Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Viscount Camrose and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Committee stage
Monday 16th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and his string of amendments. He made the case clearly: it is simply about access, the right to redress and a clear pathway to that redress, a more efficient process and clarity and consistency across this part of our data landscape. There is precious little point in having obscure remedies or rights—or even, in some cases, as we have discussed in our debates on previous groups, no right or obvious pathways to redress. I believe that this suite of amendments addresses that issue. Again, I full-throatedly support them.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I address the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. These proposals aim to transfer jurisdiction from courts to tribunals; to establish a new right of appeal against decisions made by the Information Commissioner; and to grant the Lord Chancellor authority to implement tribunal procedure rules. I understand and recognise the noble Lord’s intent here, of course, but I have reservations about these amendments and urge caution in accepting them.

The suggestion to transfer jurisdiction from courts to tribunals raises substantial concerns. Courts have a long-standing authority and expertise in adjudicating complex legal matters, including data protection cases. By removing these disputes from the purview of the courts, the risk is that we undermine the depth and breadth of legal oversight required in such critical areas. Tribunals, while valuable for specialised and expedited decisions, may not provide the same level of rigorous legal analysis.

Cases such as those cited by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones—Killock and another v the Information Commissioner and Delo v the Information Commissioner—demonstrate to me the intricate interplay between data protection, administrative discretion and broader legal principles. It is questionable whether tribunals, operating under less formal procedures, can consistently handle such complexities without diminishing the quality of justice. Further, I am not sure that the claim that this transfer will streamline the system and reduce burdens on the courts is fully persuasive. Shifting cases to tribunals does not eliminate complexity; it merely reallocates it, potentially at the expense of the detailed scrutiny that these cases demand.

I turn to the right of appeal against the commissioner’s decisions. Although the introduction of a right of appeal against these decisions may seem like a safeguard, it risks creating unnecessary layers of litigation. The ICO already operates within a robust framework of accountability, including judicial review for cases of legal error or improper exercise of discretion. Adding a formal right of appeal risks encouraging vexatious challenges, overwhelming the tribunal system and diverting resources from addressing genuine grievances.

I think we in my party understand the importance of regulatory accountability. However, creating additional mechanisms should not come at the expense of efficiency and proportionality. The existing legal remedies are designed to strike an appropriate balance, and further appeals risk creating a chilling effect on the ICO’s ability to act decisively in protecting data rights.

On tribunal procedure rules and centralised authority, the proposed amendment granting the Lord Chancellor authority to set tribunal procedure rules bypasses the Tribunal Procedure Committee, an independent body designed to ensure that procedural changes are developed with judicial oversight. This move raises concerns about the concentration of power and the erosion of established checks and balances. I am concerned that this is a case of expediency overriding the principles of good governance. While I acknowledge that consultation with the judiciary is included in the amendment, it is not a sufficient substitute for the independent deliberative processes currently in place. The amendment risks undermining the independence of our legal institutions and therefore I have concerns about it.

These amendments overall, while presented as technical fixes, and certainly I recognise the problem and the intent, would have far-reaching consequences for our data protection framework. The vision of my party for governance is one that prioritises stability, legal certainty and the preservation of integrity. We must avoid reforms that, whatever their intent, introduce confusion or inefficiency or undermine public trust in our system. Data protection is, needless to say, a cornerstone of our modern economy and individual rights. As such, any changes to its governance must be approached with the utmost care.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that the crux of this machinery is solely automated decision-making as a binary thing—it is or it is not—and, therefore, that the absolute key to it is making sure that the humans involved are suitably qualified and finding some way to do so, whether by writing a definition or publishing guidelines?

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

On the question of qualification, the Minister may wish to reflect on the broad discussions we have had in the past around certification and the role it may play. I gently her take her back to what she said on Amendment 123A about notification. Does she see notification as the same as a personalised response to an individual?

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Viscount Camrose and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I support these amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Clement-Jones. It is a pleasure to follow the second ex-Health Minister this afternoon. In many ways, the arguments are just the same for health data as they are for all data. It is just that, understandably, it is at the sharpest end of this debate. Probably the most important point for everybody to realise, although it is espoused so often, is that there is no such thing as NHS data. It is a collection of the data of every citizen in this country, and it matters. Public trust matters significantly for all data but for health data in particular, because it goes so close to our identity—our very being.

Yet we know how to do public trust in this country. We know how to engage and have had significant success in public engagement decades ago. What we could do now with human-led technology-supported public engagement could be on such a positive and transformational scale. But, so far, there has been so little on this front. Let us not talk of NHS data; let us always come back to the fundamental principle encapsulated in this group of amendments and across so many of our discussions on the Bill. Does the Minister agree that it is about not NHS data but our data—our decisions—and, through that, if we get it right, our human-led digital futures?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Many thanks to all noble Lords who have proposed and supported these amendments. I will speak to just a few of them.

Amendment 70 looks to mitigate the lowering of the consent threshold for scientific research. As I have set out on previous groups, I too have concerns about that consent threshold. However, for me the issue is more with the definition of scientific research than with the consent threshold, so I am not yet confident that the amendment is the right way to achieve those desirable aims.

Amendment 71 would require that no NHS personal data can be made available for scientific research without the explicit consent of the patient. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Clement-Jones, for raising this because it is such an important matter. While we will discuss this under other levels, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, points out, it is such an important thing and we need to get it right.

I regret to advise my noble friend Lord Holmes that I was going to start my next sentence with the words “Our NHS data”, but I will not. The data previously referred to is a very significant and globally unique national asset, comprising many decades of population-wide, cradle-to-grave medical data. No equivalent at anything like the same scale or richness exists anywhere, which makes it incredibly valuable. I thank my noble friend Lord Kamall for stressing this point with, as ever, the help of Jimi Hendrix.

However, that data is valuable only to the extent that it can be safely exploited for research and development purposes. The data can collectively help us develop new medicines or improve the administration and productivity of the NHS, but we need to allow it to do so properly. I am concerned that this amendment, if enacted, would create too high an operational and administrative barrier to the safe exploitation of this data. I have no interest in compromising on the safety, but we have to find a more efficient and effective way of doing it.

Amendments 79, 81 and 131 all look to clarify that the definition of consent to be used is in line with the definition in Article 4.11 of the UK GDPR:

“‘consent’ of the data subject means any freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous indication of the data subject’s wishes by which he or she, by a statement or by a clear affirmative action, signifies agreement to the processing of personal data relating to him or her”.

This amendment would continue the use of a definition that is well understood. However, paragraph 3(a) of new Article 8A appears sufficient, in that the purpose for which a data subject consents is “specified, explicit and legitimate”.

Finally, with respect to Clause 77 stand part, I take the point and believe that we will be spending a lot of time on these matters going forward. But, on balance and for the time being, I feel that this clause needs to remain, as there must be clear rules on what information should be provided to data subjects. We should leave it in for now, although we will no doubt be looking to polish it considerably.

AI: Intellectual Property Rights

Debate between Viscount Camrose and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Thursday 9th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare my technology interests, as set out in the register, as an adviser to Boston Ltd.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

My Lords, this is a complex and challenging area. We strongly support AI innovation in the UK, but this cannot be at the expense of our world-leading creative industries. Our goal is that both sectors should be able to grow together in partnership. We are currently working with DCMS to develop a way forward on copyright and AI. We will engage closely with interested stakeholders as we develop our approach.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, our great UK creatives—musicians who make such sweet sounds where otherwise there may be silence; writers who fill the blank page with words of meaning that move us; our photographers; our visual artists—are a creative community contributing billions to the UK economy, growing at twice the rate of the UK economy. In the light of this, why are the Government content for their work, their IP and their copyright to be so disrespected and unprotected in the face of artificial intelligence?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for the important point he raises, particularly stressing the importance to the United Kingdom of the creative industry, which contributes 6% of our GVA every year. The Government are far from content with this position and share the frustrations and concerns of many across the sector in trying to find a way forward on the AI and copyright issue. As I say, it is challenging and deeply complex. No jurisdiction anywhere has identified a truly satisfactory solution to this issue, but we continue to work internationally and nationally to seek one.

Data Protection and Digital Information Bill

Debate between Viscount Camrose and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Committee stage
Wednesday 17th April 2024 Grand Committee

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Yes, indeed.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who participated in the excellent debate on this set of amendments. I also thank my noble friend the Minister for part of his response; he furiously agreed with at least a substantial part of my amendments, even though he may not have appreciated it at the time. I look forward to some fruitful and positive discussions on some of those elements between Committee and Report.

When a Bill passes into statute, a Minister and the Government may wish for a number of things in terms of how it is seen and described. One thing that I do not imagine is on the list is for it to be said that this statute generates significant gaps—those words were put perfectly by the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate. That it generates significant gaps is certainly the current position. I hope that we have conversations between Committee and Report to address at least some of those gaps and restate some of the positions that exist, before the Bill passes. That would be positive for individuals, citizens and the whole of the country. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment and look forward to those subsequent conversations.

Artificial Intelligence: Regulation

Debate between Viscount Camrose and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Tuesday 14th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question and recognise her concern. In order to be sure that I answer the question properly, I undertake to write to her with a full description of where we are and to meet her to discuss further.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my technology interests as in the register. Does my noble friend agree that it is at least worth regulating at this stage to require all those developing and training AI to publish all the data and all the IP they use to train that AI on, not least for the point around ensuring that all IP obligations are complied with? If this approach were taken, it would enable quite a distance to be travelled in terms of people being able to understand and gain explainability of how the AI is working.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I am pleased to tell my noble friend that, following a request from the Secretary of State, the safety policies of Amazon, Anthropic, Google DeepMind, Inflection, Meta, Microsoft, OpenAI and others have been published and will go into what we might call a race to the top—a competitive approach to boosting AI safety. As for enshrining those practices in regulation, that is something we continue to look at.

Artificial Intelligence: Regulation

Debate between Viscount Camrose and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Tuesday 24th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The Independent Review of the Future of Compute, which we accepted in its entirety, guided us to commit £900 million initially to buying compute. We have confirmed the purchase of an exascale system in Edinburgh as well as the UK’s soon-to-be most powerful supercomputer, in Bristol. There will be further announcements on this as part of the summit next week. The use of NHS data is subject to not only stringent contractual requirements but, already, stringent regulations about data privacy.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that we need far greater public engagement and public discourse around AI? Is he aware of the alignment assemblies used in Taiwan to such good effect? Will he consider taking a similar approach to such benefits in the UK?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I very much agree with my noble friend that we need maximum public acceptance of AI. However, that must be based on its trustworthiness. That is why we are pursuing, among other things, the global AI Safety Summit next week. I am not familiar with the Taiwanese approach but will look into it, and look forward to discussing it in due course.

Electronic Trade Documents Bill [HL]

Debate between Viscount Camrose and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Consideration of Commons amendments
Wednesday 19th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendments as set out. In doing so, I declare my technology interests as set out in the register.

This is the most important Bill that no one has ever heard of. It demonstrates what we can do when we combine the potential of these new technologies with the great good fortune of common law that we have in this country. I particularly support the comments made by the noble Lords, Lord Bassam and Lord Clement-Jones, about the Government’s plan for implementation. Although it is obviously critical that we get Royal Assent to this Bill as soon as possible, that is really where the work begins. As my noble friend the Minister knows, the Bill is rightly permissive in nature; it cannot be that, having done all the work through both Houses of Parliament, the Bill is then just left on the shelf. There needs to be an active plan for implementation, communicating to all the sectors and all the organisations, institutions and brilliant businesses in this space to seize the opportunity that comes from electronic trade documents. Does my noble friend the Minister agree— and will he fill out some more detail on what that implementation plan is?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank all three noble Lords who have commented. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and others have rightly raised the issue of how we implement the provision, and I could not agree more strongly that the prospect of such a brilliant and transformational Bill gathering dust on a shelf is rather depressing; it would be a great waste.

Industry is very keen to implement this itself, but it is on us to track how that is going and ensure that it does. On how exactly industry goes about it, I would like to write to noble Lords to explain that, because I very much recognise the importance of the question.

With respect to any actions envisaged in Clause 5, nothing is currently envisaged.

Data Protection

Debate between Viscount Camrose and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Thursday 23rd March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome my noble friend to the Front Bench and declare my technology interest. Does he agree that data is completely pervasive and all around us, that data literacy is critical and should be taught from the kindergarten right through life, and that data privacy is a key element of such data literacy teaching?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his question and pay tribute to his well-known expertise in the area. Public confidence in the huge mass of data and in the changing systems and tools that use it is absolutely key. This goes into AI, cybersecurity and a range of other areas. That is why education for public confidence will be a key part of the Government’s strategy.