similar to the rest of the UK under the Abortion Act 1967.

Data collection, analysis and publication on abortion-related matters, including sex selection in Northern Ireland, will be a matter for the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to take forward, as part of commissioning full abortion services, consistent with the Northern Ireland regulations.

I recognise that a few noble Lords have concerns about the regulations providing unconditional access to abortions up to 12 weeks’ gestation. As I noted in my opening remarks, the provision was determined as the most appropriate way of meeting our statutory duty and what CEDAW requires by ensuring that women, including victims of sexual crime, access services without undue delay while avoiding anything that could lead to further trauma or act as a barrier to access. Based on current public data, 86% of the abortions accessed by residents of Northern Ireland in England under the Abortion Act 1967 in 2018-19 took place prior to 12 weeks’ gestation and would be covered by this limit.

We consider that this approach will ensure that women resident in Northern Ireland will have access to abortion without conditionality in the vast majority of cases where it is their individual choice to use it. This approach ensures compliance with CEDAW requirements. This is appropriate given that the position in Northern Ireland, following repeal of Sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act, is that abortion early in pregnancy has been lawful since October 2019.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked some questions about compliance with regulations, and I will write to her because I have a lot that I would like to say about the close co-operation between the health services in England and Northern Ireland in terms of helping where required. The health service in Northern Ireland should take these regulations forward and provide top-class services for those women and girls who require an abortion service.

The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and others stated that the regulations do not provide adequate sanctions and, therefore, leave a big gap in the law, putting women at risk of abuse and coercion. I hope I can reassure them that that is a misleading interpretation of the protections that remain in place across the statute book to protect the health and safety of women and girls. As well as the sanctions for intentional breaches of the regulations, other criminal laws continue to apply. Taken together, they ensure that the safety of women and girls remains paramount, and that medical professionals are able to provide abortion services in good faith and in the interests of their patients within clear legal parameters.

As you might expect me to say, with 41 speakers, it is impossible to answer every question. I will look extremely carefully at Hansard after this debate and I shall certainly write a letter to address all the points that I have not managed to address. Bearing in mind the strong feelings expressed this evening, the regulations are ultimately about the rights of women and girls and them being able to access medical treatment in distressing and difficult circumstances, where they have a right to choose what is right for them. We should act in a way to support them in these cases, as the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said, to prevent women and girls being forced to cross the Irish Sea for abortion services. That is why I commend the regulations to the House. I beg to move.

[Baroness O’Loan]

I wish to draw to the attention of the House that the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, was told that he was not permitted to speak, and he left the Chamber in disgust.

The noble Lord, Lord Duncan, suggested that we have discussed these regulations before. We did not know there would be sex-selective abortion to 12 weeks. That is not allowed in Great Britain, and what the law does not forbid is permitted. We did not know there would be abortion to birth for non-fatal disabilities. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, suggested that Ireland has corresponding regulations; the law in Ireland is much more limited. Three of the regulations are manifestly ultra vires. The Government have power under Section 9 to amend these regulations. There is no international legal obligation to give effect to these regulations. The Government could introduce different regulations; it is not this or nothing. I am going to ask the noble Lords to vote “Content” to my amendment. I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Abortion Regulations: Northern Ireland

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness O'Loan

Monday 8th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie [V]]

The noble Lord is right that once the law is fully passed and the regulations come fully into law—I hope next Monday—it will give clarity and support not only to those at the front end of health in Northern Ireland, who have to supervise the abortions that take place, but in particular to the women and girls involved. I will need to write to the noble Lord about the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB) [V]]

Is the Minister aware that while there is an obligation to produce regulations under the Act, there is no obligation on the Government to table these particular regulations, which, as the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, pointed out, permit the abortion of foetuses on the grounds of sex? There is no restriction on the grounds upon which a baby may be aborted in the Northern Ireland regulations; therefore, it is possible to abort on the grounds of sex. Is he also aware that some of the regulations have been said by the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland to be ultra vires? Can the Minister tell us why the regulations go so very far beyond what was required by the CEDAW report, which underpins these regulations, particular insofar as the fact that they discriminate against babies with a disability, who can be aborted to birth, and medical practitioners and pharmacists who are not protected in terms of their freedom of conscience unless they are actively engaged in the act of abortion? Why is he promoting regulations that are not consistent with Section 6(2) of the Northern Ireland Act and the obligations not to discriminate on the grounds of disability and to protect freedom of conscience?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie [V]]

There were several questions there, but I will answer two of them. First, the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland reports to the Northern Ireland Executive, not to the UK Government, but I am well aware of the views there. Secondly, to put the noble Baroness right, there was a vote in the UK Parliament on this. So, as I said, the Government are under a statutory duty to deliver abortion law for Northern Ireland and to make the changes.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness O'Loan

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 15th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

May I just inquire whether the noble Baroness is listing all the names on her list? It would be helpful for the Committee, with the hour that we are at, if the list could be severely shortened.

[Baroness O'Loan]

The Reverend Norman Hamilton has worked on the interface in north Belfast for 20 years, and hundreds of clergy and ordinary people—doctors, nurses and lawyers—all signed, from all sides of the community. They wanted one thing: to be respected as people and to allowed to make their own law on this amendment. That shows how concerned people are about this matter.

My amendment would not prevent legal change on either abortion or same-sex marriage. It would simply have the effect of restoring some constitutional integrity to Northern Ireland. It requires that there should be a consultation with the people of Northern Ireland, as there would be with any legal change on either issue in Northern Ireland, and most importantly that the views of the currently elected Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly be recorded for or against any regulations and that the regulations should not be laid before Parliament if they do not receive majority support from those Assembly Members. One thing I have not done is to introduce anything resembling a petition of concern, about which I think the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, spoke earlier. The legislation could pass by a simple majority.

One thing I noticed this afternoon was that the unborn child was largely absent from the debate. When mentioned, there was in some quarters a rolling of eyes and expressions of contempt. Yet it has to be said that abortion is about killing babies—real babies. Without Amendment 23, the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill will go down in British constitutional history as one of its blackest moments of all times, when constitutional due process was completely swept aside because of the conviction of parliamentarians, none of whom represents Northern Ireland, that the end justifies the means. That is never a good place to be. We have heard it said that it does not really matter at all if Northern Ireland’s MPs voted against this, because it is a matter of human rights and if you want to be in the UK you have to accept abortion as a human right. There is no human right to abortion, and I think that is slightly contemptuous of Northern Ireland’s MPs.

The Member for Walthamstow, who introduced new Clause 10 in the Commons, said this morning that this is an attempt by the DUP to hold us all to ransom. At this late hour, I perhaps need to assure noble Lords that I am not a member of the DUP. I am a Cross-Bencher and, as far as I can remember, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, is not a member of the DUP either. This is something that a cross-party group of 16,000 people are asking us not to do. This is the truest cross-community co-operation from all sectors of our community, from all sides, all places in our beautiful country. We have agreement that we do not want abortion railroaded through in the Bill. I ask noble Lords to at least grant Northern Ireland MLAs the courtesy, the respect and dignity of their roles as elected members and allow them to present their views on this matter. I ask noble Lords to give the people of Northern Ireland the same respect and provide for consultation. I beg to move.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness O'Loan

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 30th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O’Loan (CB)]

I declare an interest. My husband is the chair of arc21, the organisation created by six district councils in Northern Ireland responsible for addressing the problem of waste disposal, and made the planning application that led ultimately to the Buick judgment, which has been referred to repeatedly both in this House and in the other place, and is one of the reasons for the legislation we are debating today.

I am sure that everybody in your Lordships’ House regrets the situation that prevails in Northern Ireland. It really is profoundly difficult—almost two years with no legislature, and things are challenging. Members of the other place and of this House have articulated the various issues which are stalled as a result of the situation, not least the major infrastructure projects, the commencement of which would provide employment, therefore contributing to the economy—an economy that is seriously depleted. I see no purpose in repeating that list. It is a difficulty compounded even more by the fact that there is no legislature and no Executive to consult on matters relating to Brexit, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said. Brexit is probably regarded by the people of Northern Ireland as the greatest hazard they face at present, for a variety of reasons. I shall come back to that in a moment.

However, I want to address a matter raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, who is not in his place, but for whom I have the greatest respect. He said that there must be an end to the hounding of veterans. I have to say that there is no hounding of veterans. There are investigations in Northern Ireland into unsolved killings. When somebody is suspected of having been involved in a killing, it is right and proper, and due process in law, that those persons be investigated. That is what is happening. I personally have been involved in the investigation of matters where both military and former RUC personnel have been involved. I know that those who serve in the forces do a very difficult job, and I speak from the perspective of one whose brother served in Northern Ireland in the 1980s, and whose nephew, aged 18, went to Iraq in the British Armed Forces and lost his leg six months later right up to the groin, and suffered multiple other injuries. I speak as one whose other nephew has served in Her Majesty’s forces for coming up to 22 years in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places, so I am not in any way attempting to attack Her Majesty’s forces. In a country which has had the experiences of Northern Ireland, however, it is important that there is no abrogation of the rule of law. It is profoundly important that we adhere to the rule of law.

This measure is clearly seen as necessary to address the lacuna which has been referred to repeatedly. It is legitimate to question the rushing through of this Bill without thought of the normal discussion, analysis and scrutiny necessary, particularly in the delicate situation which is life in Northern Ireland today. The Select Committee on the Constitution rightly raised various issues, not least the breadth of the power which would be afforded to Ministers and civil servants, the lack of clear lines of accountability and the retrospective effect of the Clause 3 provisions, which were described as “irregular and concerning”. It went on to say that,

“a Bill with such characteristics being fast-tracked through its legislative stages in Parliament is undesirable”.

The Minister referred to the fact that it was being fast-tracked. He did not, however, explain why it is being fast-tracked at such a pace. Our peace reposes on the basis of the Good Friday agreement—in our divided way, some call it the Belfast agreement—and the consequential legislation. The Northern Ireland Act 1998, in which I am sure many noble Lords played a part, was an Act designed to make new provision for the Government of Northern Ireland, for the purpose of implementing the Good Friday/Belfast agreement. The consequential legislation enabled a complex, multi-faceted construct, which was designed as best possible to ensure the delivery of the principles of the Good Friday agreement. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, referred to the involvement of another state in the creation of that agreement. The construct we now have was very hard won, and trust grew gradually and sometimes painfully over the years—particularly 1998 to 2007. Interestingly, trust grew despite the suspension of the devolved institution from October 2002 until 8 May 2007. We were still able to work—myself included as police ombudsman—to enable the constitutional process to have its full impact in Northern Ireland. That was difficult, challenging and, on occasion, dangerous work. Policing and justice powers were devolved only on 12 April 2010. It is all very new and must be treated with great care.

There may be a perception in your Lordships’ House, and in the wider community, that Northern Ireland is solved. That it is far from solved is demonstrated by the fact that, once again, we are in a position in which there is no mechanism to run our devolved Government. It is also demonstrated by the fact that during 2016-17 —the last year for which we have security statistics—there were five security-related deaths, 61 shooting incidents, 29 bombing incidents, 66 casualties from paramilitary- style assaults and 28 paramilitary-style shootings, and 75 kilograms of explosives and 2,635 rounds of ammunition were seized. That was the largest quantity of explosives seized since 2006.

It is not all over, and I do not say that with anything other than distress. I personally have suffered in the Troubles; my family, many of my friends and many of the people I worked with have suffered. As police ombudsman, I sat and listened to story after story. I remember one family who came in where the 11 year-old daughter had been left with her two brothers, Rory and Gerard, who were 18 and 22. Their parents had gone out to mass. Róisín had been celebrating her 11th birthday when the gunmen came in and shot her two brothers dead in front of her. You would have to have a heart of stone not to care about things like this, so we need to remember that the situation can change very rapidly in Northern Ireland.

We need to be conscious that, when the talk about the border is so challenging and when no one really knows what is going to happen, this is a difficult time. I do not want to exaggerate, but it is a dangerous time. I have driven across the border twice in the past couple of weeks and will again next week. As you cross the border, you remember what it was like when there were checkpoints and things like that. I do not envisage military checkpoints, but look at the border between Canada and America, and borders between the European Union and some of its non-member states—you see queues and time spent. We do not need all that could happen to us—the social, economic and political cost —were it to come to some kind of hard border in Northern Ireland.

It is in the context of the uncertainties of Brexit and the failure to address the problems in Northern Ireland that the Government are taking powers to themselves. I grant that they are limited powers and in a statute that will have effect for only a limited period, but to many it will seem like shadow direct rule.

I make no comment on the extension of the time for the appointment of an Executive, other than to observe that the power to extend the period seems to have a maximum life of up to August 2019, by which time we will have been without proper governance for two years and eight months. I know why our two main elected parties, the DUP and Sinn Féin, say that they cannot go into government, but the people of Northern Ireland are being badly failed by the stand-off. It is surely incumbent on those parties, and consistent with democracy, that they lay aside these issues temporarily, go into government and use democratic means to resolve those problems as best they can—that is what democracies do.

We want government decisions made by elected politicians, not by spads on the one side—as we have heard in relation to the RHI agreement—or on the other at the headquarters of Sinn Féin, Connolly House, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, pointed out. The Executive collapsed because Martin McGuinness resigned from the Government in the wake of the RHI crisis—the green energy scheme. That is now going to cost taxpayers up to £490 million. The RHI scheme has been the subject of a public inquiry, very ably chaired by Sir Patrick Coghlin, who has heard testimony from those involved that was dreadful to listen to. It is astonishing to see who is following the RHI inquiry broadcasts in Northern Ireland. I know of women who watched it intently while doing their ironing. Never before has a public inquiry attracted quite so much interest among the general population.

Our most senior civil servants have said that spads “were in charge” following the reestablishment of the Assembly in 2007. We know that civil servants did not do ordinary things like keeping minutes of meetings, and were not informed about issues of which the spads were aware. We know that the Minister who presented the renewable heat incentive scheme regulations had not even read them when she brought them to the Assembly and asked MLAs to vote on them. So it goes on, but the story has been told and Sir Patrick will report, so there is no more excuse—it is dealt with. Now is the time for the DUP and Sinn Féin to go back into government, fight for the cause of Northern Ireland together and ensure proper governance.

I want to ask the Minister again: what is the urgency that required this Bill to pass through the other place in one day and through your Lordships’ House in such a rush? This is not an emergency situation. There is no sudden threat to the economy. There is no immediate terrorist threat. What is the reason for the haste?

The Act enables Northern Ireland civil servants to exercise departmental functions if it is in the public interest to do so, and will confer on the Secretary of State a duty to publish guidance on the exercise of functions, including the principles to be taken into account in deciding whether to exercise a function. The Secretary of State made it clear in the other place, as the Minister has, that this Bill was introduced because,

“we have to enable public services to continue to be delivered in Northern Ireland”.

The Secretary of State said that the Bill,

“will allow decisions to be taken by civil servants who have felt unable to do so since the Buick appeal was heard. We need to make sure that those civil servants can take those decisions, but this is not about their making major policy decisions or becoming lawmakers”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/10/18; col. 381.]

So far, so good, and that was what the Minister was telling us, until he came to Clause 4, which goes way beyond the position that the Government have taken. In a situation in where those who voted to amend the Bill in this way hold no seats representing anyone in Northern Ireland, where neither Conservatives nor Labour have an MP, there can be no proper accountability for decisions like that. Abortion—I place it on the record yet again—is not a human right. There is a right to life; there is no right to kill the unborn child in the womb. There has been no declaration of incompatibility in courts in Northern Ireland. Somebody said that we do not have a common set of human rights, but we do; they are established under the European Convention on Human Rights, and we are signatories.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness. Although this is not a time-limited debate, might she consider concluding her remarks pretty quickly, given that the guide time is six minutes?

[Baroness O'Loan]

I am coming to an end.

Most recently, in June the noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, gave me an assurance that the intention of the Government and the NIO,

“is to restore a power-sharing agreement and arrangement in Northern Ireland so that it will be up to the people of Northern Ireland and their elected officials to decide on abortion policy”.—[Official Report, 6/6/18; col. 1312.]

It cannot be compatible with the rule of law for a Secretary of State to be required by their Government and legislature to issue guidance which is not consistent with the law of the land. That is what would happen if the Bill were given effect. I have every sympathy with calls to give effect to the findings of the public inquiries into historical institutional abuse and hyponatremia-related deaths, and to give help to victims of the Troubles. However, I have not heard anyone advocating for Clause 4. I have not heard anyone advocating for direct rule, as suggested by other noble Lords; that is not the answer. We see Sinn Féin looking towards a referendum on a united Ireland, a profoundly important issue which does not commend itself to many of our population. We need action to bring the people together and that is what I ask of the Secretary of State.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness O'Loan

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 30th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I hope the noble Viscount does not think I said that. First, I am left in no doubt about the passion of the arguments presented by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and by the noble Viscount in supporting him. However, I think the Committee will appreciate that there is an extremely difficult line to take. We have said that we do not wish to go down the line, whether it is creeping or not, of direct rule. On the other hand—perhaps this is what I really want to say—the reassurance has to be given from this Dispatch Box that upholding our obligation to the people of Northern Ireland is a high priority, as is ensuring that vital public services are protected. This includes the issues raised on health. We are not afraid to step in, if or when we think it is right, and we have said that we will not rule out further legislative intervention. If that is not clear enough, I have to say that this is very much a subjective decision and constantly under review. I cannot say anything more. Finally, I clarify that the Bill enables the Department of Health to take these decisions, and if the UK Government intervened to step in, it could easily be construed as direct rule. I cannot go any further to clarify that point.

[Baroness O’Loan]

I do not want to hold the Committee up, but I am having some difficulty. The aim of the legislation is to enable the continuity of the delivery of services, yet vital services such as our health service do not receive that attention. I do not understand what is covered by the Bill if things such as this are not.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I hope I have made the point that health is very much a priority. I cannot say anything more. I have also attempted to define the line that we have to take, which is an extremely difficult one in the circumstances that we have been presented with. With that, I hope the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.