Policing and Crime Bill

Debate between Viscount Simon and Lord Rosser

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 7th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Simon (Lab)]

My Lords, I will mention just a couple of things. First, in the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act all those years ago I got an amendment through on the evidence on roadside breath-testing, which will get the readings there and then, rather than two hours or so later at the police station. I would love to see this kit eventually approved by the Home Office. It has not been approved yet. Secondly, we are talking about having a glass of wine or whatever. I am teetotal so I would not have the slightest idea but I have been told that the glasses of wine in most restaurants and pubs have got bigger. Therefore, the chance of going above the limit has also increased.

[Lord Rosser]

Unfortunately, I was not able to get to the meeting that was organised yesterday but, bearing in mind that previously the Government’s stance has been not to go down the road of these amendments, it would be of some use if the Minister made it clear whether or not, in the light of what has been said in the debate, they are going to take any note of what does or does not emerge from what has happened in Scotland, which has already reduced the limit, and whether the Government themselves are going to initiate some sort of investigation into what the impact has been in Scotland. I think the Government’s argument has been that any change should be based on hard evidence. That is one obvious source of hard evidence. It would be a bit disappointing if there was any indication by the Government that they are not actually going to pay very much notice to what does or does not happen in Scotland as a result of the reduction in the limit.

Motor Vehicles (Wearing of Seat Belts) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2015

Debate between Viscount Simon and Lord Rosser

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Grand Committee

[Viscount Simon (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness the Minister described this very well. It makes perfect sense. It will help maintain the health and safety of very young children. I have only two questions but I do not know whether she will know the answers. How has the new type of child crash-test dummies been changed? How has the new side-impact test been changed again?

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

Perhaps I may raise just one or two points on these regulations. In particular I refer to the impact assessment. Impact assessments quite often contain little gems that are not actually set out in the Explanatory Memorandum. This impact assessment sets out the policy objectives and states that:

“The policy objective is to reduce the number and seriousness of injuries to child vehicle occupants whilst keeping any additional burden to industry or vehicle users to a proportionate level”.

It goes on to talk about UN-ECE Regulation 129, to which the Minister has referred, as intending to provide additional safety benefits over and above the existing standards. As I understand it, this regulation, which has been accepted by the EU, is not compulsory. However, I note that when the impact assessment goes on to look at the policy options, it sets out the first one as “do nothing”, which is fairly obvious, while the second option would allow the use of regulation 129 covering standard child restraints in vehicles as well as the existing regulation 44 standard. It states that this is the favoured policy option, and that indeed is what the Minister has said.

The assessment then goes on to set out that a third option to require all new child seats sold from the date of implementation to be of regulation 129 standard was dismissed, which is fairly strong language, on the basis that this would go beyond the requirements of the EU directive and would be considered to be gold-plating and not be deliverable. Am I to understand that implementing a directive in a gold-plated way means that you implement it in such a way so as to reduce the number of child fatalities, as well as the number of serious and slight injuries, on the basis, as we are told, that the new restraint under regulation 129 is safer?

Further on in the impact assessment, on page 5, two policy options are set out, excluding the do-nothing one. The second one, which I think is the one that has been dismissed—I should like to know by whom—states:

“Require all new child seats sold from date of implementation (early 2015) to be of Regulation 129 standard”.

It continues:

“This would ensure that all new units sold would be of a higher safety standard, and also ensure that these safer child restraints permeate the market quicker than would be the case under option 1”.

That is the option that the Minister, on behalf of the Government, has said is favoured and is indeed provided for in these regulations. Can the noble Baroness confirm that, given the reference to the fact that this would constitute gold-plating, the definition of “gold-plating” would ensure safer child restraints being required and that they would also,

“permeate the market quicker than would be the case under option 1”?

It would be an interesting example of what gold-plating means. Perhaps a rather happier wording could have been used in the impact assessment instead of this enthusiasm for dismissing something as gold-plating. It might have been a bit more open to have said, “Yes, we have made a decision not to go for the safest option, the one that would reduce the number of fatalities, serious and slight injuries. We have decided to go for the option that does not make it compulsory but which we recognise might not achieve the same reduction in fatalities and injuries to young children”. As that is my understanding, I think it would have been better if it had been put in that way rather than this enthusiasm for using the word “gold-plating”.

I also notice that the option which was looked at was the one that would:

“Require all new child seats sold from the date of implementation (early 2015) to be of Regulation 129 standard”.

If I have understood this impact assessment correctly, it estimates that, without it being a requirement, the take-up of the enhanced car seats will still be between 70% and 100% by 2020, with what is described as a “best uptake of 85%”. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that that is the case. If it is expected that there will nevertheless still be a high uptake of child restraints that conform to the higher standard set by UN-ECE Regulation 129 over a period of five years, why was it not considered that the second option—a requirement that all new child seats sold from the date of implementation are to be of regulation 129 standard—should be brought into force in two, three, four or five years’ time? At least we would then have had a guarantee that it was going to come in.

I am sure the Minister will correct me if I am wrong but, as I understand it, under these regulations there is no date when it will actually become the required standard. If we are expecting such a high uptake of the new, higher-standard child restraint by 2020, what is the objection to saying to what would appear to be the relatively low percentage that would not conform to the higher standard that, by that time, you will have to conform to the higher standard? I do not understand why that has not been incorporated into the regulations. I can appreciate why the regulations do not require everyone to conform from early 2015 but, bearing in mind the high uptake that is expected, I do not understand why there is nothing in the order to say that from a certain date—two, three, four, five years’ ahead—it will become the required standard.

Motor Vehicles (Wearing of Seat Belts) (Amendment) Regulations 2015

Debate between Viscount Simon and Lord Rosser

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Grand Committee

[Viscount Simon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister in his opening remarks has touched considerably on what I wanted to ask him. He mentioned road safety groups. I simply want to ask whether those groups include representatives from St John Ambulance and other charitable organisations. Will they covered by these regulations?

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for explaining the purpose of and reasoning behind this order, which we support. As the noble Lord said, the regulations exempt persons riding in an ambulance from the requirement to wear a seat belt while providing emergency medical attention or treatment to a patient for whom such treatment cannot be delayed. Indeed, one assumes that in reality ambulance personnel have been ignoring the existing regulation in these circumstances since, I am sure, they put the welfare and indeed the survival of their patients ahead of abiding by seat belt regulations—and ahead of their own personal safety. Not being in a position where seat belts can be worn places the safety of ambulance personnel in jeopardy if the ambulance itself is involved in a road accident or incident either directly or indirectly. I assume that the purpose of the order is to regularise a situation that I imagine has existed on almost a daily basis.

I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm—I am sure that the answer will be “yes”, given what is set out in the Explanatory Memorandum to the regulations—that this measure has also received the support of the trade unions which represent ambulance personnel.

Perhaps I may also take what is to an extent a liberty by raising another point. I hasten to say that I do not expect the Minister to respond to it today since I accept that, while it relates to an aspect of wearing seat belts, it is not one that even I could argue is covered by these regulations. It would be helpful if the Minister could let me know in due course either what decision the Government have made, or when they expect to make a decision, following a consultation in 2011 on the implementation and method of enforcement of the 2003 EU directive requiring children aged three and up to 14 travelling in a coach to wear seat belts. As I say, I appreciate that I am taking a bit of a liberty in raising this issue now, but if the Minister is subsequently able to give me the answer, I shall be extremely grateful to him. Again, we support the order before the Committee.