Estates of Deceased Persons (Forfeiture Rule and Law of Succession) Bill

Debate between Viscount Trenchard and Lord Dykes

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dykes]

It is unusual, and I find it surprising, but the noble Lord, Lord Empey, appears to have misunderstood completely the purpose of this amendment. I hope that Members of this House who are listening to this debate or who are outside but will come in later on will reflect carefully on the reality of this amendment. This new clause does not in any way damage any other part of the Bill. Whatever one’s views about the Bill—and I do not much like it—there is no damage to be done intrinsically and internally to the text of the Bill. The only differences are the three government defeats so far and what may happen with this amendment when the vote is called. That is all. The rest of the Bill goes through intact. That is part of the Government’s programme, and no one can gainsay that. The noble Lord is raising fears that should not exist in anybody’s mind. I hope he will reconsider because it is very important that the review process that my noble friend Lady Williams referred to, in such a step in the dark with this legislation, is essential at the end of this coalition period to start with and later on too.

[Viscount Trenchard]

My Lords, I tend to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that this is really a kill-the-Bill amendment. I listened with great interest to the very erudite and eloquent arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and others, but if you go out in the street tonight and ask anybody you come across in a pub or a square whether they think that the European Union Bill, which seeks to prevent Parliament passing further powers to the European Union without your consent, is otiose, I think you will find that people’s enthusiasm for this Bill will be further increased.

Amendments to introduce sunset clauses were debated at length in Committee, and I regret that I have heard nothing new today to persuade me that this Bill would gain in any way from the addition of one. It is clear that those who like the Bill do not want a sunset clause and that those who do not like it do. As my noble friends Lord Risby, Lord Lamont and others have explained, there certainly are occasions when the addition of a sunset clause is logical and sensible. Even though another place did not agree, I believe that your Lordships' House was right in trying to amend the Prevention of Terrorism Bill in 2004 and 2005 to include a sunset clause. Similarly, the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001, as enacted, contained a sunset clause. It is surely reasonable to include a sunset clause when a particular set of circumstances, which requires a particular measure to be enacted, prevails, but it is considered that that set of circumstances is likely to change in the foreseeable future. Similarly, it is arguably sensible to include a sunset clause when there is doubt about how an Act will work in practice. In such a case, it would be reassuring to a sceptical public to have a sunset clause that would act as a guarantee that Parliament would have to revisit the question within a specific period of time. However, I do not think such circumstances apply in this case because the purpose of the Bill is to draw a line in the sand and make it clear to the people that the Government will stop doing what they said over a period of years they would not do, but nevertheless continued to do, which is to pass powers and competences to the European institutions without seeking the people’s consent in a referendum. The public do not think that it is likely that this situation will change. Rather, the tendency for this Parliament to surrender powers to Europe is thought by many to be likely to increase and escalate.

Noble Lords should be aware that more than 30 directives covering financial services activities are currently being drafted in Brussels. This morning, I was visited by representatives of a trade association representing a section of the asset-management industry who were extremely concerned about this trend. It is absolutely right that we should work closely and collaboratively with other EU member states on improving the structural framework of the financial services industry, but it is equally important that we work equally closely and collaboratively on those matters with other international partners, especially the United States, Japan, China, Singapore and other countries that have significant financial markets. I believe this is necessary to stop the drift towards a centralised European state. Furthermore, I believe that it will still be necessary to stop that drift in three years, five years or 10 years. There is no reason to include a sunset clause unless you are one of those who honestly and sincerely believe that a federal state is our destiny.

I accept that there are noble Lords who believe that that is the right road for us to follow but I believe that the vast majority of the British people absolutely do not want that. I am delighted that this Government have had the courage to stand up and say that they will not let it happen. Noble Lords who support the amendment have argued that the Bill attacks parliamentary sovereignty. I believe that it does the reverse by preventing the Government permanently surrendering parliamentary sovereignty. If a future Government wish to remove such a safeguard, they will be free to do so—God forbid—but there is no need for this amendment because they will be free to do so by repealing the Act.

European Union Bill

Debate between Viscount Trenchard and Lord Dykes

Monday 13th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Trenchard]

My Lords, I am afraid that, although I listened with great interest to my noble friend Lady Falkner, I cannot agree with her that the amendment makes much sense. I listened carefully to the noble Lords, Lord Triesman and Lord Radice, in putting forward the amendment. It is an odd amendment. What does it actually mean? Any referendum that might be held under the Act is not going to be a referendum as to whether our membership of the EU is or is not a good thing. By definition, if the Government want to put a referendum event to the people, it follows that they must already have decided that it is a good thing, so to get the result they want in the referendum, they will obviously explain the benefits as energetically and positively as they can.

There is something strange about the language of the amendment, because the desirability of promoting the United Kingdom's membership of the EU sounds rather as though we are not a member but perhaps should be. We are a member, so obviously Ministers must explain what being a member of the EU means and must honour the obligations of being a member. I fear that that is rather subjective.

Furthermore, under the Bill, a referendum other than one which the Government wanted to win might be triggered. There are many ways in which a referendum can be triggered under the Bill, as noble Lords have said. Ministers of the Crown might be obliged to put a certain point to the country but they might not necessarily want the result to be yes. The noble Lord, Lord Radice, said that Ministers have not positively made the case in public for membership of the EU on a continuing basis. I suggest that that is because many Ministers of the Crown have felt that our membership of the EU is no longer so clearly wholly beneficial as they had thought it was, or as people thought it would be 10 years ago, or longer ago than that.

The amendment does not add anything to the Bill. It is somewhat subjective and I cannot support it.

[Lord Dykes]

My Lords, I agree very much with the earlier utterances and express regret that I cannot agree with what the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, said. I do not think that there is any evidence that Ministers have become less enthusiastic about our membership of the European Union. That is irrespective of the colour of the Government. That applies to both parties in power in recent times and, as far as I can detect, definitely applies to the coalition—very positively so in respect of the first part of the coalition statement about their aspirations on Europe.

I am sure that it is because of what the noble Lord, Lord Radice, mentioned and what the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, hinted at less directly: because of what the British press say. It is mainly the tabloids—the comics that masquerade as newspapers in Britain. They are more and more like magazines rather than newspapers. That is affecting the broadsheets as well, particularly those with owners living in tax havens overseas, not normally living in the UK and not paying UK direct taxes themselves, mainly the Murdoch press, but all of them anti-European and attacking our membership of the European Union in a most extraordinary and vicious way, which has not been seen in any other member state that I can think of.

I have to declare an interest as I also live regularly in France at weekends whenever possible. The French press are not at all like that. My colleagues in politics in Paris express astonishment that we allow the overseas-based owners of the press here who do not pay UK direct taxes themselves to attack our fundamental membership of the European Union in such a way. That has been the reason.

The most astonishing contrast that I noticed was just at the moment of the IMAX launch by the new Prime Minister Blair, with his new Government, still very, very popular, not quite walking on water but pretty close to it in those early days and causing a lot of inspiration and enthusiasm among the British public for the new Labour Government. That launch was the beginning of the decline in the new Labour Government's support for Europe in atmospheric and psychological terms. That was tragic. Britain in Europe was destroyed by it. So was the European Movement—although it still exists, it is struggling along as a very truncated body doing noble work but very much at the fringes of British life.

It is a tragedy for this country that we have had this nonsense for so long: politicians refusing to stand up bravely and correctly for the benefits of our membership of the European Union. Therefore, I very much welcome the proposed new clause. It was debated in Committee and therefore we need not go into all the arguments now. We particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Howell, for repeating that the purpose of the Bill is to oblige Ministers to promote the cause of our membership of Europe in what he would describe as a more correctly balanced sense because the public would have much greater participation through the referendum mechanism. Like the noble Lord, Lord Deben, I do not agree with that because I am against referendumitis and the populism that comes from it, but I can see his arguments. The proposed new clause would be a good thing, as we would return to promoting our membership—not in a propagandistic sense but in the practical sense of reassuring the public, explaining in detail many of the complicated matters and getting away from the dreadful xenophobia that is being allowed to develop because of the insouciance, nervousness, recalcitrance and hesitation of British politicians. There is a danger that that will start to affect the coalition if it continues, and I hope very much that it does not.

I do not want to take up too much of the House’s time but I conclude with an issue that may seem small, although it is very important. I refer to the display of flags—one of my favourite subjects. There is only one European flag within the vicinity of Westminster. It is on the Slovenian embassy building and we thank the Slovenians for their courage in daring to show it. It is the only one, apart from the one displayed on Europe Day in Parliament Square each year. All other major countries, together with some of the new ones, routinely proudly display the European flag alongside their patriotic national flag. Our national flag should be alongside the European flag on government buildings, as is routinely the case in France. When President Sarkozy makes a television broadcast, he always has the European flag alongside the tricolor. Why have all parties in this country been so hesitant and pathetic about this in the past? It is now time for the matter to be corrected. I have been encouraged by the words of the noble Lord, Lord Howell, on previous occasions in these debates and believe that the Government should accept this imaginative new clause.