House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Viscount Astor Excerpts

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord. I agree that I did that and I will try not to do so again.

My noble friend Lord Steel referred to the history of this matter. He said that this Bill had been under consideration since 2007. That is not quite correct. Different versions, slightly different versions or even identical versions of the Bill have indeed been considered but have not secured parliamentary approval. We are considering a new Bill in this Session, which I hope will end up in the same way as the previous ones.

My principal objection to the Motion is that it was tabled so late and that we therefore have a Marshalled List which is back to front. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend will not persist with his Motion.

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Steel says that he has withdrawn Clauses 1 to 9 but, of course, on the Order Paper they are there to be debated. Would not the proper way to proceed be for the noble Lord to take the Bill in the order that it is written and move that Clauses 1 to 9 not stand part of the Bill?

[Lord Wills]

My Lords, I understand the concerns that have been expressed already today about the new approach of the noble Lord, Lord Steel. However, like him, I think the time has come to get on with the Bill.

This was not always my position. When I was the Minister responsible for constitutional reform in the previous Government, that Government’s view—as I believe this Government’s view is today—was that the Bill is a distraction, perhaps even a deliberate distraction, from the main business of establishing a wholly or mainly elected House of Lords. I still want to see such radical reform but I fear that this Government’s approach to securing it has doomed its prospects for the foreseeable future. We should therefore get on with this worthwhile Bill.

I had hoped that the Government would have noticed that the most astute opponents of reform of this place—such as my noble friend Lord Grocott and many other noble Lords who are in their place today—have zeroed in on one particular issue as the justification for their opposition: that is, the relationship between the House of Commons and an elected House of Lords. As I have said many times, although I still want to see a wholly elected House of Lords, this is a legitimate concern. There is no question but that there are real issues here and the Government have refused to address them, waving them aside with some airy, unsubstantiated assertions and assumptions.

It is not inevitable that an elected House of Lords would lead to legislative gridlock but it needs further consideration. Unless the Government show more effort in addressing these concerns, I fear that the prospects for an elected Chamber are doomed—at least for this Parliament and probably well beyond. Therefore, I believe that we should go along with what the noble Lord, Lord Steel, is proposing today. We should address and embrace the more limited but none the less extremely worthwhile reforms embedded in this Bill and, in his words again, get on with it.