Ukraine

Debate between Nick Smith and Andrew Murrison

Thursday 27th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dr Murrison]

My hon. Friend is right, and he can be assured that we are working with the Ukrainians to ensure that that interoperability is there. I have to say that historically, even among NATO members, it has often been very difficult to get one system or one country to work with another. That has been a long-standing theme throughout the whole of NATO’s history, so it should not be underestimated. Vilnius will deal with it in some considerable depth and detail, and I hope that in future—as we anticipate the defence of Ukraine for the long term—that interoperability will be greatly enhanced.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his earlier response, but can he say what longer-range weapons the UK will provide to Ukraine and when they will be supplied?

[Dr Murrison]

The AS-90 is a good artillery piece, and Ukraine will certainly find it a great benefit in doing what it has to do. The aim of our support to Ukraine is to enable it to defend itself; it most certainly is not to go beyond that. It is defensive, which is why ground-to-air is so important. It is also important to consider the UK’s position going forward in terms of the artillery provided to our own military. That piece of work is going on at pace so that we can find a replacement for the AS-90 that is fit to face down the threat we may have from Russia and others in future.

Draft Armed Forces (Tri-Service Serious Crime Unit) (Consequential Amendments) (No. 2) Regulations 2022 Draft Armed Forces (Court Martial) (Amendment) Rules 2022

Debate between Nick Smith and Andrew Murrison

Monday 21st November 2022 General Committees

[Dr Murrison]

I think this might be a matter of semantics, but I can tell the hon. Lady that no impact assessment has been published or produced. I hope that is satisfactory, and I hope that in my remarks, I will be able to clarify why that is and reassure her that there is no need for such an exercise, if that is of any help.

The first of the SIs we are debating today is to establish the tri-service serious crime unit; the second deals with changes to court martial rules in the service justice system. The first SI makes a minor consequential amendment to regulation 8(1) of the Armed Forces Regulations 2009, which in turn was made under the Armed Forces Act 2006. That change is required to support the establishment of the defence serious crime unit, otherwise known as the DSCU. It does so by ensuring that the new Provost Marshal and service police personnel of that tri-service unit are governed by the same legislation as the existing three single-service Provosts Marshal and single-service police forces.

The instrument amends regulation 8(1) to include any reports prepared by, or provided to, the tri-service crime unit to be provided to a person’s commanding officer when referring that person’s case to the Director of Service Prosecutions. This is not new; it is simply something that has arisen as a consequence of the creation of the defence serious crime unit. Although this is only a minor and consequential amendment, the original set of regulations it amends is subject to the affirmative procedure, meaning that this SI must also follow that procedure.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

Page 3 of the explanatory memorandum—item 10, “Consultation outcome”—says that there was “no formal consultation”. It does, however, say that

“A range of stakeholders have been consulted”,

so could the Minister say what the Provosts Marshal said by way of response?

[Dr Murrison]

I saw the Provost Marshal of the defence serious crime unit last week, and the regulations have been worked up by, among others, the Provost Marshal’s service. As I will go on to explain, although I hope it is not controversial, the Armed Forces Act 2021 establishes something quite new and innovative and, as a consequence of the Lyons and Henriques reports, a unit for serious crime. The Provost Marshal, among others, was consulted in the process of drawing up the Armed Forces Act and the regulations that stem from it, which we are debating today. They have not arisen de novo. They are the result of widespread consultation to make sure we get this right. I will come on to this later, but they align what happens in defence more closely with what happens in civilian policing and prosecutorial institutions. I hope that that helps the hon. Gentleman.

I will provide an update on what is happening in the formation of the DSCU if it is of interest to the Committee. A lot of this will not be new to the Committee, but it is worth covering it. Those who were involved in the Armed Forces Act will be familiar with it. Nevertheless, it is important that the Committee is apprised of where we are with the organisation that is about to be stood up.

The Armed Forces Act set out a framework for the establishment of a tri-service serious crime unit for service police and enabled the appointment of a new Provost Marshal. Under the direction of the new Provost Marshal, who was appointed in January and whom I met last week, the MOD has undertaken the necessary prep work for the new tri-service unit to become operational next month. The work has focused on the structure and resourcing of the DSCU and has included the establishment of a defence serious crime command—a strategic command headquarters for the DSCU based at Southwick Park, Fareham, which is home to the Defence School of Policing and Guarding. It has been operational since April.

The defence serious crime command will sit outside the single-service chain of command, ensuring operational independence, giving greater reassurance to victims and building trust in service justice. It will provide strategic direction to the DSCU, allowing the unit to focus on the delivery of serious crime policing. One strategic aim is to improve the capability of defence to deal with the most serious offences. Reservist service police, the majority of whom are civilian police officers, will be better utilised, lending their experience and knowledge, in keeping with a general trend in the use of reservists, which I commend to the Committee, while fessing up that I am myself a reservist.

For staff joining the DSCU, external placements with Home Office police forces will be used, and there will be a continued focus on building single-area specialisms as part of career development. That will be supported by the adoption of civilian policing qualifications in accordance with College of Policing and National Police Chiefs’ Council guidance. I hope right hon. and hon. Members have spotted a theme in benchmarking best practice and ironing out the potential for discrepancies, to which I am committed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Murrison]

I think we had this conversation on 31 October during the urgent question. The Government take the view that service justice is best discharged using the current arrangements, and Henriques appeared to be comfortable with that. Although I suspect that the hon. Lady will not like the answer, it is felt that the status quo is probably acceptable at the moment, and Henriques has certainly opined favourably on the quality of justice dispensed by the current mechanism. As we discussed on 31 October, there are no current plans to change that, but as with everything, matters are kept under review.

We need to ensure that the quality of justice being dispensed using the parallel justice system is commensurate with, and equal in quality to, that which is dispensed in the wider civilian criminal justice system. From my remarks today, I hope it is clear that my view is that we should ensure that, wherever we can, we have systems with a great deal of overlap—that is to say that one can check off against the other—to assure ourselves that what is being done in one system is not radically different from what is being done in the other, and that the quality of justice dispensed is not different.

I will continue talking about the rationale for extending eligibility for board membership to OR-7s. Doing so will mean that the single services have a wider pool of experienced personnel to draw on, and we will support the new rule to increase the representation of women on court martial boards, which was debated in Committee on 26 October. It may also reduce the burden on officers required on boards where the defendant is of an other rank. The existing rule about all members being senior to the defendant is unchanged, meaning that OR-7 personnel will only be able to serve on boards hearing cases where the defendant is of the same, or a lower, rank.

To sum up, three of these four rule changes were recommended to the Department by Shaun Lyons, a highly respected retired senior Crown court judge. The other rule change reflects a sensible business continuity measure for three-member boards—that is, the additional member to cover the unexpected loss of one of them.

[Nick Smith]

The Minister is being very generous with his time. Coming back to his earlier point about seeking consistency of outcomes, why has the Minister not adopted the proposal of the Government-commissioned Henriques review that the deputy Provost Marshal of the DSCU ought to be a civilian?