Estates of Deceased Persons (Forfeiture Rule and Law of Succession) Bill

Debate between Viscount Trenchard and Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Trenchard]

My Lords, I tend to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that this is really a kill-the-Bill amendment. I listened with great interest to the very erudite and eloquent arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and others, but if you go out in the street tonight and ask anybody you come across in a pub or a square whether they think that the European Union Bill, which seeks to prevent Parliament passing further powers to the European Union without your consent, is otiose, I think you will find that people’s enthusiasm for this Bill will be further increased.

Amendments to introduce sunset clauses were debated at length in Committee, and I regret that I have heard nothing new today to persuade me that this Bill would gain in any way from the addition of one. It is clear that those who like the Bill do not want a sunset clause and that those who do not like it do. As my noble friends Lord Risby, Lord Lamont and others have explained, there certainly are occasions when the addition of a sunset clause is logical and sensible. Even though another place did not agree, I believe that your Lordships' House was right in trying to amend the Prevention of Terrorism Bill in 2004 and 2005 to include a sunset clause. Similarly, the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001, as enacted, contained a sunset clause. It is surely reasonable to include a sunset clause when a particular set of circumstances, which requires a particular measure to be enacted, prevails, but it is considered that that set of circumstances is likely to change in the foreseeable future. Similarly, it is arguably sensible to include a sunset clause when there is doubt about how an Act will work in practice. In such a case, it would be reassuring to a sceptical public to have a sunset clause that would act as a guarantee that Parliament would have to revisit the question within a specific period of time. However, I do not think such circumstances apply in this case because the purpose of the Bill is to draw a line in the sand and make it clear to the people that the Government will stop doing what they said over a period of years they would not do, but nevertheless continued to do, which is to pass powers and competences to the European institutions without seeking the people’s consent in a referendum. The public do not think that it is likely that this situation will change. Rather, the tendency for this Parliament to surrender powers to Europe is thought by many to be likely to increase and escalate.

Noble Lords should be aware that more than 30 directives covering financial services activities are currently being drafted in Brussels. This morning, I was visited by representatives of a trade association representing a section of the asset-management industry who were extremely concerned about this trend. It is absolutely right that we should work closely and collaboratively with other EU member states on improving the structural framework of the financial services industry, but it is equally important that we work equally closely and collaboratively on those matters with other international partners, especially the United States, Japan, China, Singapore and other countries that have significant financial markets. I believe this is necessary to stop the drift towards a centralised European state. Furthermore, I believe that it will still be necessary to stop that drift in three years, five years or 10 years. There is no reason to include a sunset clause unless you are one of those who honestly and sincerely believe that a federal state is our destiny.

I accept that there are noble Lords who believe that that is the right road for us to follow but I believe that the vast majority of the British people absolutely do not want that. I am delighted that this Government have had the courage to stand up and say that they will not let it happen. Noble Lords who support the amendment have argued that the Bill attacks parliamentary sovereignty. I believe that it does the reverse by preventing the Government permanently surrendering parliamentary sovereignty. If a future Government wish to remove such a safeguard, they will be free to do so—God forbid—but there is no need for this amendment because they will be free to do so by repealing the Act.

[Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne]

I fully agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. I have listened carefully to all the points that eminent legal and other brains have put forward, including those from no less than former high eminences from the FCO. But I am a former Member of the other place and I prefer to put my confidence in the House of Commons European Scrutiny Committee of which I used to be a member. The committee suggests:

“The arguments over binding future Parliaments are interesting and the debate will continue among constitutional lawyers and experts. But, in our view, as the UK does not have a single codified constitutional document from which legislative power is derived, there are no unambiguously constitutional ‘higher’ laws. All Parliaments legislate for the future. Laws passed by one Parliament do not contain a sunset clause at the Dissolution. The real point is whether a government can, in law, make it difficult for a future Parliament to amend or repeal the legislation it has passed; in our view it cannot. Our conclusion therefore is straightforward—that an Act of Parliament applies until it is repealed”.

As Professor Hartley commented to the committee:

“[T]he Bill, assuming it becomes law, will be an Act of Parliament. We know that Parliament cannot bind future Parliaments, so a future Parliament could always change it. It could repeal it—totally repeal it—or amend it, or repeal it in part. I don't think that this Bill limits the powers of Parliament, any more than the European Communities Act 1972 does—the original one”.

I agree with that profoundly. I also welcome and support the coalition Government’s commitment to the use of a sunset clause in certain types of regulation—secondary legislation. It is a very good idea because it gives greater scrutiny of secondary legislation, which so often has just flowed through and frustrated many of us who wish that it did not. I congratulate the Government on their Sunsetting Regulations: Guidance, which was published in April 2010. The core purpose of this Bill is greater scrutiny by Parliament and the British people, as well as greater attempts at explanation by the Government of the day.

The referendum in Ireland has already been mentioned. I recall very well going to Ireland and promoting the knowledge that flowed throughout Ireland during its referendum. I cannot allow the moment of this sunset clause to pass without reminding noble Lords that in a 2009 survey, which took place at the time of the previous European Parliament elections and was published in April 2011, a huge number of people in the United Kingdom—81.4 per cent—believed that treaty changes should be decided by referendums—no less than 81 per cent, nearly 82 per cent. In all but two EU member states, more than 50 per cent of respondents thought the same. The level of dissatisfaction in the UK with the EU has increased over the years. The only two countries that have bucked this trend are those which have held referendums on treaty changes—Denmark and Ireland.