Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2013 Commons Chamber

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I rise to broadly support the Bill and to urge my colleagues to resist the amendment tabled by the Opposition. I do so with some reservations, which I will come to in the course of my remarks.

I begin by picking up the point that has been made by a number of hon. and right hon. Members about pre-legislative scrutiny. I have always been in favour of pre-legislative scrutiny. I think virtually every Bill is improved by it, although this time last year—or maybe the year before; how time flies—I had the rather sad experience of serving on the Joint Committee on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill, and look where that got us. Nevertheless, I have to say that pre-legislative scrutiny and proper scrutiny of legislation is the best way to defuse potential misunderstandings and to come to the true nature of what is being proposed.

The reason why I think the House should support this Bill’s Second Reading is that I truly believe it is a step forward, although it is not entirely the step forward it could be. I believe there are a number of misunderstandings, and that has certainly been true of some of today’s interventions. I think that pre-legislative scrutiny would have provided the opportunity to address them such that they might have been dealt with and we might have had clarity prior to proceedings. Although this is by no means a perfect Bill—what Bill ever is?—it is a reasonable start in the direction of transparency on lobbying. Therefore, I prefer to vote for it and then, I hope, see changes made during its consideration in Committee, rather than vote against it at this stage.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

A large amount of time has been provided to consider the Bill on the Floor of the House, but does my hon. Friend agree that pre-legislative scrutiny is important and that a large amount of time in Committee and on Report does not make up for the lack of it?

[John Thurso]

My hon. Friend is correct. That is exactly the point that I was making. Those are two different processes that arrive at different conclusions. However, we are where we are. I regret that we have not had pre-legislative scrutiny, but we will have three days in Committee and two days on consideration. I hope that we use that time wisely to explore all the issues before us.

[Mr Tom Harris]

The hon. Gentleman’s concern over the lack of pre-legislative scrutiny will have been heard on both sides of the House. Given that lack of scrutiny, will he join us in the Lobby to vote down the programme motion and to provide a more adequate amount of time to debate the Bill on the Floor of the House?

[John Thurso]

I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Gentleman, but I will not do that because it would not introduce pre-legislative scrutiny. There are three days to debate the Bill in Committee. There are some important big issues, but not a huge number of them, so we will probably have enough time to debate them in the days that are available.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[John Thurso]

I am terribly sorry, but we are time limited and two interventions is our lot. I am afraid that that is it for the time being, unless I get ahead of myself, which is always possible.

In the Bill, we are trying to introduce more transparency into areas that, by common consent on both sides of the House, require transparency. We are therefore required to act. We are looking to shed light on the hidden influence of big business, big money and big power.

I want to make it absolutely clear, as I did in the Opposition debate some 10 weeks ago, that lobbying is a good and integral part of the political process. When somebody comes to lobby me because they are my constituent or because I sit on a certain Committee, I consider that to be an important part of how I inform myself so that I may take reasonable decisions, ask good questions in Committees or act in the interests of my constituents. I would be very concerned if I felt that anything stood in the way of my doing that on behalf of my constituents or with regard to my work on a Committee. As far as I can see, nothing in the Bill will do that. I understand that some Opposition Members feel differently, but I believe that those issues can be worked out during the passage of the Bill.

We are proposing something relatively small and light touch. I would describe it as a good start. When an independent lobbyist—a company that lobbies for profit and is not associated with a particular company—is lobbying in a relatively secretive way and has the power to influence what is happening in our lives, it is right that those people should be registered and that we should be aware of what they are seeking to do. The Bill will not do that entirely, but it will not do anything that stops that from happening. It is a building block that may be built on.

Part 1 of the Bill provides for a statutory register of lobbyists, which was in our manifesto and the coalition agreement. The Liberal Democrats have pushed hard for that to be implemented. I am therefore delighted that my right hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House is involved in introducing the Bill. The register is something that we very much wanted to see. It is deliberately light touch and deals with an existing gap in the transparency arrangements for communication between third-party lobbyists and Ministers.

The coalition is the first Government to publish quarterly data on ministerial meetings. In that way, some sunlight that has never before shone on such ministerial activities has shone on them and we have more idea of what is going on. That could be improved and done a little more timeously, and some of the detail could be expanded on. It is not overly helpful to have a series of entries that say “general discussion” or whatever the term might be. It is very much a work in progress. However, I certainly would not wish to criticise the Government for starting something that we have never had before, even if I think that it could be improved. It is an important step forward.

The inclusion of third-party lobbyists means that we will be able to ascertain on behalf of which firm lobbying is taking place. That will fill a degree of the gap.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[John Thurso]

If it is quick.

[Duncan Hames]

On that point, when a registered lobbyist has a large number of clients, does my hon. Friend believe that the introduction of registration will enable the public to determine for which client they were lobbying in any given meeting with a Minister?

[John Thurso]

I am not entirely certain of the answer to that question, but I hope that will be the case. Perhaps when the Deputy Leader of the House responds, he might reply to that question.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[John Thurso]

I am terribly sorry, but that clock is a tough master.

Much of today’s contention has been about part 2. I believe that it is positive that people are motivated to campaign for what they believe in. It is obvious that such activity is moving away from traditional political parties and into third-party organisations. However, when campaigning is of a political nature, it is right that it should be controlled properly. That is an accepted principle in the current legislation, to which the Bill proposes amendments.

My understanding of the purpose of part 2 is that somebody who seeks to affect the outcome of the election—that is, a particular candidate or party will benefit from their actions—will be controlled. If, on the other hand, they offer policies to all parties in the hope that they will be taken up, they will not be included. Very basically, I understand that to be the core of what we are doing.

[Thomas Docherty]

That is not the case.

[John Thurso]

I believe that that is what the Bill sets out to do. That is an appropriate and good measure to take. If I am wrong, the way to flush that out is to table amendments in Committee.

I heard, as hon. Members across the House will have heard, the assurance that was given by the Leader of the House on that point. He stated clearly what the objective was and gave the commitment that if, for any reason, that objective was not met by the Bill as currently drafted, he would accept amendments or seek to make amendments to achieve the objective. There is good will on the part of Ministers to deal with something that is an appropriate addition to the legislation.

Under the current regulatory regime, third parties can spend a considerable amount of money. In the 2010 election, 25 third parties spent £3 million. I believe that the reduction that we are making and the fact that it will not be possible to target funds into one constituency are rather important. I was most taken by the intervention by the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann). I am with him, as I always am. He and I make common cause on many matters. There are a number of organisations that will be controlled that both he and I would like to see controlled. A foreign tycoon who funds a third party that sets out to spend a fortune in one constituency will be dealt with in the Bill.

[Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[John Thurso]

I will not, I am afraid.

Such examples would not have been dealt with before. That is an important step forward. I accept that there might be details that do not accord with the principle that has been set out, but we can flush those out in Committee and in later stages.

Part 3, which seeks to establish transparency in the membership numbers of trade unions, is important. There was a well-made point towards the end of the remarks of the shadow Leader of the House, which I will not follow up. Frankly, it is a pretty good principle and one that we should follow.

In conclusion, this is not a perfect Bill, but it responds in a measured way to a need that is evident and clear. It is a start and will, in all probability, be built on in the future. I seriously urge the House to vote for Second Reading and to decline the amendment so that we can at least have that debate.