Environmental Targets (Public Authorities) Bill [HL]

Debate between Viscount Trenchard and Baroness Young of Old Scone

Committee stage
Friday 13th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Evans of Rainow’s amendment, which is not inconsistent with my previous amendment seeking to exempt a particular public body from the list affected by the Bill brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs. I also support my noble friend’s desire to include another public body. But the conditions of the two public bodies are inherently different. Great British Energy-Nuclear is in a hugely different and uniquely difficult position, whereas I agree entirely with my noble friend that it is regrettable that the Canal & River Trust has removed bins.

Our towpaths, river communities and waterways are an essential part of our community. Think of a family who are out for a walk along a canal with three or four children eating bags of crisps and ice creams. Where can they put all the litter? It is not realistic to expect all of them to carry it all home in huge bags. The removal of the litterbins by the Canal & River Trust is hugely regrettable. For that reason and the others put forward by my noble friend, I support his amendment.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I hesitate to speak because I am very conscious that the next debate is waiting to begin. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Evans, for his amendment, and mainly for the degree of clarity it gave me on the status of the Canal & River Trust. According to the ONS, it is a public non-financial corporation as well as a charity, an interesting status that I have never come across before.

There is huge scope for debate about what goes on and comes off the list, although I would prefer it to be mostly about what goes on it. I will give another example to that of the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, who rightly pointed out that mayoral authorities should be on the list. I will make the case for one particularly important body, for which I should have tabled an amendment. If the Bill proceeds further, I will table an amendment to bring the newly created National Infrastructure and Service Transformation Authority—NISTA—on to the list. It has been set up to implement the 10-year national infrastructure strategy. It will have a key influence on land use and development, and their impact on climate and environment targets.

Under its memorandum of understanding, I believe that it has inherited—although it is very difficult to track this down—the climate change duties from one of its predecessor bodies, but it is not clear whether it has any duties towards the environmental and biodiversity targets. It is very important that this hugely impactful infrastructure role be brought on to the list. I do not believe that the Government can achieve both the climate change and the biodiversity and other environmental targets if bodies such as NISTA are not tasked with pulling their weight on this when exercising their powers and delivering their primary objectives. I believe that bodies can walk, talk and chew gum and that the future of this planet, this nation and this economy depends on all public bodies learning to do that. It is possible.

European Union Referendum Bill

Debate between Viscount Trenchard and Baroness Young of Old Scone

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Trenchard]

My Lords, I echo the views of my noble friend Lord Higgins. I argue against these amendments on the grounds that this is not the proper place or time to extend the franchise to 16 and 17 year- olds. Just because, in my view, a mistake was made in Scotland, that does not justify making a second mistake. Two wrongs do not make a right.

You could also argue that, if you think that 16 and 17 year-olds do not have the political maturity to make decisions for the next five years, how much less should we trust them to have a voice in decisions that are going to have an effect for a very much longer period than that? I do not think you should make a distinction on the grounds that someone is going to live much longer and this is going to affect them for much longer. If you have political maturity sufficient to elect your Member of Parliament, you probably have the same political maturity to vote in a referendum.

Another point that has not yet been made is this. I wonder what the result would be if you asked a cross-section of 18 to 25 year-olds whether they thought that 16 and 17 year-olds should be given the vote.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

I wonder whether the noble Viscount is aware of or takes part in the admirable Peers in Schools scheme that the Lord Speaker has instituted, where Peers go out and talk to young people about the nature of your Lordships’ House. Those of us who are active in that scheme meet a wide cross-section of young people—and please let us call them young people, not children; it is very demeaning to call 16 and 17 year-olds children, even though legally they may be so. When you go into classrooms of 16 and 17 year-olds, the degree of maturity, thoughtfulness and balance evinced by those young people is fascinating. They frighten the living daylights out of me with their level of maturity. If the noble Viscount has not had that experience of meeting those very mature young people, I wonder whether he might sign up to the Lord Speaker’s scheme instantly.

[Viscount Trenchard]

I accept the noble Baroness’s point of view. I understand, and agree with her, that young people today show a much greater level of maturity than they did a decade or two ago. This is a gradual process, which I welcome, and it is right that from time to time we should consider what the age of majority should be. But we should consider it in the round, as it affects the age at which young people should be regarded as full citizens. I also agree with the noble Baroness that it is demeaning to refer to 16 and 17 year-olds as children, so I am with her on very much, but this is not the right time to make a piecemeal change.