Armed Forces Bill

Debate between Viscount Slim and Lord Touhig

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Grand Committee

[Viscount Slim (CB)]

Just to give noble Lords an example of an incident that might have involved an inquest and lessons learnt, in Korea, in an hour and a half, my battalion lost about—I am giving approximate figures as I do not remember them—probably nearly 30 dead and slightly more than 70 wounded. The reason was that during the battle, when we called for air support, we got some excellent American pilots, but they bombed us with napalm, instead of the enemy. We would call that “blue on blue” today, and you would have an investigation. Of course, it encouraged the enemy, who were the North Koreans at that time, to put in a counterattack, so we really had a very unpleasant time for a couple of hours. In those days, when we had a good number of soldiers, we had a reinforcement system, at the back of the Korean peninsula and in Japan, that sent you, within 24 hours, fully battle -trained soldiers to replace them—and we got about 100 or 110 good new soldiers.

Today, someone would want to have an inquest about why we were bombed. The chaps made a mistake, we had all those casualties—what use is an inquest? You have to get on with the battle. Lessons learnt—well yes, we can learn a lesson in 20 minutes about how to improve on what went wrong. In those early days of close air support, it was a lengthy process—not like today, when it is almost instantaneous. The military is the first to make amends for, and take decisions about, what went wrong and put that right. I do not see how a coroner with no military experience looking at that disaster would have helped at all. You must get on with the war.

The noble Earl was right to talk about what happens when a chap you have with you and who is your responsibility is killed. As the noble Lord, Lord West, said, you write to his mother, father, wife, daughter and whoever there is, and I am not sure that you write just a little—you write quite a lot. Those are the hardest letters to write of any kind. When everyone else is having a night’s sleep, you are up all night writing those letters—it is not just one. The commanding officer will write and so will his platoon or company commander. The wretched widow, mother or whoever gets two or three letters. On the whole, because you must explain how and why the son was killed, you write rather fully. You write in your own hand. When there are 30 of those letters to write, that is quite difficult. Do not tell me that the odd tear does not come down from the officer writing them.

Inquests play into the hands of the opposition nine times out of 10. On lessons learnt, nobody learns them quicker than the Army, Navy or Air Force.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, I will be brief. This debate is very important and shows that there has been a degree of overlap between inquests into the death of an individual and inquiries into perhaps wider problems that have arisen in conflict.

I spent 27 years working in newspapers and publishing before entering the House of Commons. I know only too well from my time as a young journalist covering inquests how important they were to a grieving family who had sometimes lost a loved one in the most tragic circumstances. With that experience of observing, I am not sure that inquests brought closure to a family coming to terms with a sudden and unexpected death but I have no doubt that they contributed to a sense of healing and understanding that the family was desperate for—an understanding of what happened and why some tragic death occurred to a son, daughter, husband or wife.

To no other group is that more important than to service families. A service family worries and frets as soon as its loved ones are sent on deployment somewhere in the world to defend Britain’s interests. We all agree that we have a duty of care to those who serve in our Armed Forces but we also have a duty of care to the families of those who serve. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, made clear that this is a probing amendment, really seeking to find out more about the present way in which these things operate. That is important and this is a step in the direction. It is fully supported on this side.

Armed Forces Bill

Debate between Viscount Slim and Lord Touhig

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Slim]

My Lords, while we were in Committee in your Lordships’ Chamber, there was a very fine debate on the Commonwealth and how it could be brought closer together and how we could enhance it. There were some excellent speeches. I think this whole question, put by the noble and gallant Lord, of Commonwealth decorations and medals received would bring the Commonwealth even closer together. After all, in the past three years, one New Zealander and two Australians got the Victoria Cross. There seems to be no problem about them participating; they are from the Commonwealth.

The Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence have missed a point or two about the PJM medal of Malaysia, which is in dispute at the moment. The HD Committee, which I feel is the right way to go about these things, and I have said so in Committee, has missed a trick. Here is a Muslim nation—sophisticated, democratic and ably led—offering in gratitude a medal of thanks to all our veterans. That is really what it is. It is about the only nation I can think of that we have left that has thanked us like this. Of course, history shows, as many noble Lords will recall, that the gratitude comes from the fact that while the terrorist campaign was going on, and the British were definitely running that, it gave the Malays time to make their Government and to build their democracy.

As I said in Committee, I do not think that the HD Committee advised the Sovereign well. I would put it no stronger than that because I would not wish to embarrass the Sovereign in any way. We have not been very clever, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, says, in the way in which we have treated the veterans in rather rude, grubby and unfriendly letters that say, “You can do this but you can’t do that”. There is discontent among those veterans. They are old men and women now. Many in the Brigade of Gurkhas spent 15 years of their lives in Malaya, and they are not allowed to wear the medal. Many British service men and women in the 11-year period went back one, two, three more times. This is giving, and this is service—to Britain and to Malaysia. The noble Lord the Minister wears such a medal himself. I know that he puts it on the inside of his jacket when he goes out and makes sure that he has it on. I say to the noble Lord the Minister that if I appeared in front of the Agong or any of the Malayan generals whom I know, respect and look up to and I was not wearing a PJM, they would be very offended.

Let us ask the noble Lord the Minister to refuse the recommendation and look at this again. The HD Committee should not be too proud to change its mind. As the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, said, we are moving on and things are different from how they were in wartime and in the early days after World War II. The noble Lord the Minister wears his general service medal bravely and proudly for his time as an excellent cavalry officer in Malaysia. I ask him to look again and not to let the civil servants rule him all the time.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig. The issue of the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal is a stain on the honour of Great Britain. This is no way to treat our veterans. They are told that they can accept a medal awarded by His Majesty the King of Malaysia but that they must not wear it. The decision was based on advice to Her Majesty the Queen from the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals. I have been involved in this matter, with other noble Lords and noble and gallant Lords, over the years. We were told that one reason why the HD Committee reached its conclusion was the double-medalling and five-year rule. However, the double-medalling and five-year rule was set aside in order that the men could accept a medal and then reimposed to prevent them wearing it. This is appalling. To add further shame, the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals then advised that they should wear it for one week when they were invited to return to Malaysia for the celebration of its 50th anniversary of independence. What an appalling way to treat our veterans.

Mention has been made of the way in which some veterans had communications from various departments and civil servants. I have a letter from a veteran who said that he was advised by a civil servant that he could stuff his PJM back into his Kellogg's packet because the medal’s status meant nothing. What a way to talk to somebody who fought for our Armed Forces in the jungles of Malaysia but not in the jungles of Whitehall. I have sought, through freedom of information legislation, more information on how the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals reached its decision. Members often do not meet; they communicate and reach their decisions by e-mail. It is a good thing that we did not have e-mails in 1957 at the start of the Malaysian campaign, or some of the boys we wanted to send might have said, “I’m not going but I’ll send an e-mail of support”. This is an appalling way to treat our veterans.

In a few weeks, on November 11, we will remember those who gave their lives for Britain. There could be no better time to take stock and say, “We’ve got this wrong, we need to review this and ensure that these boys are able to wear a medal that they richly deserve”. I know that the noble Lord the Minister feels this in his heart. I echo the comments made by the noble Lord: set aside the advice given by civil servants and anybody else. The right thing to do is to let our boys wear a medal. Let us—as a Government, as a Parliament and as a country—honour them in the way that they deserve.