Technical and Further Education Bill

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Donaghy

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 27th February 2017 Grand Committee

[Baroness Donaghy]

My Lords, I want to follow the important point made by the noble Lord, Lord Baker. At the beginning of the first day of Committee, I said I hoped at the end of this to have a clearer understanding of the organisational chart and who was responsible for what. The longer the discussion has gone on, the more I am clear that this will be, as the noble Lord, Lord Baker, said, a fairly draconian change, which may be for the better.

However, I offer a word of caution. Some of us have lived through the birth, life and death of the Council for National Academic Awards or CNAA, some of us through the B Ed, and some of us through the area training organisations. At one stage, one of my roles at the former Institute of Education was to look after 48 teacher training colleges, which were training 26,000 teachers. It had a central and, it has to be said, very bureaucratic system of recognition for teachers at the university to ensure that they were all of the right standard and that all the institutions were offering the right quality. I emphasise that we had a complex and inadequate system. In trying to do something which is much needed and replace one system with a better system, we should not make some of the mistakes that we have all made—all Governments have made them; I am not trying to make a party- political point—by creating a structure which turns out to be Frankenstein.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I shall not make any general assertions of what may or may not happen. I take the “all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds” approach to this. However, is the institute going to issue an apprenticeship certificate? The schedule refers to the:

“Power to issue technical education certificate”.


We heard some examples of where there could be an apprenticeship without a technical qualification, so is the institute involved in that?

I want to address the point the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, made that on the completion of an apprenticeship there should be a stamp of approval, so that you have something to show. In the old days, you got a beautifully illuminated manuscript. I was not assuming that the Government would go that far, but I remember that the master bricklayer who lived across the road from me had an exceedingly impressive document from his apprenticeship. I am not expecting that but I want to know what this actually includes. Can we be assured that every apprentice, on completing their apprenticeship successfully, will get a certified stamp of approval?

National Minimum Wage Regulations 2015

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Donaghy

Monday 2nd March 2015 Grand Committee

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

My Lords, these proposals seem to be eminently sensible and are to be welcomed—and it is very good to have cross-party agreement on the success of the national minimum wage. As the Minister will know, I served as one of the first members of the Low Pay Commission; we established the first figure for the minimum wage. More importantly, we established the framework for what was included—and what was not—in the minimum wage, such as overtime, London weighting and all the other important details that have led to the continuing success and recognition of the minimum wage.

I do not think that it is remembered now what pressures there were before the minimum wage was established—political pressures and also pressures on the Low Pay Commission—for absolute secrecy, because any leaks would have undermined the whole venture. I remember one of the away weekends that the Low Pay Commission had in its first few months. It was in the days before everybody had a mobile phone. We were incommunicado in this particular place. Relatives could get through only by ringing the residential place we were staying in and using the code word “chrysanthemum”. Has the world not changed in 17 years? It seems laughable that so few people had mobiles. I am not sure how many relatives of mine could even have said the word “chrysanthemum”.

Nowadays, we underplay—not deliberately, because it is so well established on a cross-party basis—the importance of the minimum wage. I very much hope that it will remain a cross-party venture and that we do not play politics too much with this issue. The Low Pay Commission does a very important job representing, on a tripartite basis, all the interests involved in the world of employment—and long may that continue.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, welcome this particular statutory instrument and the introduction by the Minister. I thank my noble friend for her historical assessment. I am sure that her relatives could have said “chrysanthemum”. They might have had trouble spelling it, but that is another matter.

I thank the Minister for recognising that we introduced the minimum wage—though, I have to say, that was against the wishes of some and with dire predictions about the millions of jobs that would be lost. I am glad that we have put that behind us and I welcome the enthusiasm now.

Obviously, anything that simplifies and clarifies is to be welcomed. I welcome the point about the enforcement budgets being increased. I am interested in whether the statistic of 162 employers being named is, as I presume, for 2013-14. Maybe I missed the precise date. I just wonder whether the number of employers being reported is going up. Is the number of queries to workers’ rights helplines increasing?

I note from the Explanatory Memorandum that the Minister is due to clarify the guidance this year. It is really important that we get that right. As a matter of interest, are we keeping any statistics on the fact that, over the recent past few years, we have now had introduced the concept of a living wage? I do not expect the Minister to have any information on that, but I wonder if we are keeping any statistical evidence on it. If he has something on it, better still. Other than those questions and comments, I am happy to support this.

Industrial Training Levy (Construction Industry Training Board) Order 2015

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Donaghy

Thursday 26th February 2015 Grand Committee

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

My Lords, as the author of a report on the construction industry, in particular fatalities in the construction industry, I spent some time on the area of training and skills uplifting, and met people from the CITB. It is important to place on record how very important the levies are to the particular industries and how very pleased I am that there is cross-party acceptance of the continuation of the levies.

I see that there has been some mild redistribution, or that it will at least take effect in 2017. That is good news. One thing I found in my report was that although the CITB work was very good—that is the area that I know best, rather than the ECITB—there was very little redistribution of the income. It is all very well to say that small companies that are exempt from the levy can still apply for grants, but it is the sheer logistics of sparing members of their workforce to go away and train that causes one of the most difficult problems for small companies. We need to consider ways in which we can persuade companies to take on apprentices, but in the confidence that apprentices will be able to find employment afterwards. With or without the levy, I still think that we are falling down on guaranteeing jobs in some of these companies, even if it means an element of government subsidy for a year or so. I am making a plea for more redistribution.

The Minister referred to deficiency in skill levels. I agree entirely that it would be even worse than it is now if we did not have these levies. I do not think that we can be particularly proud—I am not making a party-political point; this is a problem that has spanned Governments—given the skills shortage in this country, which has been a major problem. The fact that we are importing bricks and bricklayers says quite a lot about the nature of construction in this country. That short-termism is highly damaging to our economy. The fact that we allow so many underskilled and unskilled people on to sites explains, I think, some of the lower levels of productivity that we have. We need to look at the deficiency in skill levels. Some very good work is being done here, but it really is not solving the problem in major areas in our construction industry.

I ought to finish on a positive note. I thoroughly welcome any continuation of the levies, any changes that make life better for the smaller companies and, incidentally, any changes that mean HMRC will have a closer eye on some of the activities in some of the subcontracting areas.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, in principle I, too, welcome the changes in the levy for the CITB and the ECITB. I have a number of questions to put to the Minister, whom I thank for the introduction.

I believe that there is a triennial review taking place. One should know the fate of that, because it is important. We need to be sure that the way in which the levy is organised does not mean that it is at odds with the way in which the CITB is developing.

We have two main concerns about the change in the third year of the levy period. The impact assessment discusses this. I hope the Minister will elaborate a bit further on any mitigating steps to be put in place. The first concern is that the nature of the construction sector is very much that of a subcontracting model. In many respects, prime companies often squeeze the margins of their subcontractors. How will that be addressed? The impact assessment states that a potential effect is the passing on of the costs of the levy from main contractors to subcontractors. That is a common practice outside the existing system and it reduces the legitimacy for employers if they do not pay levies on payments to their own subcontractors. I would welcome the Minister addressing that.

We are particularly concerned about the potential with the change in the third year for the greater use of umbrella companies and labour agencies. That is a real problem for the construction sector. Trade unions such as the Union of Construction Allied Trades & Technicians and others have rightly highlighted the fact that it undermines the efficiency, operation and fairness of the construction sector. This measure could help to increase that usage. What will the Minister do to mitigate that?

My noble friend Lady Donaghy anticipated me—I, too, will refer to the fact that there is a savage irony that despite the levy we still have a shortage in basic but essential skills such as bricklaying. We ought to be looking at how well this scheme does in attracting young people into the industry—especially young women—pointing out that these are good skills and the pay can be good in the right circumstances. We have some concerns about what the industry is doing to improve on that.

In relation to the Engineering Construction Industry Training Board, we know that there is a large demand for new engineering jobs. We have a significant skills shortage in this sector. EngineeringUK states in its latest report:

“Filling the demand for new engineering jobs will generate an additional £27 billion per year for the UK economy from 2022 … To meet projected employer demand the number of engineering apprentices and graduates entering the industry will need to double … Engineering companies will need 182,000 people per year with engineering skills in the decade to 2022 but there is a current annual shortfall of 55,000 skilled workers”.

Do we believe that with the levy as it is currently structured the industry is going to meet that challenge? It is a big challenge and it is a very important one. Is the levy being used innovatively; for example, to go into schools to encourage young people, especially girls, to study things such as GCSE physics? The levy might often be used for people who are entering the industry at the age of 18, 19 or 20 but is it being used more innovatively to ensure that we encourage people to go into these sectors at an early enough age?

Those are the general questions that we have. We support the principle of the levy and the way it is being restructured but we have concerns about the construction industry and the engineering construction industry being able to meet the challenge of skills demand in these important sectors.

Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses (Amendment) Regulations 2014

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Donaghy

Tuesday 9th December 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall be brief. On a quick glance, these seem to be sensible suggestions. I know how unpopular this is when it is blown up in the newspapers that British jobs are being advertised in Polish in Poland. I suspect that it is not as big a problem as newspaper controversies suggest. I am not convinced that the order will make much difference but, nevertheless, its spirit and intentions are good.

I have two questions. First, will the Employment Agency Standards Inspectorate be sufficiently well staffed to undertake the job required of it? Secondly, given the internet and the fact that people can pick up jobs wherever they are in the world, how much difference will this make in restricting the ability of employment agencies and businesses from getting their own way by the back door?

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the measures brought forward by the Government today. It is important that jobs in the UK are advertised and made available to the people who live and want to work here. Indeed, we have already called on the Government to ban agencies from recruiting solely from abroad. However, Ministers are failing to go further to tackle the real problems in the employment agency sector and to halt the exploitation of Britain’s 1 million agency workers.

Agency working can provide flexibility that works for employers and employees, but the main recruitment industry body has warned that the number of rogue agencies has increased over the past three years. These agencies are associated with the worst elements of insecurity in our labour market, including the undercutting of wages and non-payment of the minimum wage. There is evidence that they are marketing agency workers to employers as a way to undercut wages of permanent staff, exploiting agency workers with unfair and illegal charges for travel, accommodation and taxes, in some cases leading to non-payment of the minimum wage, and engaging in tax avoidance schemes.

To reiterate, it is not only us who are saying this. The main industry body for the recruitment sector has warned that the problem of rogue agencies associated with non-payment of the minimum wage is getting worse. Regulatory bodies, including the Employment Agency Standards Inspectorate and HMRC, have also found evidence of non-payment of wages and of tax avoidance schemes. I would obviously welcome the Minister’s comments on that.

If we are in government after next May, we will crack down on employment agencies to tackle the worst elements of insecurity in our labour market. The next Labour Government will close loopholes which allow employment agencies to undercut the wages of permanent staff, ban employment agencies from recruiting only from abroad and force rogue agencies illegally exploiting their workers to clean up their act through measures such as the introduction of a licensing system.

We will not tolerate a world of work that is becoming more brutal because of the way in which cowboy employment agencies have been allowed to operate. They are undermining dignity at work, driving down standards and creating greater insecurity for families. I endorse the comments of my noble friend Lady Donaghy in relation to the internet and so on. I apologise for not being in my place at the start of the debate. I had not anticipated that we would get through the previous statutory instruments quite so quickly.

Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Donaghy

Thursday 6th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

I ought to clarify that, as I thought I had made clear in my contribution, this is obviously a probing amendment in a way. We sought to oppose the removal of that particular paragraph, which specifies, as the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, rightly says, a particular teaching qualification. If the noble Baroness reflects on my contribution, however, she will note that we talked about a qualification—something like level 2 in English and maths.

I concur with the noble Baroness’s point. I, too, have been to FE colleges. The one that stuck in my mind was teaching painting and decorating. They said that it used to be a hopeless course until they got the current teacher in, who had run his own successful business in painting and decorating for 20 years. What he did not know about sticking a piece of paper on a wall—I say that ironically—was not worth knowing. He was an inspirational teacher, with much the same effect as that referred to by the noble Baroness.

This is in the nature of a probing amendment. My final point was to ask whether there would be any guidance and criteria. I hesitated to interrupt the noble Baroness, but I hope that that has been helpful.

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

My Lords, some noble Lords know that I spent 33 years at the University of London Institute of Education, so teacher training is in my blood. I support my noble friend on this amendment. I do not think there is any intention that we should not recognise some flexibility in the system for those who do not have a traditional academic background. I am sure that that is not what my noble friend meant.

Years ago, I was secretary to a committee of all 36 principals of teacher training colleges in the south-east of England; this was so long ago that some of them wore hats to the committee. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, also knows about a particular set of principals who were a formidable group of, mainly, women. Garnett College in the Roehampton area—the noble Baroness is nodding—trained mature entrants. It was a one-year course, mainly for technical education. To this day, I do not know why that college was closed; that was a disgrace. It gave a chance to people who did not have a traditional background. They may have come from what were in those days called the colonies. There was a great tranche of administrators and officials coming from a lot of former African colonies looking for work in their 40s and 50s. There were also ex-service personnel and others who found work as teachers and managed to get an equivalence recognition of their background and experience before they entered the course.

Even for the main Senate House, there used to be a mature entrance system for 600 people a year, who would just have to pass a basic, opening gateway course, as I think they are called now—they were not called gateway courses in those days. It admitted 600 people a year for a shortened teacher training course. Again, it was people who had experience but no traditional academic background. So it cannot be beyond the wit of man or Governments to recreate that kind of system to allow for non-traditional entrants into the system. I firmly believe that we should not go backwards on requiring teacher training of some kind. In the health service, I often chair consultant appointment panels. One of the requirements for the successful applicant is that they should have gone on some teacher training and/or some leadership skills training. We insist on such standards for our consultants so that they can teach the next generation. It would be the height of irony if we should give a hint that we do not expect certain standards from our teachers.

I hope that the Government will rethink on this, if only to get some new thinking about how we train teachers in the non-traditional subjects and the more technical subjects, and how this will fit in with the university technical colleges developed by the noble Lord, Lord Baker of Dorking. This is an extremely important pathway into those colleges and we should give some active thought to it. If we do not have the teachers trained to make those pupils fit for those technical colleges, we will be failing them at a very early age. With those words—I am delighted to see that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, is now here— I will sit down.

National Minimum Wage (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2014

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Donaghy

Monday 28th July 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as one of the members of the Low Pay Commission when it was first established in 1999. We established the first minimum wage and apprentice rate so I have kept a working knowledge of this subject throughout. The Minister said that the national minimum wage has not only kept up with average earnings but has surpassed them, and I acknowledge that. However, we have to accept that it is still a very low rate and all parties acknowledge that when the economy can afford it these figures should be substantially increased. I also acknowledge that the Government have done their best by accepting the recommendations of the Low Pay Commission. I hope that that will be the case with all future Governments and that the independent Low Pay Commission will continue and all parties will honour its recommendations.

My first point is on the impact of the minimum wage and there is an excellent sentence in the Explanatory Note, which says:

“The Commission’s recommendations are shared judgements rather than the mechanistic products of an economic model. They are strongly based in evidence and involve careful assessments of, among other things the NMW relative to median earnings and the number of jobs covered by the minimum wage”.

I emphasise this because I want to ask the Minister what further steps are being taken so that this impact is fully implemented by making sure that the minimum wage is honoured by employers. What resources are available to check up on the minimum wage implementation? Are we satisfied that we have sufficient staff to carry out the inspections and the check-in? That would be my first question, because, obviously, there will not be any real impact if employers think that they can get away without paying the minimum wage or can fiddle the hours so that there are some on the books and some off the books. We witnessed that in many employment situations, where all the books looked perfect but the workers themselves informed us that they did an extra six hours off the books for a lower rate, which took it below the minimum wage. What steps are the Government taking to make sure that that is fully followed up?

My other point concerns the Low Pay Commission itself, which said that the new Government website was insufficient to give information to people who were seeking information on low pay and the statutory national minimum wage. As we have all acknowledged, this is an independent body that we all respect. If it is saying that the revised website is insufficient and inadequate, are the Government taking steps to consult the Low Pay Commission to see whether that information can be improved, to maximise the impact of the minimum wage?

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing the regulations. We welcome the fact that the Government are accepting the recommendations of the Low Pay Commission. Over the years since 1999, despite the predictions of some of the party opposite that the national minimum wage would result in massive job losses, that has proved to be far from the truth. It has become an accepted way of partially protecting lower-paid workers from even lower wage rates. We cannot rest on our laurels, because we know that, as my noble friend Lady Donaghy said, it is still a low rate; hence the emergence in various parts of the country of a living wage, which is something that we would support. I would welcome knowing what progress the Government think should be made towards the introduction of a living wage. Although they have increased above average earnings, over a period of time there has been some decrease for workers receiving the minimum wage. If we form the next Government, we have said that we will try to ensure that the minimum wage rises faster in the next five years than it has in the recent past, as part of a national mission to tackle low pay and build a new economy with more highly skilled and highly paid jobs. Of course, as a balancing act, which we recognise, we do not want there to be a detrimental effect on jobs. Nevertheless, we think that progress can and should be made.

I have a couple of questions for the Minister, one of which reflects on the point made by my noble friend Lady Donaghy. Can the Minister update the Committee on the levels of national minimum wage enforcements by HMRC? Is the employee rights helpline receiving a greater number of complaints on the minimum wage or not? I would welcome knowing the latest figures.

I was interested in the statistic that 96% of employers think that apprenticeships are beneficial. That is the good news; the bad news is that only about 8% of employers employ apprentices. We still have a long way to go to ensure that we get more and more young people out of unemployment or, indeed, as NEETS, doing no activity at all. So there is still a long way to go. Of course, we recognise the progress made by trailblazers and their necessary inclusion as a part of national minimum wage protection. With those reservations, we support these statutory instruments, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

National Minimum Wage (Amendment) Regulations 2013

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Donaghy

Monday 15th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Donaghy]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak in the debate but I am pleased to do so now that I have heard the Minister’s explanation of the regulations.

I was a founding member of the Low Pay Commission when it was first established. We created its infrastructure and recommended the first minimum wage. The Low Pay Commission has always been thorough and has always acted on an evidence-based footing. It is fair to say—the Minister implied this—that it has always been conservative with a small “c” on the issue of youth rates and apprentice rates for the reasons he set out. It had to get the balance right between making sure that the rates were not so large as to discourage employers and not so small as to discourage apprenticeships. Therefore, the Government have got this right.

The only additional point I would make is that there is an extra challenge coming in from the side on the issue of unpaid internships, which complicates apprenticeships in many areas. It is extremely important that we support the recommendations but also bear in mind that the issue of youth rates, internships and the application of the minimum wage is becoming more and more of a grey area.

I have always maintained, and I do now, that although there were staff whose job it was to maintain the application of the minimum wage, there were never enough. I would like the Minister to respond on that. Certainly, in many areas of industry it was quite clear that there were two levels of pay—one declared and one undeclared—but the difficulty was in getting people to complain. In areas such as the textiles centre in the south-west of Birmingham, people might go to their advice centre but they would not want their name reported because they knew that they would probably never get another job in the area if they made the complaint. They worked the legitimate number of minimum wage hours but then, off the books, they would be asked to work an extra seven or eight hours and, therefore, the average made it clear that it was not any longer the statutory national minimum wage. That practice is still happening and, if anything, is probably worse.

So, in supporting the general idea—I do not want to go against the Low Pay Commission normally, but I think in this case it has acted on the side of generosity—I would ask the question about ensuring the application of the statutory national minimum wage and that the law is carried out on the ground.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I, too, in principle welcome the Government’s proposal. I am always pleased to see their conversion to supporters of the national minimum wage. As someone else remarked in another context, it was not always thus. However, it is good to see that there now seems to be an enthusiastic endorsement of both the principle and application of the national minimum wage. We do not want to be in a situation where it decreases the number of jobs. We could argue that what has a major impact on jobs and the number of jobs available is the amount of growth we can get in the economy, but I do not think that this is the right place to debate the Government’s economic strategy. However, it is well known that we do not feel they have got it right—said he with the gift of understatement.

I endorse the comments of my noble friend Lady Donaghy. The Minister referred to the importance of effective enforcement and the problem of non-compliance. Are there any statistics of the number of complaints going into either ACAS or any of the other bodies? There is an employment rights helpline and I would be interested to know what the statistics are on complaints about non-compliance with the national minimum wage.

Other than having those concerns, we endorse the proposal.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Donaghy

Monday 10th December 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, thousands of construction workers have been secretly blacklisted and denied jobs on building projects such as the London Olympics. Individuals branded as troublemakers for being members of a trade union or for raising concerns in the workplace over important issues such as health and safety had their names passed to more than 40 construction firms. In his evidence to the Scottish Affairs Select Committee last month Mr Ian Kerr, who ran the consulting association responsible for gathering the names of thousands of workers, told the committee that he went to radical bookshops and political meetings to gather information, saying:

“I would have had a file on the Socialist Workers Party. I had a file on the National Front. Any organisation that seemed to be jumping up and down about construction, it was my role to keep tabs”.

The committee heard that trade union activity, health and safety concerns or standing up for colleagues was enough to blacklist a worker, leading to work drying up. My colleague, the shadow Business Secretary, Chuka Umunna, has also raised concerns over whether blacklisting is going on for Crossrail, the new £16 billion rail network.

The construction blacklisting scandal exposed in 2009 highlighted a gap in protection for job applicants. At present, if a prospective employer accesses a blacklist or becomes aware of a job applicant’s whistleblowing history and decides not to give them a job on that basis, the applicant would have no course of action. The 2010 blacklisting regulations deal only with lists of individuals who have been involved in trade union activities. The Equality Act provides protection at the point of recruitment and we think it is vital that the right message is sent to employers that discriminating against whistleblowers at this point is unacceptable.

The amendment calls for the Public Interest Disclosure Act to be brought into line with the Equality Act 2010 and to make clear that individuals who blow the whistle will continue to have protection under the law against blacklisting by future employers on grounds that they have raised legitimate concerns over wrongdoing at previous employers. I beg to move.

[Baroness Donaghy]

My Lords, I was the author of a report on construction fatalities a couple of years ago and I spent a lot of time with both employers and employees on that issue. During the course of my report it became known that a company was keeping records of its former employees—it was in all the papers—and the trade unions concerned asked me to include something about that in my report. Although I was very sympathetic and met a number of the people involved who had been blacklisted and had not worked for years in the construction industry, I did not feel that I could put that in the report because I had to be clear what caused fatalities in the construction industry—that was my brief. You could extrapolate and say that if you prevent people reporting genuine health and safety dangers it will cause risk in the industry and is likely to cause fatalities. However, as I prepared the report in a pragmatic way and had to have absolute proof—we commissioned research on this—I did not feel that I could make any recommendations in that respect.

I met a number of what I regard as good construction employers, some of whom were embarrassed to be on the list of people who paid this company. I asked them about it and they said it was an administrative error and they did not realise that they were still paying. You have to sometimes accept in good faith what people are saying. In the past 15 years they have achieved a much better record on health and safety and it is no coincidence that health and safety was often talked about in the run-up to the Olympics. I pay tribute to the Labour Government and the continuing work of the coalition Government in making sure that there was not a single fatality on the Olympic site. It was a fantastic achievement. The good employers say that it is not only an issue of reputation: if you are hard-nosed about it and you have a fatality on site, the site will be closed for the whole day. So it is not in their interests to have an unsafe building.

I have met employers who do not have quite that view. They claim that they have a right to pay someone to find out about troublemakers and poor workers. When I put it to them that this list had been proved to be completely inaccurate—it had even got the names wrong in some cases—they would shrug their shoulders and say that it was just bad luck.

I spent a whole Saturday with a group of workers who had been blacklisted from the construction industry. To say that the effect on them was traumatic is putting it very mildly. Most of them were now working on a self-employed basis with small companies, some of them for 20 to 25 years. They had never worked for a large company. The ones who were trade union activists were probably realistic about why it had happened; they were fighting for their fellow workers and were regarded as trouble-makers, which was why they had been blacklisted. Others had no idea. They did not know why their names had been put on the list and could not understand it.

This is a very murky world and I accept that it is incredibly difficult to prove whether these lists exist. They are like will-o’-the-wisps; they move around. One company will close but they will make jolly sure that another company opens up somewhere else. It is incredibly difficult to prove. The worker himself finds it very difficult to prove. All I can say is that the impact on individuals and their families is profound. I wish that I could have done something in making recommendations in that report but it would have been dishonest of me. If there is any way that we can make life better for some of these workers who do not know why they are not being employed, I hope very much that we can do so. I support the amendment in that spirit.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Donaghy

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I remind Members of the Committee that all employment disputes are currently determined by full employment tribunals or by an employment judge sitting alone. Legal officers can be appointed under the Employment Tribunals Act but can determine cases only where the parties have agreed the terms of determination or the case has been withdrawn.

To date, no legal officers have been appointed in the employment tribunals system. Clause 10 states that legal officers should be able to determine specified types of claims where both the employee and employer have consented in writing. We welcome that aspect. However, while we support the principle of rapid resolution of disputes, we have some concerns about the proposal to permit legal officers to determine employment disputes. Legal officers currently do not receive the equivalent training to that of employment judges and may not be employment law specialists, but decisions made by a legal officer would have the same status as an employment tribunal decision. If legal officers are to determine some basic cases, it is essential that any decision can be reviewed by an employment judge or through an appeal to an employment tribunal.

The amendment therefore requires the Secretary of State and the Lord Chancellor to consult on the level of professional attainment, and the remit and mechanism for appeal, of legal officers empowered to make determinations and decisions. We see this as an important area. Although some of these cases may appear to be basic, there can indeed be complex problems underlying them. Therefore, the training and remit of legal officers are fundamentally important. I should welcome a response from the Minister. I beg to move.

[Baroness Donaghy]

I was having second thoughts on whether I should speak to this amendment because I would not really be doing so with my former ACAS hat on. However, that should not prevent me commenting.

The proposal for legal officers has been dusted down off the filing cabinet many times. I was a member of industrial tribunals, as they were then called, from 1974 to 1989, and therefore have had a long involvement on both sides of the fence on this. I am sure that the idea of legal officers was discussed in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and the noughties. In fact, the idea must be so old that it must be growing hairs like gooseberries. I congratulate the Minister on again bringing out this item from the filing cabinet. However, I should point out that that does not make it an antique worth buying.

This is intended to be a cheap way of obtaining legal services, and I suspect that the legal profession will wake up to this one quickly. I suspect that it will be disliked by employment judges; equally, there is a danger that it could second-guess the conciliation process at ACAS. Even more equally, in a time of austerity when the Government are seeking to cut the number of public servants, I should have thought that it was fairly unlikely that a whole platoon or army of these, dare I say, young law graduates or whoever will be employed by any department to do this job. And, if so, which department would it be? Will they be part of the Employment Tribunals Service, or will they be direct employees of BIS or another adjunct of the Ministry of Justice?

I am sorry that in this case I cannot be very enthusiastic but I support the amendment because I think that it may at least give some idea of government thinking on this matter. However, I give a warning that, even though this measure has been recommended many times, the devil is in the detail and the practicalities usually overcome any action on this.