Living Standards

Debate between Baroness Winterton of Doncaster and Steve Webb

Wednesday 30th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Steve Webb]

I am grateful, Mr Speaker.

The hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) spoke about how low interest rates benefit growth, which is crucial to the economy. The hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) raised the crucial issue of us having to pay our own way.

In opposition, one must do two things: yes, one must oppose the things that one is against, but one must also propose the things that one is in favour of. The Labour party failed to tell us where the £46 billion of spending cuts identified by the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions would come from. We heard speech after speech from Labour Members who were opposed to every single cut, but I heard no Labour Member say what they would cut. We heard that there should not be cuts for people out of work, or for people in work, that there should not be cuts to the public sector, or to the private sector. Where does all the money come from? Answer came there none.

[Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab)]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Main Question put accordingly.

Housing Benefit

Debate between Baroness Winterton of Doncaster and Steve Webb

Tuesday 9th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Steve Webb]

That is interesting. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman still supports the housing benefit cut taking away the £15 excess that the Labour party was going to introduce before the general election. If I remember rightly, Labour delayed that cut by one year—until after the election. Does the hon. Gentleman still support that Labour cut in housing benefit? I suspect not.

It is important that we have a discussion about fairness. My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) raised the situation of vulnerable people, particularly families with children. We are clear, first, that the impact of the changes as a whole is much narrower than has been assumed; secondly, that they will have an impact on rents, which will reduce the shortfalls and the number of people who will have to move; and thirdly, that there will be individual vulnerable cases. My hon. Friend is right to say that the position of families with children is very important. That is why we have trebled the money available to local authorities for discretionary housing payments specifically to help the most vulnerable. I recently had a conversation about a London authority that estimated that it would need to double its discretionary housing payments to cover these costs. We are trebling them, which we believe will enable local authorities to address the situation of the vulnerable households about which my hon. Friend is rightly concerned. I am grateful to him for raising that point.

The issue of fairness was raised by other Members too. My hon. Friends the Members for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) and for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) rightly pointed out that many low-paid workers cannot begin to afford the sorts of rents we are paying for housing benefit recipients. The Labour party used to agree with us on that. Since they became the Opposition, however, they have stopped agreeing with themselves. There is a fairness issue therefore, and as we bring down rents we will improve the fairness of the system.

One of the key issues is housing supply, which my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester and others also raised. The shadow Communities and Local Government Secretary, the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint), rightly raised that issue as well. However, the housing shortage was caused by the Labour party, which failed to build sufficient numbers of houses when in office. Many Labour Members said that they wished the situation was different. Well, they had 13 years to make it different. It is no good their wishing in opposition that houses had been built. As they held the levers of power and they did not pull them, they have to accept and live with the consequences. That is why I welcome what my ministerial colleagues at the Department for Communities and Local Government are doing to generate new social house building so that there will be diversity in the social housing sector, with the most subsidised rents and also near-market rents—80% of market rents—which will provide the resources needed for the significant increase of 150,000 new social homes. We desperately need that increase during the course of this Parliament.

Many Members raised issues about the disincentive effects of the housing benefit system, and I want to draw attention in particular to the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois). He made some powerful points about the fact that once people are in work and on housing benefit—I do accept that there are people in work and on housing benefit—the benefits systems then traps them, because if they want to do extra work they face very high marginal withdrawal rates. My hon. Friend highlighted the situation of people who are in work and do not want to do more hours because they will just find that their housing benefit is withdrawn. That is a crazy system: we, the taxpayers, pay £21 billion a year to subsidise rents, and put inflation into rents, and then we expect people to do low-paid work, and as soon as they do more work we claw the money back.

That is going to change. This Government are doing to do something about it. On Thursday my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will announce plans to take forward the proposition of a universal credit, whereby for the first time people will be guaranteed to be better off in work.

[Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab)]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Main Question accordingly put.

The House proceeded to a Division.