Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stella Creasy and Graham Stuart

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Graham Stuart]

As the hon. Member doubtless knows, we have conducted a consultation on the use of HVO in heating, and we are determined to ensure that we decarbonise heat in homes, including off-grid homes, in a way that is practical and aligned with minimising any negative impacts on those families.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

11. What steps her Department is taking to help energy-intensive industries decarbonise.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Stella Creasy and Graham Stuart

Committee stage
Tuesday 29th November 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Stella Creasy]

Perhaps, then, the Minister will publish and confirm for all of us who have been on the Committee—he is new to these debates, but I am afraid he is going to hear this concern repeated at length—what comes next. Without clarity over what comes next, it is difficult to be confident that the legislation will not be a destructive disaster. I see he is already enjoying the fact that he is on duty today.

Having this power only for revocation undermines other powers the Bill gives to Ministers, because it is a power both to ignore and to amend legislation. Taking back control and returning it to the back rooms to allow Ministers to write legislation and then simply put it before us in a “like it or lump it” proposal is not really taking back control.

I also venture to say that it is worth ensuring that we have this procedure for all forms of legislation that are affected by the Bill—not for some grand political design so we can have these wonderful debates, but because, as we have already seen with this Bill, not everything is going to be perfect. Departments make mistakes. Drafting can contain errors. I am reminded of the tale, which is completely true, of the Belgian legislature that managed to put a recipe for asparagus into Belgian law because it was cut and pasted into legislation by accident. That genuinely happened—I am sure the Minister will google it—in 2021.

Statutory instruments give us an opportunity to pick up drafting errors, as well as to hold Ministers to account, and to challenge and query legislation—for example, one of those so-called technical amendments, although we know the Bill represents not technical amendments, but, potentially, serious changes to rights, rules and regulations that people have relied on and recognised for generations. Having such a procedure would give us the chance to identify actions, and possibly to identify the asparagus.

If the Minister will not accept the amendment, he is saying two things: first, that taking back control is not about Parliament, but simply about the back rooms, and, secondly, that we never get things wrong. We have all met in life individuals, and perhaps even organisations, who say, “I never get things wrong,” and we know that that is the most worrying thing that anybody can say. Drafting errors are part and parcel of trying to get right even one or two pieces of legislation, but the Government, potentially, are setting us up to try to get 4,000 right to replace the laws they are deleting overnight.

Statutory instruments and the use of processes and amendments are an important part of the process of trying to ensure that that is done with the greatest possible skill. Removing those powers, or not clarifying that they are part of those processes, and giving Ministers the opportunity to decide whether they want to put themselves up for parliamentary scrutiny is like letting contestants in “The X Factor” avoid the judges’ houses stage. This all forms an important part of the process.

I have a horrible feeling that the Minister is not going accept the amendment, so in responding to the queries and questions we have raised, and in reflecting on why the amendment has been tabled, will he consider why—when we are discussing potentially significant and meaningful changes, and when we know he can only water down regulation because the Bill says that regulation can only be something that does not create a burden—he believes our constituents should be denied that representation and that voice in the process? That is what not including such a provision, or not having any form of it, means.

We saw that in the pandemic, when statutory instruments were not receiving appropriate scrutiny. In December 2020, a new set of covid restrictions that would have criminalised a child going to school in tier 4, despite schools remaining open, were implemented without any parliamentary scrutiny. In that case, due to the extraordinary public scrutiny these regulations faced, the issue was finally identified before the schools returned from the Christmas break for one day. Despite what they might think, however, it is not normal for commentators on Twitter to go through legislation at this level. Such errors are not minor—they are not just asparagus—but could have real life implications. They happen and they happen in this place, and not having proper scrutiny of SIs is the foundation of such errors.

I hope the Minister will do more than laugh at the asparagus. I hope he will act on these concerns and finally agree, if not to this amendment, to the tabling of the Government’s own amendment in the other place to ensure we finally take back some control. I say to my colleagues on the Government Back Benches that at some point, somebody will turn up in their constituency surgeries asking about the outcome and implication of this legislation, and they will have to say, “Well, I didn’t vote through any changes. I did not recognise the problems with the sunset. I was pretty confident about not knowing what laws this would affect and I did not even vote through any powers to be able to scrutinise what happens next. I just thought it would all be fine because this Government never make mistakes.” It simply will not wash.

[Graham Stuart]

I urge the Committee to reject amendments 88 and 89. Alongside the other powers in the Bill, the power to revoke or replace in clause 15 is an important, cross-cutting enabler of reform in the Bill. The power to update in clause 16 is an essential, ongoing power that will facilitate technical updates to retained EU law to take account of changes in technology or developments in scientific understanding. We recognise Parliament’s important role in scrutinising legislation, and the Bill ensures the appropriate scrutiny of all amendments and revocations of retained EU law using the powers in the Bill, including the powers provided for in clauses 15 and 16.

When discussing matters of scrutiny, I feel it is important to note the negligible scrutiny that most of the legislation we are discussing today—with such high-falutin’ language from the Opposition—received when it was created. When our democratically elected Government of the people of the United Kingdom take decisions, for which they are accountable at the ballot box, that is what I mean by taking back control. The people who are elected are responsible for what happens. That is what we have, and we are accountable at the ballot box. When they go to the ballot box now, British people will know who to hold responsible: us. It is not some pooled whatever system in Brussels; it is here in the United Kingdom. Power sits within this legislature, which is elected by the people of this country; it is not about precisely where the powers sit within our legislature. That is why it seems ironic that the Opposition parties had so little concern when powers were exercised on the other side of the channel, but apparently it is outrageous when those powers are exercised here by a democratically elected Government.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Debate between Stella Creasy and Graham Stuart

Tuesday 25th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Graham Stuart]

I am normally generous in giving way but—am I allowed to use the word “hogwash”?—I have heard so much hogwash from Opposition Members during the debate that I feel that it is necessary to put straight the misrepresentations and, frankly, scaremongering that they have engaged in.

It is my sincere hope that Opposition Members, including those in the hon. Gentleman’s party, focus on improving the lives of their constituents—not on rehashing the debates of 2016 or indeed 2014. In both cases, as I remember, he saw a referendum result that he did not like and that, therefore, he has refused to accept.

The UK Government remain committed to respecting the devolution settlements and the Sewel convention. There are provisions in the Bill that engage the legislative consent motion process. In the light of that, we have sought legislative consent for the provisions from the Senedd, the Scottish Parliament and, if possible, the Northern Ireland Assembly. To that end, the former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg), and his officials met frequently with their devolved counterparts to discuss the Bill’s scope and overall policy and to address any concerns that they may have had. We will continue to do so throughout the Bill’s passage through Parliament.

Several hon. Members raised specific concerns about the impact on Northern Ireland. I reassure the House that we will stand by our international commitments. We will preserve, restate or reform retained EU law to uphold those international obligations.

On sunsetting, some hon. Members, including the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), questioned the need for a sunset and, again, used fairly hyperbolic language about its impact. A sunset is the quickest and most effective way to reform retained EU law. It provides a straightforward way for outdated retained law to be repealed, and provides Whitehall—not always the swiftest moving bureaucracy, as he knows as well as I do—with an incentive to review the law on its books. I am pleased to say that that will not start after the passage of the Bill; it is already going on. The sunset will ensure that retained EU law does not become an immutable legal category—much as some EU aficionados among the Opposition, who lost in that referendum, may wish it to be. Instead, it incentivises the genuine reform of retained EU laws in a way that will work best for the United Kingdom.

This does not, however, mean that we are removing all retained EU law. Retained EU law that is deemed desirable by the Government or, indeed, the devolved authorities will be preserved using a power in the Bill beyond the sunset date as “assimilated law”. Moreover, as my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State said at the beginning of this debate, retained EU law that is primary legislation is not within scope of the sunset. I am therefore happy to confirm that the Civil Aviation Act 1982, which the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) was so concerned about— I do not know if she is in her seat—

[Stella Creasy]

I’m here!

[Graham Stuart]

Great. I am pleased to give the hon. Member the reassurance that that Act will not be in scope of the sunset.

It has also been suggested by the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde that sunsetting risks creating a legal vacuum. I do not believe this is the case. We are thoroughly reviewing all retained EU law, and establishing plans of action to ensure that the regulatory environment is substantially improved for the UK. The Bill and the use of its delegated powers will ensure there are no legal vacuums. Where it is desirable to do so, we will introduce new regulatory frameworks, and where the current laws and regulation work well, we will ensure their ongoing function. Finally, where it is necessary, we can utilise the extension power to allow more time for review.