Satellites: Adverse Effects on Astronomy

Viscount Stansgate Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Viscount Stansgate]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to protect the work of astronomy from the adverse effects of large numbers of satellites.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. The updated register of interests will show that I am a member of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Dark Skies.

[The Minister of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Lord Vallance of Balham) (Lab)]

The Government recognise the importance of mitigating the adverse effects of satellites on astronomy. At this year’s United Nations Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space, the UK played a key role in securing an agenda item on dark and quiet skies, focused on protecting optical and radio astronomy. The Government work with astronomers and industry to develop mitigation strategies, and remain committed to international collaboration on this issue.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. This is a complex area because the sky is being filled with thousands of satellites —around 28,000 are currently going around the earth—and they interfere with astronomy in both the radio and the optical wavelengths. Mr Elon Musk personally controls two-thirds of all the active satellites going around the earth, having launched his 7,000th satellite this autumn, and he has plans for 34,000 more. Against this backdrop, can my noble friend the Minister be confident that major international astronomical facilities—such as the Square Kilometre Array, which is based in South Africa and Australia and is headquartered at Jodrell Bank here in the UK—can undertake their work without serious interference from large satellite constellations? If not, what can the Government try to do to mitigate this interference by working with satellite operators, astronomers and international partners?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for the question. There is a 10% increase, year on year, in light pollution from land, and there is a substantial increase in the problem of radio and light interference from satellites, as my noble friend says. The number of satellites circulating was about 2,000 in 2019, but it is now well over 10,000 and projected to go very much higher. Because of that, we have pushed to get this very item discussed next year by the scientific and technical committee, which is a sub-committee of the Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space, to try to make sure that there is an international approach to reducing the problem, including mitigation strategies for satellites that will be put up.

Science and Technology: Economy

Viscount Stansgate Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Viscount Stansgate]

That this House takes note of the contribution of science and technology to the UK economy.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, to say it is a privilege and an honour to open a debate of this kind is an understatement. I have been in the House for just three years, and this is the first time that we have had a general debate about the contribution of science and technology—including engineering, research and innovation—to the UK economy. I welcome everyone in the Chamber today. A very impressive range of expertise shines through the speakers’ list, which includes my noble friend the Minister, for whom this is his first debate as Minister. In fact, we will hear from several other distinguished former Ministers of Science, whose experience in some cases stretches back over 30 years.

I am sure that there will be a bipartisan spirit this afternoon, but I begin by paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Waldegrave of North Hill, whose 1993 White Paper, Realising Our Potential, was the first time that science policy emerged in the modern era, having been ignored by Governments for far too long. The title of that White Paper remains very relevant today.

I welcome the range of attendance in this debate, and I am sorry that noble Lords have only four minutes to speak. I will highlight the maiden speaker. I made my own maiden speech three years ago this month, and I know just how the noble Baroness, Lady Freeman of Steventon, feels right now. I thank her for choosing today in which to make her own maiden speech, to which we all look forward.

When we begin our speeches, we often make reference to our register of interests, and I am proud to be president of the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, which is Parliament’s oldest all-party parliamentary group by a long way—85 years this year. That is not in any way a financial interest. I am very pleased that our former chair, Stephen Metcalfe, is with us in the Public Gallery watching the debate. In his own parliamentary career, he also chaired the Science, Innovation and Technology Committee in another place. Now that the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee has been reformed for the new Parliament, I very much hope that Members from all sides of the House will take advantage of the activity we undertake. For example, noble Lords should come to the STEM for BRITAIN event held in March and see the astonishing work of our early-career researchers who represent the future. If they cannot come, they can read about it in Science in Parliament, which is available in the post room and in their pigeonholes.

One of the great benefits of initiating the debate is that it has triggered a wealth of informed briefing from a wide range of scientific societies. Sadly, I cannot possibly make use of most of it in the time available, but it is important that Parliament understands what a formidable array of expertise exists in the country. My profound thanks go to the Royal Society of Biology, the Institute of Physics, the Royal Society of Chemistry, the Physiological Society, the Geological Society, Cancer Research UK, the Institute of Cancer Research, the University of Leeds, the Russell group of universities, the Microbiology Society, the Royal College of Pathologists, the Campaign for Science and Engineering, the Society for Experimental Biology, the Royal Astronomical Society, the Society of Chemical Industry and the Royal Society—not to mention, of course, POST and our own House of Lords Library. With the leave of the House, I intend to place a copy of all the briefings that I have received in the Library, so that it can be of use to Members.

Today is an excellent time to have this debate because of yesterday’s Budget, which referred to our

“extraordinary strengths in science and innovation”.

It also follows the investment summit earlier this month. Both events stressed the Government’s aim to create the long-term stability that is needed to use science and technology to grow the economy. This is a Government who are openly committed to growth and the core message from today’s debate will undoubtedly be to emphasise just how much science and technology contribute to the UK economy. Science is a long-term enabler of opportunity. Scientific advances underpin all areas across our economy and are essential to the Government’s five missions.

I forget who coined the phrase “punching above our weight” to describe the UK’s record in science. The basic statistics are well known. For example, we have about 1% of the world’s population and yet produce 16% of the most highly rated scientific papers. Our scientific research is truly excellent. The Government spend over £20 billion a year on R&D. Oxford Economics has estimated that, in 2023, the life sciences sector alone contributed over £13 billion. DSIT estimated in 2022 that the value of the digital sector, which includes everything from information technology to digital content and media, was over £158 million. In March last year, DSIT also estimated that the value of the UK’s AI sector was already £3.7 billion and growing. In February, the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit reported that the gross value added of the UK’s net-zero sector, which includes renewables, carbon capture manufacturing et cetera, was already £74 billion.

Also, there is no shortage of science sectors emphasising their own contribution. I will give a few examples. The Royal Astronomical Society says that the growing space sector is worth £19 billion a year. The Institute of Physics points out that the photonics industry, which is the technology of light, had an output of £15 billion in 2023, employing almost 80,000 people—as many as the automotive and aerospace industries combined. The Rolls-Royce small modular reactor programme is forecast to create 40,000 jobs and could generate an enormous export market of up to £250 billion by 2050. Meanwhile, the Royal Society of Chemistry points out that the chemical sciences sector generated £3.2 billion for the Exchequer. The Institute of Cancer Research says that its research has saved the NHS £68 million per year by updating clinical radiotherapy practice for cancer patients. Meanwhile, Cancer Research UK says that every £1 invested in cancer research in 2021 generated £2.80 of economic benefit, to the tune of nearly £1 billion.

In this Parliament and its successor, the life sciences sector holds enormous potential to drive economic growth and productivity, delivering goods, services, treatments, medicines and vaccines that are critical to the nation’s health and our resilience against—I hope not—any future pandemic. Overall, it is estimated that every £1 of public investment in R&D unlocks between £2 and £4 of private R&D investment in the longer term. I am pleased that the DSIT budget will increase from £12.5 billion for 2024-25 to £13.9 billion in 2025-26, which is real-terms increase of 8.5%.

So we have a lot going for us. We have world-class universities, not to mention places such as the Crick Institute, the Wellcome Foundation, the Catapult Network and so on. We have world-renowned public sector research establishments such as the National Physical Laboratory. I well remember a story told by a former Minister of Technology, to whom you might say I have a hereditary connection. He went to visit the NPL. When he was shown around, the director proudly said, “Here we can measure down to the smallest unit of measurement ever known, the POBA”. The Minister, being inquiring, asked, “What is a POBA?” He said, “Oh, Minister, it means point one of bugger all”. I hope that, when my noble friend the Minister next visits the NPL he will discover that it is still using the same unit of measurement today.

A word about the institutional landscape: the Government have been bequeathed a scientific landscape and institutional structure that can be made to work. Building on the science and technology framework published last year, the Government have just published an important industrial strategy Green Paper. This is central to the growth mission and its success will depend, crucially, on the application of science and technology. The Green Paper has identified eight sectors that drive growth: advanced manufacturing, clean energy, defence, creative industries, digital technologies, financial services, life sciences, and professional and business services.

We have UKRI. We have had the Nurse review. We have our world-class universities, a plan for a national data library and Project Gigabit. We also have ARIA, about which I hope we will hear more. We need to take advantage of the UK’s unique strengths to enable world-leading companies to grow and seize opportunities to lead in new and emerging industries. As yesterday’s Budget said,

“we are not doing enough to capitalise on these strengths”.

We must fund successful scale-up companies and not leave other countries to exploit our science to make millions for themselves.

I think our current structure will help. We now have a proper department in DSIT, with a Secretary of State at the Cabinet table for the first time in 30 years and distinguished Ministers in both Houses. We have a Cabinet committee chaired by the Prime Minister. Its job is to

“consider matters related to science and technology, to drive the United Kingdom’s economic growth and national security”.

Those are pretty much the same terms of reference as for this debate. We have a Chief Scientific Adviser and a network of advisers embedded in all departments, and we have a Science Innovation Network, which is embedded in all our embassies.

With a renewed commitment to an industrial strategy, we need to take advantage of the UK’s unique strengths to enable world-leading industries to grow and seize opportunities. If we match our undoubted research expertise with an industrial strategy that plays to our strengths, we can make an impact.

I will give the House an example. Your Lordships’ Science and Technology Committee, of which I am a member, is nearing the end of an inquiry into engineering biology, which is a very exciting new area of science. Put simply, in the future we will be able to make things by growing molecules and cells. Last week, the Government’s Chief Scientific Adviser, Dame Angela McLean, came to us and held up for the committee a handbag. It was not made of leather, nor of plastic; it was made of coconut oil that was processed by bacteria. The food industry is developing meat that is not real meat; it is grown in a laboratory. In the aircraft industry, there is real interest in producing synthetic jet fuel without using carbon or oil. All these new developments offer the additional benefit of recycling and helping us to reach our net-zero targets. That is why, incidentally, it is absolutely right for the Government to set up the regulatory innovation office to exploit these new areas.

What of the future? There are one or two things we must try to do. First, there is no doubt that we need to start with education. It is absolutely vital that we enthuse and inspire the next generation, and it must start in primary schools if not before, opening young hearts and minds to the wonders of science. We must make use of all the many scientific role models that exist, whether it is Maggie Aderin-Pocock on astronomy, Hannah Fry on maths or Hamza Yassin on wildlife photography. Brian Cox’s latest TV series on the solar system has been watched by millions. Of course, David Attenborough remains our national treasure, inspiring us with his documentaries: everything from “Life on Earth” to the new series, next weekend, which I think is entitled “Asia”. I think I am right in saying that my noble friend Lord Winston recently went to a school in Northamptonshire and the head teacher reported an upsurge of interest in science after his inspiring visit.

Secondly, we need to create and sustain a public and society that understand the importance of science and technology and are supportive of innovation. Whenever I meet someone who expresses great scepticism about science or, in recent years, vaccines, I say to them, “Well, just look at your mobile phone. There is not one iota”—perhaps I should say one POBA—“of a feature of a mobile phone that isn’t the result of science. It would not exist without science”.

Thirdly, another key to the future is to be as international as possible. The UK must maximise all available international co-operation. We should join and collaborate with as many international countries as we can, including countries in the Indo-Pacific. We have rejoined Horizon Europe—good—but now we need to prioritise an expanded role in its successor, Framework Programme 10. I have lost count of the number of times that I have been told that we need a visa system, with its costs, that attracts talent rather than deters it.

Fourthly, we must not take our universities for granted. On the contrary, the House is only too well aware of the signs of stress in the HE sector and the funding of our universities. There was a breakfast briefing for Peers on this subject last week.

Fifthly and finally, although I mean no disrespect to my noble friend the Minister, science and technology is too important to be left to DSIT alone. We need nothing less than a sustained cross-departmental science strategy to attract foreign direct investment and the global scientific talent that we need.

By the end of this Parliament, when we use the phrase “science superpower”, I for one want to feel that it is a reality and not a slogan. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, in making a few closing comments, I wish it was rather like those old red phone boxes, where you could press button B and speak for as long as you like. Sadly, I have only 60 seconds in which to thank everyone for taking part. The wealth of expertise in this House is amazing, and today’s debate is an example of the House at its best. There has been a good bipartisan spirit; there may have been a few comments about the Budget but, as somebody once said, recollections may vary. On the whole, the debate has been conducted in a good spirit.

I particularly thank my noble friend Lady Freeman, if I may call her that, for her excellent maiden speech—look at the impact it has had on all of us here today. I was rather pleased to convene a sub-committee of the “former Science Ministers’ club” as part of today’s debate. I very much hope that the Minister will feel that he has the support of the House as he undertakes his role. I, for one, am going to send a copy of today’s Hansard to members of the Cabinet committee, as it is worth them reading the debate and having this on their agenda.

Motion agreed.

Horizon Europe

Viscount Stansgate Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Viscount Stansgate]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the United Kingdom’s membership of Horizon Europe since rejoining the programme in September 2023.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. I warmly welcome my distinguished noble friend to the Dispatch Box for his first Parliamentary Question.

[The Minister of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Lord Vallance of Balham) (Lab)]

We have early indications that UK applications have increased in 2024 following Horizon Europe association in January. Making the association a success is our priority, but we recognise that it will take time to recover to the participation levels that we enjoyed in Horizon 2020. We are working with businesses and academia to address the barriers to entry and to support greater participation in the programme.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope the House will welcome the Minister’s reply, because it shows that we are moving in the right direction. I also welcome the letter sent by the Secretary of State last week to the Science and Technology Select Committee, of which I am a member, which outlined the Government’s negotiating stance in respect of framework programme 10 —Horizon’s successor. Do the Government hope to associate themselves with work on computing and space, with which we have not so far been associated? Finally, can the Minister, as I hope he will, give the House some encouragement that his department and the Home Office will have discussions to ensure that the visa system and its costs are designed in such a way as to maximise the chances of getting the best and brightest scientists to come to do their research here in Britain? That would be good for science and good for Britain.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I praise my noble friend Lord Stansgate for his persistence and effectiveness in bringing the matter of European science funding to this House. He will have seen that, on 26 September, we published a position paper on FP10, laying out that we would like to explore greater association with that programme and to be part of trying to shape it, provided that it delivers excellence, is relevant and delivers value for money for both the taxpayer and researchers. Visas are under constant review by the Home Office. What is encouraging is that the visa costs, for both the fast-track visas and others, can be covered by Horizon Europe funding.

King’s Speech (4th Day)

Viscount Stansgate Excerpts

Monday 22nd July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very glad to contribute to today’s debate, although it is always a challenge to follow the formidable knowledge of the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar.

This is the first time I have spoken at the beginning of a new Parliament, and from this side of the House. Indeed, in this House, the rearrangement of the seating is the only definite proof that an election has in fact taken place. We now have a Government who have placed science and innovation at the very heart of their economic strategy, which is the subject of today’s debate. The appointment of my noble friend the Minister is the clearest evidence of the seriousness of this commitment. It is a wonderful appointment and he is a very welcome addition to this House. He joins a select group of Members whose maiden speech and first ministerial speech, which was excellent, turn out to be one and the same. I also hope the House will allow me to say that in a previous capacity, when for decades I organised many of the major events involving science and Parliament in the Palace of Westminster, he always took part in these events, no matter how busy he was—and as the Government’s Chief Scientific Adviser, he was very busy. He made the time to talk to younger scientists and engineers and to encourage them in their careers and to take part in public life. I am sure he will continue to do so as a Minister.

I welcome the new language now being used to describe our future relationship with Europe on science, not just the progress being made on Horizon Europe, which was the subject of my first ever Oral Question, and such initiatives as greater youth mobility within Europe and our possible reintegration with the Erasmus scheme, but above all on re-establishing trust, so that the UK can be considered a reliable partner again when it comes to science and research.

I am sure the Minister will agree that as we develop renewable energy, the fact remains that the UK will still need strategic access to energy when it happens that the wind does not blow and the sun does not shine. We are going to need a strategic energy reserve. The Science and Technology Committee, of which I am a member, recently published our report Long-duration Energy Storage, and gave it the subtitle Get on with It. This was for a reason, because there is little time to lose. I hope the new Minister will be able to make progress and take advantage of any forthcoming changes in planning laws.

There are also new opportunities for the future that we simply must not miss, such as in engineering biology. It is a transformative technology, already acknowledged as one of the five critical technologies of the future, and I hope the House will have the opportunity to debate some of these exciting new opportunities in the future.

If the Government want science and innovation to pave the way for greater economic growth, it is going to require the greatest investment to unlock this potential. We need to reach the target R&D spend of our major competitor nations, alongside the development of a long-term industrial strategy that provides the stable framework for investment in science. As a country, we have a great reputation for scientific innovation yet, at the same time, a poor record for exploiting the innovation for the benefit of our economy, leaving it too often to other countries to exploit it commercially. In the decade of national renewal that lies ahead, I very much hope the Government and the new Minister of Science will succeed in reversing this dismal pattern. If we can dispense with the scientific phrase “valley of death” once and for all, that would be very good progress.

However, this is not just a debate about what the Government do. It is vital that Parliament has strong links with the science community outside the House, getting access to the widest range of advice as possible, and that Parliament fully supports the machinery that connects science to Parliament. A major part of this connection is the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, which is by far Parliament’s oldest all-party parliamentary group; it dates back to 1939 when Parliament realised it needed to keep in active contact with the boffins—a term of endearment in those days—from whom much was expected and delivered in the Second World War.

Over the past 85 years, the P&SC has guided Parliament on science issues and helped to educate generations of parliamentarians on the importance of science, technology, engineering and innovation. I am its current president—there are no financial interests, but it is in the register—and with the defeat of our chair in the general election, I now have the responsibility of getting it restarted. If I may use Hansard as a publisher, I invite as many of my colleagues as possible, in this place and another place, to Committee Room 4A at 12 noon on Tuesday 30 July for the inaugural meeting. Without this meeting, all the work planned cannot go ahead. It is to Parliament’s benefit that it should have access to the widest possible science advice. I commend that approach to the House.

Deepfakes: General Election

Viscount Stansgate Excerpts

Wednesday 8th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, if, at the very height of the forthcoming general election, deepfakes were to emerge, what would be the role of Ofcom, in particular regarding the taking down of material that is manifestly false? Does Ofcom have the resources necessary to do this?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

In the regrettable scenario mentioned by the noble Lord, such actions would generally fall to the Joint Election Security and Preparedness Unit and the election cell that will have been set up for the duration of the election to conduct rapid operational rebuttal and other responses to such things. We would not necessarily look to Ofcom until after the event because of the speed at which things would have to move.

Universities: Sensitive Research

Viscount Stansgate Excerpts

Tuesday 30th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises a very important point; it is not about naming one or more countries and targeting them. The non-legislative and legislative elements of the entire approach to this are about being actor agnostic, and simply looking at the cases as they arise.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, further to the points made by my noble friend, the Government said they are taking a range of measures, but if you take an area like biosecurity, which I am sure the Minister will agree is a very significant potential future threat, with people perhaps developing pathogens, aided possibly by using AI technology to do them more easily and quickly, is there not a case for mandatory surveillance over, for example, access to materials, which would indicate where somebody might be trying to do something that has that dual purpose—in other words, something bad rather than something good? Does the Minister agree that a voluntary scheme, such as I understand exists at the moment, may not be enough?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed, and we must recognise that there are limits to a voluntary scheme, particularly where actors are genuinely malign. I reassure the noble Viscount that any research contracted for purposes of defence, or indeed for purposes that might be used for defence, would be subject to vetting in the usual way. Depending on the nature of the research, the greater the vetting.

Data Protection and Digital Information Bill

Viscount Stansgate Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 17th April 2024 Grand Committee

Clause 103, as amended, agreed.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Stansgate) (Lab)]

My Lords, for the convenience of the Committee and in view of the forthcoming votes, I think it would be helpful to pause here and return after the two votes have taken place. Is that agreeable?

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I would much rather not. We are due to end at 8.15 pm and I should like to hold to that. We seem to have some while before anything is going to happen. Shall we not just make progress?

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Stansgate) (Lab)]

All right, we shall make as much progress as we can.

Amendment 197A

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Harding of Winscombe (Con)]

My Lords, I want to speak briefly in support of, first, the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Holmes, which would recreate the office of the Biometrics and Surveillance Camera Commissioner.

As I have done on a number of occasions, I shall tell a short story; it is about the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. Noble Lords may wonder why I am starting there. I remember very clearly one of the first debates that I participated in when I was at university—far too long ago. It was at the Oxford Union, and Dame Mary Warnock came to speak about what was then a highly contentious use of new technology. In this country, we had that debate early; we established an authority to oversee what are very complex scientific and ethical issues. It has remained a settled issue in this country that has enabled many families to bear children, bringing life and joy to people in a settled and safe way.

This data issue is quite similar, I think. Other countries did not have that early debate, which I remember as a teenager, and did not establish a regulator in the form of the HFEA. I point to the US, which was torn apart by those very issues. As the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, has just set out, the public are very concerned about the use of biometric data. This is an issue that many sci-fi novels and films have been made about, because it preys on our deepest fears. I think that technology can be hugely valuable to society, but only if we build and maintain trust in it. In order to do that, you need consistent, long-standing, expert regulation.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, I do not understand why the changes that this Bill brings will make things better. It narrows the scope of protection to data protection only when, actually, the issues are much broader, much subtler and much more sophisticated. For that reason and that reason alone, I think that we need to remove these clauses and reinstate the regulator that exists today.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I find myself in a fortunate position: we have made progress fast enough to enable me to go from one end of the Room to the other and play a modest part in this debate. I do so because, at an earlier stage, I identified the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and I very much wish to say a few words in support of them.

Reference has already been made to the briefing that we have had from CRISP. I pay tribute to the authors of that report—I do not need to read long chunks of it into the record—and am tempted to follow the noble Lord in referring to both of them. I sometimes wonder whether, had their report been officially available before the Government drafted the Bill, we would find ourselves in the position we are now in. I would like to think that that would have had an effect on the Government’s thinking.

When I first read about the Government’s intention to abolish the post of the Biometrics and Surveillance Camera Commissioner, I was concerned, but I am not technically adept to know enough about it in detail. I am grateful for the advice that I have had from CRISP and from Professor Michael Zander, a distinguished and eminent lawyer who is a Professor Emeritus at LSE. I am grateful to him for contacting me about this issue. I want to make a few points on his and its behalf.

In the short time available to me, this is the main thing I want to say. The Government argue that abolishing these joint roles will

“reduce duplication and simplify oversight of the police use of biometrics”.

Making that simpler and rationalising it is at the heart of the Government’s argument. It sounds as if this is merely a tidying-up exercise, but I believe that that is far from the case. It is fair to accept that the current arrangements for the oversight of public surveillance and biometric techniques are complex, but a report published on 30 October, to which noble Lords’ attention has already been drawn, makes a powerful case that what the Government intend to do will result in losses that are a great deal more significant than the problems caused by the complexity of the present arrangements. That is the paper’s argument.

The report’s authors, who produced a briefing for Members’ use today, have presented a mass of evidence and provided an impressively detailed analysis of the issues. The research underpinning the report includes a review of relevant literature, interviews with leading experts and regulators—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, there is a Division in the Chamber. There are two votes back to back so the Committee will just come back as and when.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

I do not have the benefit of seeing a Hansard update to know after which word I was interrupted and we had to leave to vote, so I will just repeat, I hope not unduly, the main point I was making at the time of the Division. This was that the central conclusion of the CRISP report is that the Government’s policy

“generates significant gaps in the formal oversight of biometrics and surveillance practices in addition to erasing many positive developments aimed at raising standards and constructive engagement with technology developers, surveillance users and the public”.

The reason I am very glad to support the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, in these amendments is that the complexities of the current regulatory landscape and the protections offered by the BSCC in an era of increasingly intensive advanced and intrusive surveillance mean that the abolition of the BSCC leaves these oversight gaps while creating additional regulatory complexity. I will be interested to see how the Minister defends the fact that this abolition is supposed to improve the situation.

I do not want to detain the Committee for very long, but I shall just read this one passage from the report into the record, because it is relevant to the debate we are having. We should not remove

“a mechanism for assuring Parliament and the public of appropriate surveillance use, affecting public trust and legitimacy at a critical moment concerning public trust in institutions, particularly law enforcement. As drafted, the Bill reduces public visibility and accountability of related police activities. The lack of independent oversight becomes amplified by other sections of the Bill that reduce the independence of the current Information Commissioner role”.

In short, I think it would be a mistake to abolish the biometrics commissioner, and on that basis, I support these amendments.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, it has been a pleasure to listen to noble Lords’ speeches in this debate. We are all very much on the same page and have very much the same considerations in mind. Both the protection of biometric data itself and also the means by which we regulate its use and have oversight over how it is used have been mentioned by everyone. We may have slightly different paths to making sure we have that protection and oversight, but we all have the same intentions.

The noble Lord, Lord Holmes, pointed to the considerable attractions of, in a sense, starting afresh, but I have chosen a rather different path. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, who mentioned Fraser Sampson, the former Biometrics and Surveillance Camera Commissioner. I must admit that I have very high regard for the work he did, and also for the work of such people as Professor Peter Fussey of Essex University. Of course, a number of noble Lords have mentioned the work of CRISP in all this, which kept us very well briefed on the consequence of these clauses.

No one has yet spoken to the stand part notices on Clauses 130 to 132; I will come on to those on Clauses 147 to 149 shortly. The Bill would drastically change the way UK law enforcement agencies can handle biometric personal data. Clauses 130 to 132 would allow for data received from overseas law enforcement agencies to be stored in a pseudonymised, traceable format indefinitely.

For instance, Clause 130 would allow UK law enforcement agencies to hold biometric data received from overseas law enforcement agencies in a pseudonymised format. In cases where the authority ceases to hold the material pseudonymously and the individual has no previous convictions or only one exempt conviction, the data may be retained in a non-pseudonymous format for up to three years. Therefore, the general rule is indefinite retention with continuous pseudonymisation, except for a specific circumstance where non-pseudonymised retention is permitted for a fixed period. I forgive noble Lords if they have to read Hansard to make total sense of that.

This is a major change in the way personal data can be handled. Permitting storage of pseudonymised or non-pseudonymised data will facilitate a vast biometric database that can be traced back to individuals. Although this does not apply to data linked to offences committed in the UK, it sets a concerning precedent for reshaping how law enforcement agencies hold data in a traceable and identifiable way. It seems that there is nothing to stop a law enforcement agency pseudonymising data just to reattach the identifying information, which they would be permitted to hold for three years.

The clauses do not explicitly define the steps that must be taken to achieve pseudonymisation. This leaves a broad scope for interpretation and variation in practice. The only requirement is that the data be pseudonymised

“as soon as reasonably practicable”,

which is a totally subjective threshold. The collective impact of these clauses, which were a late addition to the Bill on Report in the Commons, is deeply concerning. We believe that these powers should be withdrawn to prevent a dangerous precedent being set for police retention of vast amounts of traceable biometric data.

The stand part notices on Clauses 147 to 149 have been spoken to extremely cogently by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, and the noble Baroness, Lady Harding. I will not repeat a great deal of what they said but what the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, said about the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority really struck a chord with me. When we had our Select Committee on Artificial Intelligence, we looked at models for regulation and how to gain public trust for new technologies and concepts. The report that Baroness Warnock did into fertilisation and embryology was an absolute classic and an example of how to gain public trust. As the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, said, it has stood the test of time. As far as I am concerned, gaining that kind of trust is the goal for all of us.

What we are doing here risks precisely the reverse by abolishing the office of the Biometrics and Surveillance Camera Commissioner. This was set up under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, which required a surveillance camera commissioner to be appointed and a surveillance camera code of practice to be published. Other functions of the Biometrics and Surveillance Camera Commissioner are in essence both judicial and non-judicial. They include developing and encouraging compliance with the surveillance camera code of practice; raising standards for surveillance camera developers, suppliers and users; public engagement; building legitimacy; reporting annually to Parliament via the Home Secretary; convening expertise to support these functions; and reviewing all national security determinations and other powers by which the police can retain biometric data. The Bill proposes to erase all but one—I stress that—of these activities.

The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, quoted CRISP. I will not repeat the quotes he gave but its report, which the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, also cited, warns that

“plans to abolish and not replace existing safeguards in this crucial area will leave the UK without proper oversight just when advances in artificial intelligence (AI) and other technologies mean they are needed more than ever”.

The Bill’s reduction of surveillance-related considerations to data protection compares unfavourably to regulatory approaches in other jurisdictions. Many have started from data protection and extended it to cover the wider rights-based implications of surveillance. Here, the Bill proposes a move in precisely the opposite direction. I am afraid this is yet another example of the Bill going entirely in the wrong direction.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I do not think we are moving from a simple position. We are moving from a very complex position to a less complex position.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

Can the Minister reassure the Committee that, under the Government’s proposals, there will be sufficient reporting to Parliament, every year, from all the various bodies to which he has already referred, so that Parliament can have ample opportunity to review the operation of this legislation as the Bill stands at the moment?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Yes, indeed. The information commission will be accountable to Parliament. It is required to produce transparency and other reports annually. For the other groups, I am afraid that many of them are quite new to me, as this is normally a Home Office area, but I will establish what their accountability is specifically to Parliament, for BSSC and the—

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

Will the Minister write to the Committee, having taken advice from his Home Office colleagues?

Horizon Europe

Viscount Stansgate Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2024 Lords Chamber

Tabled by

[Viscount Stansgate]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what progress has been made since the United Kingdom re-joined Horizon Europe.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Stansgate, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

Artificial Intelligence: Regulation

Viscount Stansgate Excerpts

Monday 4th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his congratulations with respect to the AI safety summit. We continue to engage internationally, not just with the larger international AI fora but very regularly with our colleagues in the US and the EU, both at ministerial and official level. The eventual landing zone of international interoperable AI regulations needs to be very harmonious between nations; we are pursuing that goal avidly. I may say that we are at this point more closely aligned to the US approach, which closely mirrors our own.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, in answer to my noble friend Lord Bassam on the Front Bench a moment ago, the Minister referred to the Defending Democracy Taskforce. When you consider that the National Cyber Security Centre, which is part of GCHQ, has recently publicly warned that in the next general election we will be subjected to a great many deepfakes along the lines indicated—we have seen them in action already—will the Minister agree to bring to the House, at an early stage, evidence of what the Defending Democracy Taskforce is doing? There is a sense of urgency here. As everyone knows, there will probably be a general election next year. On behalf of the electorate, we want to know that they will be able to understand what is real and what is not.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed. I should point out that the NCSC and other cyber actors are also involved in the Defending Democracy Taskforce. I will liaise with the task force to understand what exactly the communications and engagement arrangements are with Parliament and elsewhere. I will take steps to make that happen.

Research, Development and Innovation Organisational Landscape Report

Viscount Stansgate Excerpts

Monday 20th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Yes, indeed. As I say, businesses fund about 60% of R&D in this country and conduct just over 70% of it. I certainly would keenly look into any ability to campaign to encourage more people to take advantage of the generous tax credits scheme.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, when the review is published, will the Minister undertake to persuade the Leader of the House to arrange a debate in government time on it and all the issues related to it? Or, at the very least, can the Government arrange for a Statement to be made from the Dispatch Box so that Members in this Chamber can ask questions as a result of its publication?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for the suggestion. I will happily take that up with the Leader of the House and all the usual channels.