Armed Forces Bill

Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts

Thursday 11th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comprehensive introduction and declare an interest as an ex-member of the Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body between 2004 and 2008. It gave me an interesting set of life experiences, including a trip to Iraq and Afghanistan and right out to the front line, including a bit of light shelling at Basra air base, which is not to be forgotten. So I am well aware of the threats, risks and dangers that our Armed Forces face. The scenarios that they operate in vary, as the challenges vary; more recently, the Ebola experience was another example of them rising to the occasion.

I take this opportunity to congratulate the maiden speakers. Unfortunately I heard only the noble Baroness, Lady Pidding. I did not hear my noble friend. I apologise for that. I had other business that I was trying to deal with at the same time. But I am sure that they will make an important contribution to the House.

I have a couple of questions for the Minister. One has been comprehensively covered. Finer legal minds than mine have been at work on the issue. The legal actions that are taking place against past and present members of the Armed Forces are—I hesitate to use the word—obscene. The entry of the no-win no-fee brigade has created an unfortunate climate. This is not the first area where we have seen this happen. It has happened in a range of other areas, including PPI and whiplash claims. It will not be an easy problem to solve, as we have heard during today’s debate, but the Bill gives us an opportunity to examine the legal challenges that face our Armed Forces and to ensure that there is fairness and that we can deal with situations where things manifestly go wrong.

I was interested in my noble friend Lady Taylor’s contribution about the role of women and instances of sexual harassment. That is an important area. More evidence has recently emerged about the unfortunate incidents at Deepcut. My noble friend mentioned culture. Changing the culture of an organisation is the hardest challenge of all. It manifestly is changing, but whether it has changed enough is the question. What can we do to ensure that the current ethos in the Armed Forces reflects current standards of behaviour? Embedding that in the way that officers and troops behave and ensuring that the training reflects them is important.

I also welcome the clause dealing with homosexuality. It made me think about one other area on which I would welcome a comment from the Minister. Are the Armed Forces equipped to deal with the complexity of transgender situations, which are emerging more and more? It is not an easy issue, but it is one that will have to be addressed.

My noble friend Lord Judd made an interesting point about the recruitment of young people at the age of 16. One of the benefits of being on the Armed Forces’ Pay Review Board is that you are taken around to meet the troops and are able to speak to them without officers present. Young people going into the Armed Forces at that age often find that it brings a structure and purpose into their lives that they have never experienced before. It makes a profound improvement. If that were all that it did, it would not be enough. Of course they have to be properly trained. The Armed Forces have excellent apprenticeship schemes. They need to ensure that they are part of that so that when they leave, instead of it being a negative, it would be a positive; we would be sending young people back into society much improved. The only other safeguard is that young people making a decision at that age need to have the right to change their mind. I feel it is necessary to make that contribution because I have met so many young people whose lives have been improved, and I wanted to end on a positive note. This has been a really interesting and fascinating debate with some profoundly important contributions. I look forward with interest to the Minister’s reply.

Armed Forces and Reserve Forces (Compensation Scheme) (Consequential Provisions: Primary Legislation) Order 2013

Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts

Monday 25th March 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I hesitate to come in on this as it is not normally an area in which I would intervene, but I declare a previous interest as an ex-member of the Armed Forces Pay Review Board. I have a couple of questions to ask the Minister. He gave the definition of “seriously injured” and then went on to say, “50% or more”. Did I understand correctly that that is what qualifies someone for this allowance? The thought occurred to me that, inevitably, it is a bit of a cliff-edge assessment. If someone got to 49.9% there could be a problem, although that may not be the case.

The other aspect that I am interested in is the fact that an impact assessment has not been prepared for this instrument. There might be a perfectly rational response to that but, given the complication and the way in which this interacts with other legislation, I should have thought that even if it is not available now, there should be an impact assessment at some time.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, this has been an interesting, short debate on a matter of great importance to the Armed Forces. I have tried to keep up with all the questions but if I cannot answer all of them I will write to noble Lords.

First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for the Opposition’s support for the order. The first question was on eligibility. As far as I am aware, the four charities from which we have had responses still differ with each other on eligibility. I have the issues on which they disagree, which are not very serious. Rather than reading them all out, I am happy to share them with the noble Lord afterwards. There is nothing of major importance. One of the main issues was on the definition of “seriously injured” in relation to the disability.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the net additional cost of AFIP. It is £134.40 per week—the same level as the maximum rate available under the personal independence payment. He asked how many people will benefit from the arrangements. Approximately 700 individuals are currently eligible to claim AFIP and we estimate that approximately 100 service and ex-service personnel each year will become eligible for it.

My noble friend Lord Addington asked whether we will feed what we have learnt from this into the issue of general benefits. I do not have an answer but I will write to him on that. The noble Lord, Lord Young, asked why the figure of 50% was chosen. The Armed Forces Compensation Scheme awards a lifelong income stream of 50% or higher of income pension for serious injury.

Putting in place provision to ensure continued support for those seriously injured while in the Armed Forces remains a key component of the military covenant. AFIP is an important change, showing the Government’s commitment to upholding the Armed Forces covenant. It is only right that we provide financial support for those most seriously injured and AFIP will do that.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

I asked why no impact assessment had been done on this instrument.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

I do not have an immediate answer but I will write to the noble Lord.

Armed Forces Bill

Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

I would like to make a short contribution to this debate and declare an interest as a former member of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body. I echo the comments of my noble friend Lady Dean because my experience was very similar. I met lots of young people whose lives were going nowhere and whose education was little or nothing. They owe a debt of gratitude to the Armed Forces for turning their lives around, giving them some education, giving them a sense of purpose in life, enabling them to work as part of a team and so on. There are therefore a lot of positive things that the Armed Forces do that we ought to pay tribute to.

I am not one of those who feel we have to apologise for recruiting people at the age of 16. Along with that right there is a responsibility and we need to make sure we get the balance right in terms of vocational training. If we tried to propel all these people down the A-level route, it would not fill them with glee. Getting the right balance of practical vocational training along with accredited educational achievements is something they would aspire to. Some of them will go on and a lot of latent talent will emerge.

Along with the right to recruit people at that age, there is also a responsibility. The question of informed consent exercises a number of us. When they reach the age of 18, or just before, as suggested under my noble friend Lord Rosser’s Amendment 22, there ought to be a proactive process within the Armed Forces whereby they contact the young person concerned, make them aware of what stage they are at, and help them to make an informed decision.

My last point is that the Armed Forces do great things. My noble friend Lady Dean pointed out that when young people are part of the Armed Forces, they have a sense of direction and know where they are. Unfortunately, we know that when people leave the Armed Forces they no longer have the comfort of being part of the organisation, so the point about getting resettlement right for those who decide they do not want to stay in the Armed Forces any longer is an important one.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, before I respond to these amendments, I should declare two interests—one as President of the Council of Reserve Forces’ and Cadets’ Associations and the other as Colonel Commandant of the Yeomanry.

The amendments in this group all deal with the matter of under-18s serving in the Armed Forces. I welcome the efforts of noble Lords in reminding us that the welfare of those who join under the age of 18 is very important indeed and I thank all those who have moved amendments and spoken today. I can assure your Lordships that the Ministry of Defence is well aware of the need to ensure that these young people live and work in an environment which safeguards their interests and wellbeing, and I thank in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, and the noble Lord, Lord Young, for their helpful and positive comments to this effect. I welcome the suggestion of the noble Baroness, Lady Dean. Things have been improving and will continue to improve, but we can always do better.

A great deal of close attention has been focused on this whole area in recent years, especially after the tragic deaths at Deepcut. We now have robust and effective safeguards in place to ensure that under-18s are cared for properly. Moreover, as the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, suggested and I can confirm, no service person under the age of 18 is to be deployed on any operation which will result in them becoming engaged in or exposed to hostilities. And recently we announced a change to the right of discharge for those under the age of 18. I shall come back to this in a moment.

Through Amendment 6, the noble Lord, Lord Judd, seeks to include service personnel under the age of 18 as being within the group covered by the Armed Forces covenant report, which is a laudable objective. However, the guidance accompanying the Armed Forces covenant, which we published on 16 May, is quite explicit. It states that:

“Special account must be taken of the needs of those under 18 years of age”.

I can assure noble Lords that we will not forget this aspect of our responsibilities for service personnel. The Armed Forces covenant report is to be a report about the effects of service on servicepeople, so as regards Amendment 6, minors under the age of 18 are already within the definition of servicepeople in the clause. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that.

As regards Amendment 8, I have some difficulty with the wording proposed. Not only would the amendment require the Secretary of State to give particular consideration every year to the effects of service on those under 18 years of age, it would also require him to have particular regard to those effects right through until the individuals in question became veterans. It would oblige us to treat those who joined under the age of 18 as a separate category throughout their service, and perhaps even throughout their lives. I hope it will be apparent to noble Lords that that is not an appropriate distinction to build into legislation.

I turn now to Amendment 22, spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. This provides that service personnel under the age of 18 will be required to confirm in writing that they wish to continue serving in the Armed Forces after their 18th birthday. This must be done at least three months before their birthday. As noble Lords will know, it has long been our policy to enable service personnel under the age of 18 to reconsider their choice of a career in the Armed Forces up until their 18th birthday, and indeed for three months afterwards if they have already declared their unhappiness. To that effect, we are travelling in the same direction as the noble Lord. In fact, these informal arrangements have provided our under-18s with six months more to think about whether they have made the right choice of career than would the amendment. But following a review of our discharge policy for the under-18s, this has been converted into a legal right. A regulation was introduced on 12 July this year for each of the Armed Forces to provide a new statutory right for all service personnel to claim discharge up to their 18th birthday. This new regulation is separate from and additional to the long-standing legal right of all new recruits, regardless of age, to discharge within their first three to six months of service, depending on their service, if they decide that serving in the Armed Forces is not a career for them.

Under the new regulation, everyone under the age of 18 serving in the Armed Forces already has a right to claim discharge up to their 18th birthday. For the first six months of service this is achieved by giving not less than 14 days’ notice in writing to their commanding officer after an initial period of 28 days’ service. At any other time after six months’ service, those under the age of 18 who wish to leave their service must give notice in writing to their commanding officer, who must then discharge the under-18 within the next three months. For those who give notice just prior to their 18th birthday, this means that the latest they will be discharged is at 18 years and three months of age.

The new right of discharge includes a cooling-off period to avoid the unintended consequence of a decision made in the heat of the moment. A shorter period may be agreed with the commanding officer, but three months provides the serviceperson under 18 with a period of due reflection, with appropriate guidance and the right to rescind their request for discharge. The amendment proposed by the noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Tunnicliffe, adds no protection for those under 18 who are serving, and would put a staffing burden on the chain of command that I hope they will accept is unnecessary. The right of discharge is made clear to all service personnel on joining the Armed Forces. We wish to continue to ensure that those young men and women who wish to serve in the Armed Forces are able to do so, while those who realise that a service career is not for them can leave as a right. On this basis, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, will withdraw his amendment.