Environmental Protection and Green Growth

Debate between Lord Benyon and Huw Irranca-Davies

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

Before the election, the previous Chancellor announced that there would be a 50% cut in DEFRA’s capital spend. If Labour had won that election, it might have said that it would not cut flood protection, but in that case, what would it have cut? The hon. Member for Wakefield used the tired old argument that if we are to compare apples with apples, we must compare this Government with the last two years of the previous one. However, in this four years, there is an 8% cut compared with the previous four years. Bearing in mind the cuts across the Government and the appalling legacy that we were left, we have made flooding an absolute priority.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I thank the Minister for giving way so early on. Will he correct the supposition of the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) that the previous Government said anything about cutting flood defence spending? We did not say that. I shall put that on the record again. The Minister is right that we would have to find the cuts somewhere, but we never indicated that they would come from flood defence, because of the impact that would have on people’s businesses, homes and, potentially, lives.

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[Richard Benyon]

No, I will not give way.

We welcome the “Nature Check” report. It is very important that the organisations that took part in it have an edgy relationship with government. They frequently come to the Department and we work closely with them, and we will get green lights on the items as we progress. When that report was produced we had been in government for 15 months, dealing with abject failures created by the hon. Member for Ogmore and the Labour party in government, for which he has to take responsibility.

Let me deal with some of the excellent points made in the debate. The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) was missing the point. Just dealing with recycling does not deal with the whole waste problem; we need to look at this the whole way up the waste hierarchy. Unlike her Government, we will introduce proposals to ban wood from landfill next year.

I compliment my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) on a customary visionary speech. The leadership he is giving in his community on broadband, on local housing initiatives and on improving mobile coverage for his constituents is matched by this Government’s commitment to do the same for rural areas right across this country.

The hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) again showed that Labour Members just do not get the whole waste issue. I urge him to look at our waste review and see what we are achieving.

My hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) made an excellent speech in which she pointed out the failure of Labour councils. It is councils that deliver and it is coalition party councils that are achieving.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Benyon]

I shall not give way because the hon. Gentleman has had his time. [Interruption.]

When we consider flooding, the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal is in my head because it has proved that there are other ways—[Interruption.]

Public Forest Estate (England)

Debate between Lord Benyon and Huw Irranca-Davies

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

A second start. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

When I was in the privileged position of being the Minister for Marine and Natural Environment at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, one thing stood out about DEFRA: all the staff, agencies, green organisations and third sector organisations believed that they were on a mission in terms of the natural environment. We created national parks, protected wildlife, tackled wildlife crime, worked internationally to protect biodiversity and we increased access to the countryside and the quality of our uplands and seas. We also looked after the forests and promoted more woodland coverage, making steady strides to increase our poor showing among European nations.

I do not honestly believe that anybody from DEFRA, the Forestry Commission, Natural England or a host of other organisations, whose staff deeply care emotionally and intellectually about our woodlands and our natural environment, genuinely supports the policy. I do not believe that the Minister’s heart is in it; that might be the same for the Secretary of State, truth be told. I am sure that the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) does not support it.

Interestingly, however, the hon. Gentleman does not have a say. He has most of my old responsibilities as a Minister for the environment, but with one hugely noticeable exception: forestry. Why? He still covers, as I did, everything else in the natural environment, but forestry has disappeared from the environment Minister’s remit. That is no slur on his abilities, because he is no fool, but it is telling that forestry has gone from the environment Minister’s portfolio. The message is quite simple: the forests and woodland, from the inception of this Government, were downgraded in importance; they were no longer part of the natural environment brief.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I am very grateful to my predecessor for giving way. There is a very good reason why I do not have responsibility for forestry: I have some personal interests. I am happy to declare an interest now. My local village of Beenham had a small piece of Forestry Commission land in which my children and I bought small shares with the village as part of a community project. It is an absolute model, which we are trying to follow under the consultation before us.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

That is a very useful clarification, which I accept.

The former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), who is now shadow Leader of the House, was always clear about the Forestry Commission. He and generations of senior Ministers with the same responsibility held jealously to public ownership of the forest estate, because that was in the interests of the British people. Why? There are 13 million tonnes of carbon stored in the trees, 22 million tonnes in the ground and more than 100 million day visitors every year. Public access is protected under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, and the forest estate is the largest provider of green space around cities, including regeneration and growth areas such as Merseyside, Manchester and the Thames Gateway, with 3,500 hectares established over the 10 years to 2009 and more potential to expand that green infrastructure. Even then, only 10% of the population—notably, in disadvantaged areas—have access to any woodland within 500 metres of home. We are still way below the EU average.

Biodiversity

Debate between Lord Benyon and Huw Irranca-Davies

Thursday 16th September 2010 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your watchful eye this afternoon, Mr Crausby, in this important debate during the international year of biodiversity. It is a crucial time to debate this vital subject.

Progress has been made, in some areas, both in the UK and internationally, to reduce the rate of loss of biodiversity. For example, 94.3% of sites of special scientific interest in England are now in favourable or recovering condition, and we have seen increases in species such as otters, bitterns and stone curlews as a result of conservation action.

However, the overarching global picture is stark. We know that the global target to reduce the rate of loss of the world’s precious biodiversity by 2010 has not been met. Biodiversity continues to be lost at an accelerated rate as a result of human activity, and we know that that puts at risk the huge range of benefits that we get from the natural environment. That concerns us all, which is why my Department has made enhancing and protecting biodiversity one of its highest priorities.

Despite our growing knowledge of its value, the natural environment faces major challenges. For years, the economy and the natural environment have been pitted against each other as if they were competing choices, rather than being interdependent. Globally, it is estimated that the degradation of our planet’s ecosystems costs us some £42 billion each year—a figure that could rise to the equivalent of 7% of global gross domestic product by 2050. We are choosing to lose the valuable benefits of a healthy natural environment on a massive scale. A vibrant natural environment is not a luxury for the good times—it is a necessity for economic recovery and sustainable growth in the long term.

At the international level, we are committed to helping to develop a post-2010 framework on biodiversity that will deliver progress where it matters—on the ground. Next week, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will attend the United Nations General Assembly’s special session on biodiversity. This will be the first time that biodiversity has had a day dedicated to it at the General Assembly, and that day will be the final day of the launch of the review of the millennium development goals. It is a particularly important event and an opportunity for us to highlight the interrelationship between biodiversity, poverty and development.

In October, the Secretary of State will lead the UK delegation at the conference in Nagoya of the parties to the convention on biological diversity. We will seek to agree demanding new global targets for biodiversity, among other things. The meeting in Nagoya represents a critical moment in the history of the convention, and in human history. We cannot afford to miss that opportunity.

In England, we will set out our plans for responding to the new international framework, and for taking action on biodiversity, in a natural environment White Paper—the first since 1990. Through the White Paper process, we will, by spring next year, develop a bold and ambitious statement that will outline the Government’s priorities for the natural environment. We will do that by setting out a framework for practical action by the Government, communities, businesses and civil society organisations to deliver on our commitment. We want to develop new and imaginative solutions to tackling the problem of biodiversity loss, and to learn from the experience of others. We launched the discussion document on the White Paper on 26 July and are keen to receive views on it via our website or by post until 30 October.

Restoring and expanding priority habitats remains a major challenge if we are to tackle biodiversity loss successfully. We look forward to receiving soon Sir John Lawton’s report, “Making Space for Nature”, on the review of England’s wildlife sites and ecological networks. It will help to inform our thinking on the way forward.

We know from progress updates that the review is likely to conclude that we do not have a coherent and resilient ecological network in England, but that establishing one will help to reverse the declines in our biodiversity and deliver many other benefits to society such as soil protection, clean water, flood attenuation and carbon sequestration. We will respond to the report’s recommendations through the natural environment White Paper as part of our commitment to promoting green spaces and wildlife corridors to halt the loss of habitats.

Of course, we must also continue to protect the best of England’s wildlife areas. As set out in our departmental reform plan, we are dedicated to protecting the green belt, sites of special scientific interest and other environmentally protected areas.

The Government are also committed to protecting marine biodiversity, which is central to the UK’s economic and social well-being, as well as having intrinsic value. Our aim is to achieve clean, healthy, safe, productive and biologically diverse seas and oceans. To achieve that, we seek to address the decline in marine biodiversity and to allow recovery, where appropriate, by implementing a wide range of measures while managing competition between conservation and socio-economic needs.

Marine protected areas are one of the major tools that we will use to conserve biodiversity and associated ecosystem services. In August, the UK put forward to the European Commission 15 new European marine sites for designation. That increase means that 24% of English inshore waters will be covered by marine protected areas. Over the next period, four stakeholder-led regional projects will work to identify possible marine conservation zones.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I very much welcome the announcement on marine protected areas that the Minister has repeated today. Will he give us a brief update on the four projects, mentioning not only the tie-in with socio-economic factors but whether they will be able to generate, in short order, a good, ecologically coherent network of marine conservation zones, including some no-take zones?

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I hope that when we have implemented what he started in Government, he will find something of which he can be immensely proud, as the projects are very much his legacy. We are working well with the four areas. On occasion, I have in my office people who represent socio-economic groups telling me that we are going too far in one direction, and then green non-governmental organisations tell me that we are going too far in the other direction. That makes me wonder—I am only half joking when I say this—whether we might not be getting it just about right.

I am not ignoring the difficulties. I want to ensure that the projects work and that, where possible, we iron out difficulties. I am free to be candid with the hon. Gentleman and anyone else about where I believe those difficulties exist. Working with the stakeholders, I am trying to get around them all. I am determined to stick to the timetable for 2012, but I will not do that at the expense of getting it right; we have waited a long time for the projects, and I want to get them right. However, I think that we can do that in the time scale that we have given ourselves.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I welcome the Minister’s reassurance, and I know that he shares my commitment. At the risk of sounding like I am giving advice from the subs’ bench, the one thing that I would urge—helpfully, I hope—is that he ensures that the decisions taken by those genuine partnerships, where everyone has their say, are solidly underpinned by the right criteria, and by the right judgments based on the best available evidence on marine biology and biodiversity. We would be concerned if the outcome were diluted in any way, or if undue compromises were made.

[Richard Benyon]

That was a concern throughout the passage of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, and it remains a concern for many people. The hon. Gentleman will remember the tortuous process that we went through to establish what we meant by “ecological coherence”, but we have a clear description in the guidance now and I think that we can deliver on it. I hope that we will develop precisely that ecological coherence across the four projects, but he is right: they have to be underpinned by good science, not only for all the reasons that everybody knows about, but because they need credibility, and they will not be underlined with credibility if we have cut corners in any respect. Marine conservation zones, together with European marine sites, SSSIs, and Ramsar sites, will form part of the ecologically coherent network across the UK’s waters that the hon. Gentleman envisaged when he took the Act through Parliament. We will work with devolved Governments in Scotland, Wales and—soon, we hope—Northern Ireland to fulfil our obligations across the UK.

The international year of biodiversity is about engaging people. We need to promote the importance of biodiversity to our economy and well-being, and encourage people to get involved in making a difference. That is why the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has been part-funding a partnership this year, hosted by the natural history museum, to support activities in the UK. Over 430 organisations are involved, all helping to raise the profile of biodiversity among the British public this year—for example, through a series of more then 30 BioBlitz citizen science events around the country, which have been engaging tens of thousands of people with the nature on their doorstep.

We know that protecting our biodiversity needs to be done in partnership. That approach will be even more important in the years ahead, and is already being put into practice through initiatives such as the campaign for the farmed environment, which genuinely has the potential to transform our countryside, protect local ecosystems and increase our native biodiversity. It is important for farmers to grasp this opportunity and prove that these important outcomes can be achieved by working with conservation groups and Government. The Lawton review will indicate what we are doing to protect SSSIs, nature sites and reserves, but we must recognise that 70% or more of the space between those islands of excellence is farmed. Many farmers are doing wonderful things, but the real gains in reversing the decline of biodiversity over recent decades will be made in those spaces.

In line with our commitment to shifting the balance of power from big government to big society, we will work closely with all interested parties—individuals, businesses, civil society groups, land managers, local authorities and many more—to articulate a new, compelling and integrated vision for sustaining and managing our natural environment.

The natural environment White Paper will set out a programme of action designed to put the value of the natural environment at the heart of Government and identify new ways of enabling local authorities and local communities to protect and enhance it. We need to consider biodiversity in the context of climate change, where biodiversity plays a hugely important mitigation and adaptation role. We also need to factor the value of ecosystem services, which are fundamentally supported by biodiversity, into our development and accounting processes.

We should value the contribution that biodiversity makes to our quality of life by inspiring and enriching our lives, and by contributing to our health and well-being. That is why the Government have supported the global study by leading economist Pavan Sukhdev, “The Economics of Ecosystems and Biodiversity”. I recently met him and was interested to hear his wish that he had called it TEN—“The Economics of Nature”—rather than TEEB, as he believes that that is easier for people to understand than a title that includes the words “ecosystems” and “biodiversity”. We understand what he means, and the value of the work that he is doing. We want to transpose the work that he is doing globally on to a UK, European and certainly English perspective.

We recognise that we need to harness the interest generated by Pavan Sukhdev’s study and to maintain its momentum beyond Nagoya. That is why the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the German Minister, Norbert Röttgen, are co-hosting a ministerial-level lunch in the margins of the United Nations General Assembly in New York next week. The purpose of that is to encourage more countries to mainstream valuation in Government policy, maintain the momentum generated by TEEB, and identify initiatives and ideas for embedding the valuation of biodiversity and ecosystems in decision making across Government. As we are joined by two vice-presidents of the Global Legislators Organisation for a Balanced Environment, I want to pay tribute to the work that it is doing in, among other things, encouraging activity on governance so that we can try to embed such valuation in our thinking.

I am grateful for a recent meeting with GLOBE; there was some good thinking on the creation of ministerial posts and on accountancy—the machinery of government, if you like—aimed at embedding such valuing of our natural environment in what we do. There was also thinking on requiring Departments to develop natural capital inventories and to integrate the real value of natural capital into policy-making processes. That is important, and I look forward to taking forward that work with GLOBE and others.

The Darwin initiative has been running since 1993, and has provided over £79 million of financial support to 728 conservation projects in 156 countries. I met the chairman of the Darwin advisory committee, Professor Macdonald, earlier this week, and I hope that we can announce the next round of funding under the scheme later this year. He is one of the most engaging and impressive people I have met for a very long time, and I look forward to working with him on the important work that he and his committee are doing. We are also doing a lot of work on assessing the state of our ecosystems through the national ecosystem assessment. That includes studying how the value of our ecosystem services and biodiversity has changed over the past 60 years, and how it might change in future. It is only by understanding the past that we can plan for the future.

The way we deliver on our commitments will be placed in the context of our overall requirement to reduce the deficit and reflect the Government’s plans for reducing regulatory burdens. We will have to await the outcome of the spending review to know what resources will be allocated to this important area. However, we know that we can no longer afford the costs to our economy and our quality of life that arise from a degraded natural environment.

The international year of biodiversity provides an ideal opportunity to focus on the challenges ahead and to develop workable solutions. It will take an ambitious and radical transformation in our economy, our society and the way we secure our future, but the prize is worth it, and essential for our well-being.

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[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs regularly meets the Secretary of State for International Development, but last week she met him and the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change. They were talking about sustainability and they are going to New York next week to talk about the millennium development goals. We cannot achieve those goals unless we have sustainability at the heart of our actions.

My hon. Friend points out, quite rightly, that one can achieve quick wins in international development: we can have a gift from the people of Britain of a pump that is put on some giant structure that perhaps pumps thousands of gallons of water every day into some irrigation system. However, we could have a much more sustainable solution, which provides a better deal for the British taxpayer as well as for that environment, by protecting the ecosystem that provides the water in the first place. I know that I am preaching to the choir here, but that point must be understood across Government and that is why sustainability must be at the heart of our actions.

The hon. Member for Brent North also touched on the issue of coastal erosion. He talked about coastal erosion in the gulf of Mexico, but I saw coastal erosion nearer to home last week, or the week before—the weeks are merging into one at the moment. I went to Norfolk and Suffolk and saw for myself what is a quite—I use my words carefully—frightening prospect for communities living in that area. During the last 50 years, the collective class of politicians has been party to a slight con of the people in certain coastal areas of Britain, in arguing that this concept of “holding the line” is achievable amid the modern pressures of our economy. The idea that we can ring large parts of our coast with constructions of steel and concrete for ever more—that is just not going to happen. Therefore, we must certainly develop innovative financial solutions to hold the line where we can, but we must also look at some of the sustainable solutions that the hon. Gentleman was discussing, such as salt flats, mudflats and other constructions that work. There is wonderful work going on and I am really impressed by the people that I meet in the Environment Agency and in the Department who completely get the necessity of taking that route.

The hon. Gentleman also talked about measuring cost, which was also touched on by the hon. Member for Ogmore, who speaks from their party’s Front Bench, in relation to eco-tourism. To a brutally simplistic economist advising a Japanese whaling company, the value of a whale would be calculated in terms of the value of the product as against the cost of harvesting that animal in whatever part of the seas it is found, and the cost of the fuel for the ship. However, if we compare that with the value of that animal as a global eco-tourism resource, we see that there is no viability in whaling at all. Whaling can survive only with huge investments from Governments to support the few jobs that remain in the industry. That was brought home to me very clearly when I went to the International Whaling Commission in Agadir. The number of species, including whales, and the scale of the fish stocks that we manage to maintain in our oceans are also indicators of the general state of the seas. Therefore, the issues that the hon. Gentlemen covered are incredibly important.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) put a local perspective on the importance of engaging local people, which is vital. In our structural reform plan, our business plan for the Department, we said that we will work with the Department for Communities and Local Government to protect green areas of particular importance to local communities. As we develop housing, we must understand that we can build an enormous number of benefits into new housing schemes—sustainable drainage systems, green open spaces or a conservation credit system—to replace the biodiversity lost due to the creation of those communities. Ultimately, though, it is the constituents and the people who live in our communities whose well-being it is in all our interests to maintain. Therefore, the right environment is vital, and he is right to raise the issue.

The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) made a powerful plea in support of plants as an important part of biodiversity. Too often, we think of biodiversity in terms of fur and feather. She is absolutely right that plants are intrinsically important. I went to the natural history museum within days of my appointment, and was shown the mind map that is biodiversity. Mammals are a tiny part of it. Compared with fungi and plant life, we are a small part of that great picture. The hon. Lady is right: that is why the millennium seed bank is important. We should all feel proud that it is based here in Britain.

I can give the hon. Lady the comfort that one part of the conservation zeitgeist in Britain at the moment is landscape-scale conservation. The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds cares about that, and it is the purpose of areas of outstanding natural beauty, national parks and wildlife trusts. It draws together key areas with farmland in between and does conservation work on that scale. That is how to succeed, and how the plants that she talks about will be protected.

The hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Ongar mentioned peat, which is important to the Government. I recently visited the Peak District national park and saw the impressive peat restoration project there. I had not understood how degraded the peat had become due to the effects of a century or more of pollution, or what work, skills and technologies were involved in the vital job of protecting it.

At the other end of the argument, it is vital that we consider the market for peat and ensure that it is sustainable. The quick win is getting companies such as B&Q to use man-made products; it is the smaller companies, the local garage and other such outlets selling peat that must be worked on. We love having summits; I hope that they are summits with a purpose. We are having a peat summit at which we will get together with all the companies that sell peat to ensure that we drive forward that vital agenda.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

May I suggest that, as part of that peat summit or an extension of it, the Minister engages with his ministerial colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and elsewhere? One opportunity in a transfer from traditional peat extractive industries to industries based on substitute products, if it is done in a joined-up way, is that we can create and lead in the European market a new industry involving green environmental substitutes for peat. That is a great opportunity for UK plc and British industry, but it cannot be left to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs alone; it will require engagement with other Departments.

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[Richard Benyon]

I agree entirely. That is where Government and local government can lead. It can be written into section 106 agreements that green spaces will be maintained in an environmentally friendly way, including the use of such products. That will create a market that can be developed so the cost base comes down, and people can start to make the right choice when purchasing fuel.

The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland and others mentioned the uplands. They are a matter of absolute importance to us, as is the support that we can provide to those who manage them—the people who live and work in some of the most hostile climates in this country—and maintain them for the benefit of us all. The Minister of State—my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Mr Paice)—and I are working closely on policies that will support the uplands, and we will make an announcement in the near future.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

One concern doing the rounds of the rumour mill here is that higher-level stewardship might not be part of those considerations any more. If the Government are so minded—I do not expect the Minister to tell me today whether HLS will continue—will he give a commitment that whatever schemes come after it will deliver at least the benefits of existing schemes? Otherwise, we will go backwards in terms of biodiversity.

[Richard Benyon]

I wish that I could answer that question precisely, but until I am 101% certain, I cannot give the hon. Gentleman the reply that he deserves. However, we value HLS and understand its importance, and I hope to be able to satisfy his concerns in the near future.

[Richard Benyon]

I entirely understand that point, but we cannot support HLS to the exclusion of other systems. The benefit of entry-level stewardship is that it is done over a lot of space. Others have spoken today about the need for connectivity between our natural sites; agricultural land is the key to getting that right. It is important to get the balance right. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I hear the points that have been made.

My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) spoke in support of the points made by the hon. Member for Brent North, and noted, as I have done, the important work being done with farmers by water companies. That has been a revelation to me, and I have started to think about how it can be extended. I applaud the water companies that are doing such work for showing us how caring for the natural environment saves the taxpayer from having to build large constructions, nitrate-stripping plants and so on. Ultimately, too, the customer gets better-quality water at less cost, the environment is protected and the farmer is rewarded. It is an entirely virtuous circle for ecosystems, and I am slightly incredulous that I did not twig earlier in life that that is obviously the way forward. I applaud those doing it.

The hon. Member for Ongar mentioned the Darwin initiative—

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

For the sake of the record—knowing that at some point some committed person might read this debate—I am the Member for Ogmore.

[Richard Benyon]

I apologise. The hon. Gentleman and I have sparred for many years; I do not know what has got into me. Ogmore—how disgraceful of me to get it wrong.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Or Ogwr, in Welsh.

[Richard Benyon]

I will try the English version. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Darwin initiative. I spoke about it earlier, and I know of its value. In my conversation with Professor Macdonald, I discussed things that I had seen in parts of the world where there is great pressure between local people and certain species that we in the west might value, such as elephants, large cats and tigers. We need to lever funding to encourage local people to value those species, rather than see them as a threat to their existence. That is very much the case with elephants in northern Kenya, for example, where group ranching schemes can be operated with local people. Such schemes allow local people to get value from tolerating those animals. Those are the sorts of things that the Darwin initiative has been particularly good at, and I want to see it do such things in future.

There has been much talk today about the Treasury. My experience of those who work in the Treasury is that they are very warm and cuddly souls who have nothing but the milk of human kindness flowing in their veins, so I hope that some of the apocalyptic views of the future of funding will not come to pass. Ultimately, it comes down to how these matters are viewed at the highest levels in Government, and the issues of the natural environment and biodiversity are absolutely at the core of the highest levels of this Government. In our Department, those issues are part of our three main areas of priority.

Some of today’s comments have been about how to get across the message on biodiversity, and how we brand it in a way that people understand. I was very taken by the words of Jonathon Porritt, who some years ago admitted that if the green movement has a problem it is that it can be unutterably miserable about the prospects for our globe, planet, society and existence. He said that if the green movement could be more optimistic, it might be listened to by more people. That was very self-effacing and courageous. If we try to communicate the problems about biodiversity purely by saying that the situation is miserable and terrible things are happening, it becomes a weight on people’s shoulders that, in their busy lives, they do not want to bother with. We need to make people feel close to the issue and encourage them to become involved with it—whether that is with the local countryside around where they live, or through concern for an international species that is under threat or the marine environment where they go on holiday. Those are the sort of drivers that will be much more effective in unleashing the undoubted enthusiasm that exists in society for this key cornerstone of our existence.

The hon. Member for Ogmore talked about his experience on ministerial visits. I had a fascinating visit to Bristol where, just a few yards from 500,000 people, I saw some plants being protected that do not exist anywhere else within the Avon gorge, and I was practically dive-bombed by a peregrine. All of that existence was being maintained locally by enthusiastic volunteers, a committed local authority, and government in the form of Natural England and others doing their bit and working together. I completely understand the need for partnership. I also understand the importance of uniting the environment, the economy and society in one concept to deal with the issue.

I will now tackle the specific questions that the hon. Member for Ogmore put to me. We very much hope that the issues of access and benefit sharing can be taken forward at Nagoya. That is an absolute priority. Some people are depressed about the prospects for Nagoya, but that should not mean that we do not try our hardest. We do not want a clash between the developed world, the fast-developing world and the developing world, which is way behind. That dynamic is not insurmountable; we can find a way through. I welcome the fact that a number of different people are going there. I also welcome the fact that GLOBE is so much at the centre of trying to push the concept of doing the work set out in TEEB, and of putting the issues of biodiversity, ecosystems, and green accounting—valuing our natural environment—at the heart of Government.

On Lawton, I share the hon. Gentleman’s enthusiasm. National parks and AONBs all have a role in our campaign to reverse the decline in biodiversity. That will be absolutely vital for a host of organisations, including those that are voluntary or member-led—the National Trust, the Wildlife Trusts, small local groups and many more. I look forward to hearing what Sir John says in his report and I applaud the work that he and others have done. I have seen at first hand—well, through a video link—a BioBlitz in Bristol. They are very impressive. It was truly impressive to see young people engaged in that way.

The hon. Gentleman wants to know how we are going to take the matter forward and whether at the end of the international year of biodiversity we are going to forget all about it. No, we are not. He and others would not let me, and we would not want to. It is very important that we build up a head of steam through the international and national work that is taking place, particularly through our White Paper. We can carry that forward and translate it into real, positive action on the ground. That head of steam, or wave of enthusiasm, will not be allowed to diminish.

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[Richard Benyon]

I am well aware of the importance of our overseas territories. The RSPB and others are campaigning hard. Work is being done in places such as Tristan da Cunha and other islands, some of which the hon. Gentleman referred to. I am not entirely certain how that matter will be structured within the White Paper on the natural environment, but I will certainly take his thoughts back to the team. We are conscious of the importance of our responsibilities beyond, as he says, the 12-mile limit.

I hope that the hon. Member for Ogmore thinks that we are continuing the good work that he was doing on common fisheries policy reform. The difference this time around is that we are pushing at an open door with the Commission. Local control is what is needed. We need an ecosystem basis for assessing the matter in the round. It is absolutely vital that there is marine planning, which we are undertaking at the moment, and that a holistic view of our marine environment is taken. There needs to be an end to silo thinking—whether that is by species, geography or sectoral interest. Such an approach has to go; it is in the past. He is right: there are some good people in the Department working on this. We, too, will be working with the devolved Governments to ensure such an approach.

As the hon. Gentleman said, there are global management responsibilities when it comes to fishing. I am keen to support the pan-African agreement on fisheries and to support communities because, as we were discussing, if we allow their fisheries to collapse, we will all feel the impact. If we were to encourage aquaculture that did not take a sustainable approach, we could be diminishing tilapia stocks in other countries, which could have a disastrous effect on their economies. That is just one example.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned uplands. I have already said that of course we value uplands as precious habitats. We understand the importance of schemes that have supported them in the past and that will do so in the future. On the Campaign for the Farmed Environment, the previous Government made the right decision to take a voluntary approach. We have to ensure that we can deliver on that, as must the farmers. They are at the heart of the programme, with the National Farmers Union and other landowning interests, such as the Country Land and Business Association. We will work closely with them. Are we confident that we can measure those benefits? That is something I am determined will come out of the White Paper on the natural environment. I want to ensure that we have a clear way of measuring the benefits that will undoubtedly come out of the programme.

One word that I believe is important is “outcomes”. I want us to be completely driven by the need for outcomes. Enormous amounts of public money can be put into the hands of farmers and other organisations, but although they might be doing good work by creating habitats in their areas, they could be ignoring some factor, meaning that we are not fledging more farmland birds or creating more invertebrate habitats. It is so important that an outcomes approach is at the heart of our thinking.

The hon. Gentleman also mentioned non-native and invasive species. I, too, hope that the introduction of psyllids will be a success; I have read the report of a recent debate on that in the House of Lords. I know that the scientific work testing whether it is the right approach is at an advanced stage and hope that we can find a natural way to deal with harmful invasive species.

On the water framework directive, the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that a partnership approach is the way forward. Lord Smith, from the Environment Agency, and I discussed that this morning and are taking forward a variety of ideas. River trusts are full of enthusiastic, knowledgeable and committed people, and I want to harness their enthusiasm, along with that of a range of other people who are interested in rivers, whether they are anglers, naturalists or people who want to watch otters, for example. Everyone should feel a sense of ownership of not only the narrow stream of their river, but the entire catchment. Engaging that enthusiasm when providing governance for our rivers as we implement the water framework directive will be absolutely key.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I agree with the gist of what the Minister is saying. I think that the first tranche of the river catchment management plans were right in their approach and ambition, although we would have liked to have seen a little more ambition. However, they were met with some caution because they did not go far enough. The previous Government would have faced the difficulty of finding out how to do even more, and the Minister now faces the challenge of doing even more—we all agree that we need to move up the scale, logarithmically, on water quality—with less. Can he say with confidence that, whatever way he cuts it, whether through partnership or whatever, the outcomes approach he talked about will be apparent, so that we deliver huge, tangible improvements over the next five to 10 years not only in water quality, but in the ecology of those river systems?

[Richard Benyon]

I am prepared to say that we can. I have dealt at great length with a variety of people and organisations over the past few months to see how we can move forward in the important direction in which the directive takes us. Whether or not we had a directive, that is a route that we would take anyway. The hon. Gentleman will know that we face judicial review over certain aspects of it, but I want to go beyond the point of lining the pockets of lawyers, and instead work with organisations, such as those taking that legal route, to ensure that we achieve what we all want: a much better ecology for our rivers. In recent years we got to grips with point source pollution, and credit for that is due to the previous Government, but the big challenge now is to deal with diffuse pollution, which is not easy.

On the illegal trade in protected species, we have carried forward the previous Government’s work in a variety of ways. We are determined that the UK should not be a hub for the activities of criminals who trade in illegal products from endangered species. Where we find that products suddenly have new value, there will be stiff action. The hon. Gentleman will have seen that we recently signed an order that seriously limits the trade in old rhino products. The mounted head of a rhino hanging on someone’s wall, which could have been shot 60 or 70 years ago, could now be of huge value in international sales, so we have banned the sale of those products unless an extremely good case can be made for it leaving the country. There is much evidence to prove that such products are being used in the illegal medicines trade, as is the case for ivory.

I recently met the secretary-general of CITES—the convention on international trade in endangered species—who was very supportive of our national wildlife crime unit’s enforcement work. He gave me an indication of the international nature of the trade and how it is important to work in partnerships, and the European Union is important in that regard. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are no less determined. I hope to go out with the national wildlife crime unit and to assist it in feeling a collar or two in the near future.

The hon. Gentleman asked what units of measurement will be used. Those will be developed, and there will be no secret in our processes for doing so. If he or others want to contribute to how we do that, they will be welcome. We will be building on the work of Pavan Sukhdev and TEEB and developing that through the White Paper. Hopefully, by next spring the hon. Gentleman will have an indication of how we can do that. The benefit is that we can start to develop concepts such as conservation credits, which could have a huge benefit in preventing biodiversity loss.

The hon. Gentleman also asked about the place of climate change and biodiversity on the international agenda. Next week I will attend the OSPAR convention, and climate change and biodiversity will be at the centre of what we will say when working with partners in that forum and in the EU. I hope that I have indicated today that we will push those ideas forward next week in New York, next month in Nagoya and in any international environment we can.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

One of the big-picture issues that the Minister has not fully addressed is where to go from here, in terms of the mechanisms of government. Perhaps I could offer a practical way forward, if he would agree to meet me, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), who has experience of the matter, and perhaps the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith). I appreciate that that is at Secretary-of-State level, but it would be good to have the opportunity to push the boat out a little further. I am sure that that is not going to come through in its entirety in the White Paper, but it is something that we should be doing over the next couple of years, and we have to start that process.

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful for that offer. I will certainly talk with anyone about that, particularly those who have had experience in government. We are still relative newcomers at looking at the machinery of government from the inside, so any assistance that the hon. Gentleman or others can give would be much appreciated. I sense that there is a determination and a real interest at the top of the Government to try to take those ideas forward, so we will work together on that.

The loss of biodiversity, the degradation of the environment and ecosystems, and the need to adapt to and mitigate climate change are the global challenges of our age. International agreement on the successor to the 2010 biodiversity target must be secured. The existing target has galvanised action across the world by Governments and NGOs to tackle the most urgent problems. We cannot afford to lose momentum and must all redouble our efforts to achieve success under a new target.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Benyon and Huw Irranca-Davies

Thursday 9th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

On the latter point, obviously I cannot prejudge the comprehensive spending review, which will be announced on 20 October. However, my hon. Friend will know, from the coalition document and our Department’s structural reform plan, the priority that we are giving to such matters. Under her chairmanship, the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will look closely at the issue. I have met with the Association of British Insurers, and I believe that my hon. Friend is joining us next week—or in the near future—for a summit with the insurance industry to talk about such matters. I assure her that the statement of principles is an absolute priority, and 2013 is a date very much in our minds. We want to ensure continuity in the future, because of the uncertainty for the 5.2 million households at risk from flooding.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) on her elevation to the Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee. I know that she will do sterling work. She and the Minister will know that, even with the massive investment in flood defences in recent years, including existing plans to protect another 200,000 homes by 2015, we will need to double investment over the next 25 years just to keep pace with climate change. In the short term, therefore, will the Minister at least maintain our existing commitment to protect more homes, year on year, over the next five years?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Benyon and Huw Irranca-Davies

Thursday 24th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

I must apologise if I have not replied already. I thank the hon. Gentleman for inviting me to the event, which brought together people from across the world, and for chairing it so well. The event gave us the opportunity to show that what we are doing on marine conservation in this country is ahead of what is being done in many other countries, so people can learn from what we do. I assure him that I will reply to him as soon as I can and take forward the recommendations of that excellent organisation.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I welcome the ministerial team to their positions. I know that they will do their very best in their roles and I ask them to keep the Department in good shape for us.

The CFP is on the agenda of the European Council meeting on 29 June. At that and subsequent meetings, will the Minister try to change the rigid rules that bind the hands of member states in international negotiations so that they abstain when they cannot reach consensus, thus condemning iconic species such as the bluefin tuna and perhaps whales?

[Richard Benyon]

I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman, with whom I worked closely when we sat on opposite sides of the House, for his hard work in doing an awful lot for the fishing community.

I am bemused by the arrangements requiring members of the European Union with a long tradition in the International Whaling Commission, including ourselves, to find an absolutely solid position with EU colleagues. The hon. Gentleman is to be credited for taking an independent line on bluefin tuna. I will take up the matter seriously, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and other colleagues are also concerned about the voting procedure.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

On the issue raised by the hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd), I know that great expectations were raised in Hastings and elsewhere about the future of the under-10s fleet. I welcome the Minister’s remarks about the work that has already been done, particularly with the SAIF—sustainable access to inshore fisheries—project. There was, however, an expectation of a master plan and an additional way forward, so will he tell us what that is?

[Richard Benyon]

I do not want to sound weak, but it is work in progress. I concede, and am the first to admit, that what seems incredibly simple in opposition can become more complicated, as the hon. Gentleman will understand. However, I am deeply mindful that we must recognise that fishing supports not only fishermen themselves, but communities. The Government will be focused on those communities. On the back of the SAIF project, we will bring forward answers in the medium term. We are looking to try to provide more quota and fishing capacity on a daily basis, and that will continue around the coastline.