Policing and Crime Bill

Debate between Viscount Simon and Lord Paddick

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 7th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick]

My Lords, in response to similar amendments in Committee, the Minister pointed out that reduced drink-drive limits in other countries did not necessarily result in fewer drink-drive-related deaths. She went on to highlight the importance of penalties, which are harsh in the UK: enforcement, although this is likely to be less with the cuts in recent years to roads policing in the light of cuts to police budgets generally; and hard-hitting campaigns that have successfully made drink-driving socially unacceptable in a way that it is not in other countries. But these are not alternatives to a reduction in the drink-drive limit; they would still apply.

Reducing the opportunities to evade prosecution and carrying out medical tests to ensure that offenders are not dependent on alcohol before they get their licences back are also very good steps. However, the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, made some very powerful points. She said that the number of drink-drive-related deaths had been static over recent years. My understanding is that the overall number of deaths on the roads has been reducing over the years because of improved safety. If it is true that the number of drink-drive related deaths is not reducing in line with that, it is an increasing problem, not a static one.

A wide range of organisations—motoring organisations, the police and others—supports a reduction in drink-drive limits. Although I found the arguments around the different limits in Scotland and in England and Wales a little complex—rather like a whodunit—clearly there is an anomaly there. The plain and simple issue is that current drink-drive limits enable people to take the risk of having a drink and driving. The proposed limits would deter people from drinking anything before they got into a car. Surely that would be safer. On balance, and having discussed this with our transport spokesperson, we support the amendments.

[Viscount Simon (Lab)]

My Lords, I will mention just a couple of things. First, in the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act all those years ago I got an amendment through on the evidence on roadside breath-testing, which will get the readings there and then, rather than two hours or so later at the police station. I would love to see this kit eventually approved by the Home Office. It has not been approved yet. Secondly, we are talking about having a glass of wine or whatever. I am teetotal so I would not have the slightest idea but I have been told that the glasses of wine in most restaurants and pubs have got bigger. Therefore, the chance of going above the limit has also increased.

Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Codes of Practice) (Revision of Code E) Order 2015

Debate between Viscount Simon and Lord Paddick

Monday 7th December 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, having been a police officer for more than 30 years, I feel qualified to speak on this subject. This is a welcome approach that will cut down on unnecessary bureaucracy. It seems counterproductive that we allow police to dispose of minor offences on the street but PACE, in its previous incarnation, required an audio recording of the interview, which is clearly not practical in many cases—although, with the increasing use of body-worn cameras by police officers, this may become less of a problem.

As for possession of cannabis, having been instrumental in the move towards street disposal of that offence, I cannot help but be supportive. My only concern is about theft offences. This offence involves dishonesty and, therefore, there are implications for the future of the individual. Because the individual is perhaps dealt with informally—it will be a formal disposal but on the street—additional safeguards may be necessary. But again, on low-level criminal damage, I do not have too many concerns. I also appreciate that there are safeguards, for example, in the case of vulnerable people, where an appropriate adult would need to be present and these changes would not apply. Generally, we support these changes.

[Viscount Simon (Lab)]

My Lords, first, would I be right in thinking that the only way one can check the records for a first-time offence is via the police radio? Secondly, on cannabis, how will the police establish whether it is first-time use? Otherwise, I support this order.