Benefit Claimants Sanctions (Required Assessment) Bill

Debate between Mims Davies and Martin Docherty-Hughes

2nd reading: House of Commons
Friday 2nd December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mims Davies (Eastleigh) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the lively, considered and very honest speech from the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Anne McLaughlin), who shared her personal journey. The House is at its best when we share our personal experiences, as we have heard from across the House today.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mhairi Black) on producing the Bill; it was no easy feat. I am sure that many hours and much hard work went into it. It has given Members on both sides of the House a chance to look at the issues, to challenge their views and to question whether there is some lack of understanding. I recognise that for many this is an emotional, difficult and distressing subject. It is important, especially with the introduction of universal credit, that we continue to make sure that the benefits system is not only fair but humane.

I have sat through today’s interventions and passionate speeches, and I have sought to listen and to understand, and I now wish to bring to bear my own experiences, as an MP and a mum, and as somebody who has conducted surgeries and is doing related casework locally. When I meet constituents in peril, I speak to them about benefits assessments and mental health support. As we have heard today, it does not end just at the MP’s office. My staff and I take this support extremely seriously, as do all those who work to provide support, be they those in the local community and charities sector or those working in the local departments. I would like to put on the record my huge thanks to all the staff who work in these various departments and to my team and all the casework teams getting to the bottom of these matters. We will learn nothing in the House if we do not bring that to bear here.

I have spoken to my casework team this week and reflected on past meetings with constituents, and very often we are talking about constituents who have not attended assessment or interview. We have heard today the many and multifarious reasons why people have not turned up to interview or provided the necessary documentation in time.

It can be heart-breaking to hear that sanctions have been applied in some cases because people were unable to read and write and therefore be a part of the system. If people cannot understand the system and it does not work for them, it can be frightening.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

I mentioned earlier that in my constituency there is great partnership working between the DWP and what is called in Scotland “the community planning process”, through which all partners within a local authority come together. Does the hon. Lady agree that, on reflection, the DWP needs to improve that aspect of its working, not only in my constituency but across the United Kingdom? If the system is to benefit those most in need, does she agree that that needs to happen, rather than, as in my constituency, withdrawing officers from food banks?

[Mims Davies]

I absolutely agree about the importance of an integrated approach. Last night, I gave out an award at one of my local colleges for one of the most improved maths and English students. Some people who came to the local college were unable to engage with education, let alone a benefits system. We need to understand that people must feel able to participate in the process.

In some cases, my constituents were aware of what they needed to do, but they somehow failed to gain a sense of ownership or an understanding of the process, which led to complications and, in some cases, very regrettable sanctions. I have been involved with parents and others who are concerned about vulnerable individuals. I found from my surgery work that in some cases the reason for non-attendance—illness, for example— had not been taken into account.

We met some great success with sanctions decisions being reversed when there was an unavoidable reason for failure to comply. Inevitably, however, there were some instances where sanctions were imposed and no good reason existed. My team and I have been able to work alongside the individuals and families in cases where the process has got on top of them—and my biggest concern about the Bill is that it amounts to more process in a difficult and complex area.

In addition to dealing with DWP benefit sanctions, I have worked with a small number of HMRC tax credit suspension inquiries due to investigations regarding the eligibility of single living claims. HMRC has recognised problems and implemented solutions that have helped to sort out the bottlenecks surrounding evidence by claimants. This has reduced the number of delayed decisions locally. I thank HMRC for its work in this respect.

For some constituents who approached me for help with making progress on getting a decision to reinstate their claim, the problem has been the consistency of their evidence. There can be a discrepancy between what people say to their MPs or their work coaches and what they actually do. I am sure that other hon. Members will have had their own experiences. Indeed, we have heard in today’s debate the wealth of knowledge that Members have brought into play.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South once again on her Bill. I am yet to be successful in the private Member’s Bill process, and I am sure that it is an absolute minefield. The hon. Lady therefore deserves our congratulations.

Before I come on to the specifics of the Bill, I believe it is necessary to examine its main principles. Clearly, the Bill is not designed specifically to reverse the conditionality of the system, as the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South was at pains to point out. It is going to be quite difficult to ensure that any benefits system is going to work where any condition is likely to arise. We have heard about the importance of assessing and assessing again after sanctions.

To some extent the debate has been about showing our colours—whether we as Members agree or disagree with conditionality in the sanctions. I do believe in it, as long as it sits alongside, as it must, positive transitional work and local support for increasing employment. There is absolutely no point, as we have heard, in having the stick without the carrot. It is all about getting the right balance.

The National Audit Office report on how people have been affected by sanctions and how likely they are to get into work has rightly been acknowledged. The review states:

“The existence of benefit conditionality and a system of sanctions is…supported almost uniformly across the political spectrum in Great Britain.”

It also notes that similar systems can be found throughout the developed world, and Members have mentioned many different countries today. As we have heard, and as I have been at pains to point out, 70% of claimants are more likely to follow the rules if they know that they could be sanctioned—but only if they understand the system.

A system of sanctions is a necessary and well-supported part of our benefits structure. We know that the conditions need to be checked, and that they should be used fairly. I do not think that any Member in any part of the House believes in unfairness, and it should be rooted out.