Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Codes of Practice) (Revision of Codes C, D and H) Order 2016

Viscount Simon Excerpts

Thursday 19th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, may I say how much I support the revision of the code of practice? I cannot emphasise enough how welcome these codes were when they were introduced in 1984. Before that, a great deal of time was taken up in the criminal courts with what was called the voir dire—a trial within a trial—to determine the admissibility of police interviews and alleged confessions, and the content of what was said.

I recall, some years after these codes had come into practice and were commonplace in this country, being in Hong Kong, where a confession was produced. I was told by my client that in order to sign it, the interviewing officer had stamped on his hand. I said, “Tell me another one”, and he then pointed to his signature at the beginning of the statement, where he had simply signed in characters, and the very squiggly, spidery signature that appeared at the end. There was a great deal of truth in what he had said, perhaps assisted by the fact that the interviewing officer had committed suicide between taking the statement and the actual trial.

Noble Lords can see that what goes on in the police station is extremely important. The codes of practice that were introduced were an excellent way of making sure there was fairness all round. I am grateful to the Government for continuing to update them and to look at how technology can help protect both the suspect and, of course, the interviewing police officers, against whom allegations of all sorts were made in the past. We very much welcome this.

[Viscount Simon (Lab)]

My Lords, I have just one brief question. Suspects under the age of 18 are to be looked after by the local authority. What security measures will be taken to ensure that they are safe and do not get away?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank noble Lords for their questions. Perhaps I can deal with the question of the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, first while it is fresh in my mind. The usual safeguards for young children in detention would be employed to ensure that a young person did not get away.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked about the use of live link and whether it would become the norm or used only on limited occasions. The police will use the live-link technology only in certain circumstances judged on a case-by-case basis, taking account of the representation given to the suspect by an appropriate adult and a solicitor. The noble Lord also asked whether the facility would be used only in relation to suspects. I can answer in the affirmative yes, not for the witnesses. He asked about safeguards being ensured and the role of the solicitor. Solicitors must be asked if they wish to make representations to be considered by the police. If there is any doubt the inspector must authorise.

If the noble Lord would like me to go through the conditions, I will do so. Before interview, the suspect’s solicitor, where legal advice is requested, and an appropriate adult for any juvenile or vulnerable adult, must be asked about their views on live-link interpretation. The representations for the interpreter to be present may be made at any time before and during the interview. If there is any doubt about the suspect’s ability to adequately cope with the live-link arrangements during the interview, the physical presence of the interpreter will be required, unless an inspector, having considered the circumstances—in particular, the availability of an interpreter, representations from the suspect’s solicitor, the appropriate adult’s impact on the suspect and the evidential implications—authorises live-link interpretation.

High Speed Rail (London-West Midlands) Bill

Viscount Simon Excerpts

Thursday 14th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Simon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am certain that no one doubts that the United Kingdom and the future economy need a more efficient and speedy transport structure, whether it be our roads, our airports or our railways. We have heard some very interesting speeches today, including the excellent maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Mair.

The question we have to address is whether HS2 is the correct solution to our railway problems. Is it financially viable and will it deliver the Chancellor’s dream of growing his much-vaunted northern powerhouse? The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, in his fantastic speech, mentioned that the Bill is 25,000 pages long. I suspect that I am not alone in admitting that I have not read it.

There may well be Members here today who have studied logic. That particular skill seems to have deserted the champions of HS2, and some noble Lords have raised some concerns today, including my noble friend Lord Berkeley, who is an expert in these matters.

Many people to whom I have spoken have formed the extremely logical conclusion that this faster rail link will inevitably carry certain people to their businesses in a very timely fashion. But will it carry business people from London to the north? I suggest exactly the opposite will happen. There will be a rush of businessmen and women from the north going to the City of London, where they will invest, do deals and then go back to Birmingham for supper. Who benefits from this? London. The line will certainly be used by many passengers.

I do not understand why little consideration has been given to an alternative scheme that has been developed, I am told, by two eminent railway engineers with decades of service between them. The facts and figures provided by HSUK, to which the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, referred, indicate a lower cost on a like-for-like basis. It avoids the Chilterns in its entirety and has a vastly reduced overall environmental impact, and it would also have a far greater effect in reducing transport CO₂ emissions.

Many people believe that there has been a failure in due process in arriving at the present proposals for high-speed rail in Great Britain. This has resulted in the HS2 scheme apparently failing every test of network performance. However, the Bill cannot be changed to take advantage of the major changes—such a pity.

These proposals were virtually nodded through by all Members involved immediately before the Easter recess, which, to me, is unbelievable considering the obscene costs involved during a period of austerity, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, and the misery for thousands of citizens from Camden to the Chilterns. It is imperative that we consider what we are putting in place for the future, including modernising parts of the country, which some noble Lords have mentioned. This is not like a country across the water, where trains travel long distances at fast speed. This is the United Kingdom—totally different.

Driving Instructors (Registration) Bill

Viscount Simon Excerpts

Friday 11th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Simon (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Earl has given us an excellent and detailed background to his Bill. I will therefore speak in general terms. I should declare my numerous interests, which are in the register.

The process of qualifying as an ADI is costly, difficult and time-consuming and sometimes those doing so are taking a leap into the unknown in respect of future employment. However, if an ADI fails to attend a check test or, for whatever reason, temporarily suspends their work, that person is removed from the register. Currently, in order to re-enter the profession, the applicant is required to repeat the whole process which, as before, can be costly, time-consuming and, in the case of temporary suspension, unjustified.

This Bill is very sensible in that it can provide a fast track for re-entry to the profession in agreed circumstances, as the noble Earl indicated. People would still need to have their competence checked by the appropriate person, but there would be no need to undergo the whole process of re-qualification within a four-year period rather than the current 12 months following the ADI being off register.

Of course, if somebody is off the register for more than four years, it makes complete sense for them to become up to date with changes that may have taken place during that period. This Bill makes so much sense. It simplifies all the matters, and I thoroughly approve of it.

Identity Documentation

Viscount Simon Excerpts

Thursday 14th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Simon (Lab)]

My Lords, a few days ago I listened to an interesting item that is a matter of concern to many people. So far in this debate, noble Lords have covered a number of subjects concerning identity cards. I will address just one problem. If somebody wishes to work with children or if they want to foster or adopt a child, there is a strict process that must to be completed, with a DBS certificate being issued. This involves the Disclosure and Barring Service—the DBS—which was previously the Criminal Records Bureau. A criminal record check is required for types of work known as “regulated activity with children”—and this covers people who do not even meet children frequently.

Having read a little about this matter, I have to say that I am astonished at the number of acts which are covered. An incredibly large number of people apply for a job for which the employer is required to request a DBS check and has to wait for a certificate. This is sent to the applicant, and the employer has to ask for visual confirmation of approval. The time it takes to complete the necessary check depends on the level of the check, the details provided by the applicant wanting to work with children and, finally, which police forces need to be involved in the check. Generally, it takes about eight weeks to get a DBS check. It must be remembered that a lot of people wanting to work with children are unemployed and might want to work as soon as possible.

However—this is why I am raising the matter—the current process that is meant to take eight weeks rarely achieves that, and there are those who are still waiting after three or four months. Why? The programme indicated that this delay was due to the number of applicants and to the police force involved, and it was said that there were approximately 120,000 people waiting in the Metropolitan Police area—which gives an idea of the number of people who want to work with children.

There has to be something that will overcome this problem. How about a special identification card for everybody to carry which can be updated when necessary, specifically for those who want to work with children? Would this not be an easy and cheap way out of these difficulties? It would be much cheaper than the current system.

Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Codes of Practice) (Revision of Code E) Order 2015

Viscount Simon Excerpts

Monday 7th December 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, having been a police officer for more than 30 years, I feel qualified to speak on this subject. This is a welcome approach that will cut down on unnecessary bureaucracy. It seems counterproductive that we allow police to dispose of minor offences on the street but PACE, in its previous incarnation, required an audio recording of the interview, which is clearly not practical in many cases—although, with the increasing use of body-worn cameras by police officers, this may become less of a problem.

As for possession of cannabis, having been instrumental in the move towards street disposal of that offence, I cannot help but be supportive. My only concern is about theft offences. This offence involves dishonesty and, therefore, there are implications for the future of the individual. Because the individual is perhaps dealt with informally—it will be a formal disposal but on the street—additional safeguards may be necessary. But again, on low-level criminal damage, I do not have too many concerns. I also appreciate that there are safeguards, for example, in the case of vulnerable people, where an appropriate adult would need to be present and these changes would not apply. Generally, we support these changes.

[Viscount Simon (Lab)]

My Lords, first, would I be right in thinking that the only way one can check the records for a first-time offence is via the police radio? Secondly, on cannabis, how will the police establish whether it is first-time use? Otherwise, I support this order.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, this order, which the Opposition support, makes important changes by excluding four offences from the code, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Bates, in his opening remarks. It will allow officers to deal with the offence at the scene of the crime rather than by bringing people to the station, if the officer deems that to be the correct course of action. Will the noble Lord confirm whether this has been piloted? If so, why have we not waited until we have the results of those pilots? I would be interested to find out about that.

Will the Minister tell us a bit more about why these four offences were selected and which offences were not selected? I know the Minister said there was a review, but it would be interesting to know the thinking on that.

Finally, will the Minister comment on the pilot scheme on body-worn cameras which was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick? In future, concerns about the lack of a definitive record may be resolved by the record on camera at the scene of the offence. However, we fully support the order.

Queen’s Speech

Viscount Simon Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Simon (Lab)]

My Lords, what a fascinating speech. The proposals put forward in the gracious Speech are an important stepping-stone towards strengthening policing in England and Wales, but some issues remain. I declare my interests, which are in the register.

The line between extremist views and freedom of speech is a difficult one, particularly for a police service whose job is to protect both freedom of speech and the public from violent extremism. The Government need to think very carefully about how the legislation in the newly proposed extremism Bill will be introduced and defined, as it is important that it is enforceable by officers on the ground. Currently, for the underfunded and understrength force, it is very unclear how this will happen.

The police service, although severely stretched, still picks up where other services cannot. Every year, under the Mental Health Act 1983, approximately 11,000 people are taken to a police station as a “place of safety”, when mental health emergencies should be handled by mental health professionals, not by police officers, who do not have the relevant training, equipment or premises. Using police officers in place of mental health professionals not only puts the people going through mental health crises at risk but puts further pressure on the struggling police service.

The Government’s commitment to introduce access and waiting time standards for mental health services is a step in the right direction to provide support for the vulnerable people when they need it most. This will allow police officers to do what they are trained to do, which is to protect the public. Mental health issues must—I repeat, must—be dealt with by health agencies, not by police officers.

Roads policing is an essential part of the police service. Recent changes to legislation to introduce roadside drugs tests will help to reduce road injuries and casualties, but the effectiveness of the new sanctions greatly depends on whether forces have the capacity, funds and adequate police officer numbers to enforce them. The severe reduction of traffic officers across the country has had dramatic consequences: we are now seeing more deaths and serious injuries on the roads. The Government need to address these issues as a priority.

To achieve the financial pressures imposed by the Government, chief constables have had to look at the overall cost of running road policing units, where the cars and equipment are expensive. Reducing deaths on the roads by increasing trained traffic officers would reduce overall costs. Each road death currently costs approximately £1.75 million. It is, perhaps, worth mentioning that the total number of traffic officers fell from 5,635 in 2010 to 4,356 in 2014, with Devon and Cornwall in those years experiencing a reduction from 239 to 57, to give just one specific example.

What could be the priorities to reduce road deaths and injuries on our roads? Graduated driving licences, telematics and young driver restrictions would be a start. What about an increase in penalty points for using a mobile phone while driving, or setting a maximum noise level in a car so that emergency vehicles can be heard? We then come to lowering the blood alcohol level for drink drivers in line with Scotland and the wider European Union.

Many years ago, I had an amendment agreed to the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act to enable drivers to be breathalysed at the roadside, with the results obtained being totally accurate. These kits are still not available and have not, I believe, been type approved. Why not, after all these years?

There is some good news for next year. A new national diagnostic IT system is being formed with the intention of reducing the demand on the police to attend some collisions, and reducing the pressure on the remaining front counters. I am only sorry that I am speaking today and not after watching the ITV television programme on Thursday entitled “Coping without Cops”.

Police: Reduction in Numbers

Viscount Simon Excerpts

Thursday 26th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I can think of some very good examples. In fact, some former colleagues of the noble Baroness have been instrumental in driving forward this type of co-operation. I am thinking particularly of West Mercia and Warwickshire where there is a much closer relationship because of the public visibility of a police and crime commissioner providing that connection with the community that we talked about earlier.

[Viscount Simon (Lab)]

My Lords, I was interested to hear about the experiences in Northern Ireland with fatalities on the roads. A reduction in roads policing officers has been experienced in most forces, and two forces have reduced their traffic officers by more than 70%. The Minister gave us figures for road deaths, but in fact the most recent figures have shown an increase. The total cost of a fatality is more than £1.75 million. Given that figure, is it worth reducing the number of police officers?

[Lord Bates]

I think that that is right—and if I misheard the noble Viscount and he was asking about fatalities in Northern Ireland, I will get the figures broken down specifically for him. On the particular point that he raised, this is where greater use of technology and surveillance cameras on our motorways and road networks has helped to target resources better on reducing deaths and accidents on our roads.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Viscount Simon Excerpts

Monday 28th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Simon]

My Lords, I intend to speak fairly briefly on a few very specific items contained in this Bill.

Clause 26 and Schedule 14 propose that some of the specialist work carried out by the police and customs be extended to immigration officers, some of whom will be allowed to approve specified applications to carry out searches, detention and powers of seizure. There are concerns that giving even greater police-like powers to immigration personnel is not matched by any training or accountability requirements. It is proposed that by conferring the powers of a constable on National Crime Agency officers there needs to be an assurance by the Government that these people are fully attested officers. With an Administration seemingly intent on using private contractors, such a requirement is very important.

During the debate on the gracious Speech, I raised some practical issues relating to Clause 27 where a new section is to be inserted into the Road Traffic Act 1988 relating to driving while under the effect of specified drugs. Section 4(5) of that Act already covers drug-driving but the Government claim that enforcement is problematical. The field impairment test exists as do forensic medical examiners but the combination does not always seem to work satisfactorily.

It is the view of the Police Federation of England and Wales—I am an honorary member of the roads policing central committee—that legislation needs to target the habitual illegal drug user who is a danger to himself or herself and to the public while driving under the influence of drugs and that the legislation is easily enforceable through the correct use of technologies.

I also drew attention to the swipe testing kit for drugs which is being used very effectively in some other countries, and in particular to the 34 prosecutions for driving under the influence of drugs in this country in 2010 while there were 34,000 prosecutions in Germany in the same period using this equipment.

The Government are proposing that, in some cases, a zero-tolerance approach to driving under the effect of drugs will be imposed. Bearing in mind that there is then no need to prove intention or negligence, it is, to my mind, unwise to use this approach to catch drivers. The levels at which drugs are considered to cause impairment in driving will have to be established very, very carefully.

The proposed new offence negates the need to prove impairment—something which I consider to be very relevant—but will be based on prescribed limits where a drug has been taken resulting from a doctor’s examination. With this in mind, is it possible that a GP could be taken to court as the originator of prescribing drugs which might affect driving? Or will driving be banned when certain drugs are prescribed but which, in practical terms, only affect driving above certain levels? And, of course, the effect of drugs can vary from one person to the next. This area will need to be looked at extremely carefully as noble Lords have already said.

I read in a newspaper that Scotland intends to reduce the drink-drive limit from 80 mg to 50 mg. It really is such a pity that the Government have not taken a similar no-tolerance approach. We all know of the increased impairment when a higher reading is used and the resultant increase in road deaths and injuries. I just wonder if the Scottish drivers will flee across the border if they see a police car when they know that they would not pass the lower limit. Expanding on this concern, I wonder how the DVLA will handle endorsements or disqualifications emanating from Scotland both in regard to permission to drive and to valid insurance in England and Wales. The opportunity of using this Bill to bring us into line with the greater majority of the European countries would be welcomed. And perhaps it is time for us to follow those wise Scots.

Legislation needs to result in easily enforceable levels being found using correct technologies rather than legally medicated members of the public, driving safely, being convicted. This, of course, is easier said than done but having a fairly narrow list of controlled drugs which cause most concern would be a good starting point.

Police: Vehicles

Viscount Simon Excerpts

Wednesday 14th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

Yet again, the noble Lord is heading down the road of protectionism, which I do not believe is the right answer. The answer that I gave to my noble friend Lady O’Cathain about the success of Nissan addresses that point exactly. Why have we attracted so much inward investment? It is because we have the right conditions to do so. The Nissan announcement is one that even the noble Lord should welcome.

[Viscount Simon]

Is the noble Lord aware that ACPO is reviewing the use of police vehicles with a view to standardisation, which will result in reducing the cost of those vehicles?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, again, I answered that point earlier when I dealt with the co-ordination that we have brought to this matter through the national framework. That is why we are looking to make savings of the order of £350 million a year, compared to what used to happen under the previous Government on proper co-ordination of all police procurement.

Protection of Freedoms Bill

Viscount Simon Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, just to make sure that I get things right, I should make it clear that it is my understanding from the intervention from the Deputy Chairman of Committees that we are dealing with Amendments 115 and 120 to 128, but not with those in the name of my noble friend Lord Phillips, which start at Amendment 116, those being a separate group.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

Amendment 122 is in the second group.

[Lord Henley]

I take that correction. I do not know how long we will spend finishing off this amendment, but perhaps this one or the next should be the last one that we deal with today, because I think we have made pretty good progress. We have will have a relatively short list of amendments to discuss for the next day and will have no problem finishing off Committee stage when we return after Christmas.

I am grateful to both my noble friends Lady Miller and Lord Selsdon for setting out their arguments in support of these amendments and I shall briefly deal with them. I start with Amendment 115 and the amendments associated with it—Amendments 120, 121, 123, 125 and 127—which leave out “relevant” or “relevant person”. We are introducing a judicial approval mechanism to restore public confidence in local authorities’ use of covert techniques. Local authorities will no longer be able to self-authorise or to use directed surveillance in trivial cases, thereby further safeguarding personal privacy. Such public concern does not exist for the use of covert techniques in cases of serious crime or national security. In a judicial review it will be for the magistrate to approve the authorisation for local authorities to use such techniques only where he or she believes that use of the technique would be both necessary and proportionate.

Imposing judicial approval on all public authorities, law enforcement and intelligence agencies, which the amendment of my noble friend Lady Miller seeks to do, could seriously impair the operational effectiveness of such organisations. Having to seek a magistrate’s approval may, given the extent to which such techniques are used, result in operational delay, which could have grave consequences. Furthermore, it is wholly inappropriate for the sensitive nature of these cases to be disposed to a local magistrate.

RIPA authorisations for the most sensitive techniques, such as intrusive surveillance and interception, which may be used only by law enforcement and intelligence agencies, are already pre-approved by a surveillance commissioner or the Secretary of State. The Government will continue to keep the use of RIPA under review and respond in the most appropriate way if there is evidence of misuse. If in the future there is a compelling case for extending the requirement for prior judicial authorisation for certain other public authorities, these clauses confer an order-making power to enable this to happen.

On the second part of Amendment 128, my noble friend Lady Miller suggested that there should be a further review by an independent reviewer. I appreciate that the concern behind the amendment is that the Act is now some 10 years old and that the pace of technological development during this time has been unparalleled, a point to which my noble friend Lord Selsdon referred. I agree that how this legislation is performing and keeping pace with these developments is something on which we would naturally all seek assurance.

At its heart, RIPA is human rights legislation; it contains human rights safeguards to ensure that it carries on working as Parliament intended. Those safeguards include the appointment of independent bodies to oversee, inspect and redress wrongs. As the Committee will be aware, there are three independent commissioners—all of whom have held some of the highest judicial offices in the land—to examine various aspects of how RIPA is working and to publish their findings. Their inspection teams visit public authorities using RIPA powers and provide valuable advice on interpreting the law correctly, and surveillance commissioners authorise some of its more invasive techniques. In addition, those commissioners produce annual reports on their findings which are laid before Parliament each year. So we already have an effective mechanism for ongoing scrutiny and reporting the findings to Parliament. The commissioners will continue to inspect local authorities and will report on how the judicial approval provisions are working in practice.

As to the wider question of changing the law to permit intercept material to be used evidentially—which is currently prohibited by Section 17 of RIPA—that is already being independently reviewed by Sir John Chilcot, who is leading a cross-party group of privy counsellors to examine how a model to permit this could work in practice. The Government will bring the subject before Parliament again once the cross-party committee has finished taking evidence. When it does so is a matter over which I have no control, but I look forward to being able to debate these matters in due course.