Queen’s Speech

Lord Woolf Excerpts

Thursday 12th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

My Lords, I am the latest in what I will call the pack of former senior judges who have addressed this debate. I do not propose to do more than to indicate that I agree with everything that they said. On those subjects, I have nothing to usefully add.

However, I feel that I should also mention just one or two of the other speakers who are not members of the pack, but who have also made contributions. I specifically endorse what was so ably said by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester about a subject very close to my heart: overindulgence in the use of prisons. On that subject, we also heard from the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and I particularly thank him for what he had to say throughout his period as Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Prisons. Ever since, he has been magnificent in the way he has fought for a very important cause.

The next person I wish to thank is the person who came to the help of the profession. I am referring to the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. As she explained, at the present the time the legal profession has real concerns about its position. The action it has taken is unprecedented so far as I know during my career in the law. I believe it was taken only after it was felt that unless it took action that was inconsistent with the normal practice of the Bar, it would never see the redress that is needed to try to deal with the problems of legal aid and fees for those appearing in the criminal justice system. Criminal justice is extraordinarily important to this country, and our reputation with regard to the quality of the justice we provide is the highest. It would not be of that high level if it were not for the quality of those who do not go in for highly paid work in the commercial field but instead devote their skills to the great difficulty of ensuring the defence of those who are charged, whether correctly or not, with criminal offences. I strongly urge the Government to seek the first possible opportunity to assist in resolving that problem.

One of the great things about our legal profession so far as my experience goes—it is long experience, but not necessarily as wide as I would like—is that most of the time, the relationship between the profession and the Government has been cordial and appropriate. That should be maintained, because more can be achieved in improving the quality of the justice provided in a period when relations are cordial than when another situation exists.

Finally, I shall mention just one matter in order to assist a noble Lord who fell into the difficulty I fell into on a recent occasion. If you do not turn up in time for the opening of a debate, whether you have a good excuse or not, and whether you have caused any inconvenience or not, your name as a speaker is removed and no matter how strongly you protest, you cannot get it restored. If that person had spoken, he would have urged those responsible for the consultation on the Government’s proposal for a modern Bill of Rights to publish a report on the consultation before the introduction of the proposed Bill.

Law Enforcement: Brexit Impacts

Lord Woolf Excerpts

Wednesday 6th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I can confirm that the arrangements will allow for the UK’s continued co-operation with Europol. In terms of Eurojust, they ensure that UK and EU investigators can continue to share information and evidence, agree strategies and co-ordinate activity to tackle cross-border criminality.

[Lord Woolf (CB) [V]]

Could the Minister tell me how she will ensure that the new arrangements, which are obviously welcome, are working efficiently and not leading to delays that will hamper the workings of the criminal justice system in this country?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

There will be continued scrutiny of the effectiveness of the new arrangements. The noble and learned Lord is right that these things need to be swift and efficient but, as I said in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Marks, they also need safeguards built into them. I have every confidence that the new arrangements will work well.

Public Order

Lord Woolf Excerpts

Tuesday 9th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with my noble friend that what we saw on Sunday was a symptom of the frustration that people feel about racism, both overt and covert, within our country. We need more diversity in the workplace, in Parliament and in all sorts of areas of life. My noble friend will have heard the Prime Minister addressing the public yesterday about this and talking about how across government we need to drive this out. This is not about one particular department of government or one particular individual; it is about a public collective in terms of driving this sort of poison out of our society.

[Lord Woolf (CB) [V]]

I have listened to what has been said in the House so far and read the debate that took place after the Statement that was made yesterday in the Commons. I acknowledge the balanced approach that Members of Parliament are taking to the very real problem that has arisen here. Does the Minister agree that what has been said about what happened indicates problems in relation to the rule of law, which is so important to uphold in order to induce a sense of fairness? Is it not also clear regarding some of the problems that exist, not only the matters that we are considering today but also Windrush, that it is time that more resources were made available to the criminal justice system as a whole and that a long-term report, perhaps by a royal commission, needs to be done into the criminal justice system generally so as to improve the sense of fairness?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think the noble and learned Lord is right about the balanced approach and the importance of the rule of law. I respect those who very peacefully protested on Sunday, but of course that was completely undermined by those who just flouted the rule of law and those who put other people at risk of the virus when we are going through quite a critical stage in in trying to wipe it out. The noble and learned Lord talks about more resources for the criminal justice system. From a Home Office point of view, our ambition to recruit an extra 20,000 police officers over the next few years is well on track to be delivered. I hope that, as he says, the whole fairness of the criminal justice system will lead to a public feeling of a more fair and equal society.

Windrush Compensation Scheme

Lord Woolf Excerpts

Wednesday 6th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

Yes, you have me. I apologise, but the system went down. I welcome this debate and am delighted to take part. I refer to my entries in the register, which include my membership of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, chaired so well by the right honourable Harriet Harman. I also acknowledge the help I received from the excellent Library briefing for this debate.

The finding of the Joint Committee on the Windrush generation makes very sad reading, as confirmed by the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin. When something goes wrong in a society, it is very important that the society not only acknowledges that this has happened but makes sure that it is redeemed, in so far as that is possible. There are times when any Government can depart from the standards that the rule of law requires. I hope that the Minister will accept without reservation that this is such an occasion. If so, the state is under a clear obligation to remedy the situation. In doing so, it should adopt a generous and open approach.

Sadly, although the Government appeared initially to be adopting the correct approach, they have departed from it. It is worrying that the question of compensation has not been dealt with expeditiously. I cannot believe that more claims would not have been concluded if the Home Office had shown greater flexibility. I can understand why the former shadow Home Secretary said:

“The amount and the quantity of the payments are pitifully small”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/2/20; col. 626.]

I agree with Wendy Williams that a more personalised and sensitive approach to claimants should have been adopted. Even with my experience many years ago of acting in the courts for most government departments for five years, it takes my breath away that the Home Office, having failed to make or conserve any records, tries to rely on the inadequacy of the Windrush claimants’ efforts to produce records and establish the right to citizenship given to them by the Immigration Act 1971. Then, for a time at any rate, the Home Office turned on its head the burden of proof. A more appropriate approach would have been to give the claimants the benefit of any reasonable doubt. That is what should be done. It is not necessary for representation; what is needed for justice to be done to the claimants has not happened yet.

Orgreave

Lord Woolf Excerpts

Tuesday 1st November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, this is a very serious decision and I hope that in no way does anyone feel that this decision has been politicised. Transparency is at the heart of the process; that is why the Home Secretary has taken so much time to look at various documents in carefully considering her conclusion.

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Home Secretary on taking this decision. I have over the years observed the increasing frequency of automatically setting up an inquiry when a difficult problem arises. Inquiries are not always the best way of looking into matters. As the years go by, they certainly become more and more expensive for investigating events and less and less successful in coming to the right conclusion.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble and learned Lord is absolutely right. An inquiry is not of itself the answer to everything. Inquiries must be used only very carefully and in certain circumstances. The Orgreave situation resulted in no deaths or wrongful convictions. There have been significant changes in the police at every level since 1984. Therefore, as the noble and learned Lord said, establishing any kind of inquiry is not required in the public interest.

Crime: Religiously Motivated Crime

Lord Woolf Excerpts

Thursday 21st April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

First, let me put on record that every religious community, including the Muslim community, was appalled by the events we saw in Scotland. This is exactly what is required: for the whole country, no matter what your religion or if you are of no faith, to come together to condemn and then unify against extremism in all its ugly guises. I assure the noble Lord that we are speaking extensively to all faith communities, including Muslim communities. There are initiatives such as the Prime Minister’s direct community round tables, on which the Home Secretary is leading. I am talking directly to all faith communities. Most recently I have met other and wider Muslim organisations, including the Bradford Council for Mosques, and earlier this week the Lancashire Council of Mosques and the Bolton Council of Mosques, to discuss the rising tide not just of the challenges we are facing but of Islamophobia and anti-Muslim hatred as well.

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

My Lords, I disclose my interest as a patron of the Woolf Institute for interfaith relations. Does the Minister agree that an important antidote to race hate is education and that we should support all means of educating the public at large in the way that faiths can interrelate?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I totally agree with the noble and learned Lord’s sentiments.

Asylum Support (Amendment No. 3) Regulations 2015

Lord Woolf Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

My Lords, I contribute to this debate as somebody from Bristol, which is a city of sanctuary. Bristol has a proud record of having many volunteers, who welcome asylum seekers and refugees. I take an interest in many of these organisations. Visiting them recently, I was made aware of just how bad things have become for asylum seekers and refugees. Over recent years, these people depend more and more on volunteers for essential services as cuts hit local government. English language learning has been cut systematically. On the one hand, we say we would like these people to learn English, yet the service is constantly cut. Volunteers are now delivering food bags to people every week. Volunteers are providing legal aid because that has been cut too. I heard one person say last week, “I have worked in this organisation for a long time and I never really thought I would have to look at providing free nappies and raising sponsorship from the private sector to provide essential goods for these people”. So it is not just about these regulations, which I believe penalise the most vulnerable in our society, but against a background of continuous cuts to services for these people.

This country has a proud record of welcoming refugees. Many of our most successful people have come from immigrant families. We are talking about children, who have no say in what happens to them. They did not choose to be born in Syria or Eritrea. They did not choose to move. They have no voice, and we have spoken this week about democracy, accountability and the rights of the people of this country. It seems to me that the regulations we are discussing are absolutely and totally damaging to the rights of children, who are among the most vulnerable in our society.

We have heard about the effect on diet. Many of these people cannot afford to buy proper, fresh food. On the one hand, public agencies tell us we should have a healthy diet, and how we should bring up our children and avoid disease. Yet there is one rule for our children and another rule for other people’s children. We hear that they cannot afford essential living items. My colleague spoke about the ridiculous amount paid for shoes, and the fact that children grow. Their shoes may not even wear out, but they have to be replaced. We hear that the cost of travel in many of our cities is absolutely punishing, so many of these people, when they try to get advice from volunteers about their legal position, are prevented from doing so because they cannot afford to eat and to pay the travel costs.

I believe we can do better than that. I believe that some of the judgments in these regulations are arbitrary and not based on proper information. I would like the Government and all of us to feel that we could work with the agencies that provide these services and arrive at something acceptable that gives respect and allows our children, and the children of other people, to have the same protection, the same rights, the same democracy and the same civilised country that I believe we have. They do not have it at the moment and I believe they must. So I will support the Motion and I hope we get support for that.

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

When the Minister replies to this debate, which I have found extraordinarily disturbing, I hope he will deal with the situation created by the High Court’s decision that has a direct bearing on the facts of this case. I would like him to ask himself whether, as a Minister of the Crown, he can say that the situation revealed in the argument before us is one which does or does not comply with the standards set in that judgment. I understand it was not appealed. If the standards do not begin to meet the standards indicated in that judgment, does he agree that this situation reveals deeply disturbing breaches of the rule of law? I am very sad to feel that that could happen in this jurisdiction.

Immigration: Detention

Lord Woolf Excerpts

Thursday 26th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

My Lords, today is a bitter-sweet occasion. It is always a great pleasure to follow my noble and learned friend Lord Lloyd of Berwick, but this occasion is bitter because it is probably the last occasion on which I will be able to follow him—certainly so far as this House is concerned, because of the reasons he has given.

I followed him in becoming a member of the Inner Temple when I was just starting out on my practice. I followed him to the Bench and we have been together in the Court of Appeal, the Judicial Committee of the House of Lords and on a number of occasions in this Chamber. I well remember being led by him at the Bar when we were appearing on behalf of the Government. He is a consummate advocate, so this has always been a most rewarding experience, not least because of the extraordinary rapidity with which he could absorb the issues in a case and the skill with which he could advance arguments in favour of that case—skills which are well known to this House.

In particular, I remember—I do not know whether he will—one occasion when I had to tell him, on the journey from his chambers in the Temple to the Court of Appeal, about the case that he was going to be opening in the Court of Appeal. He opened the case with such eloquence and skill that no one present would have realised that he had been told about it in only a short amount of time.

There was another case in which we were involved when we were not on the same side. I know that he remembers it because it gives him particular pleasure. The case proceeded from the Divisional Court, where I won, to the Court of Appeal, where he won. I knew that I was in need of help, having lost in the Court of Appeal, and I was able to have as a leader Lord Bingham of Cornhill, who of course was known to many in this House. Even with Lord Bingham’s help, I have to admit that I lost in the House of Lords and my noble and learned friend Lord Lloyd was successful. It is now a reported case—a case of some significance in administrative law. The grammar schools in the Thameside area were going to become comprehensive. It was particularly important that the results of the case should be known promptly because of course the pupils at the grammar schools wanted to know what was going to happen. So we sat not only on a Friday but, uniquely, I think, on a Saturday, and we got a very early decision. As noble Lords will know, those pupils continued to go to their schools, whereas the Minister thought that they should certainly have gone to the comprehensive.

It is no surprise to me that my noble and learned friend, in the matter presently before the House, should take the view that he has. He has indicated in what he has said to your Lordships today a fact which is undoubtedly true—that he is deeply concerned with the doing of justice and fairness, and nothing is more likely to call him to arms than to be involved in such a situation.

One of the things that my noble and learned friend is remembered for is when he became a High Court judge. He was a commercial lawyer and I do not think he ever appeared before a jury during his practice at the Bar. However, on being appointed as a High Court judge he was to be dispatched to Liverpool to try a murder case. He showed commendable courage for a new judge by knocking on the door of the then Lord Chief Justice—no less formidable a figure than Lord Widgery—and insisting on receiving instruction on the arts of dealing with a jury trial before hearing the case. As a consequence, I think that he was the first High Court judge who after appointment was seen being instructed in the arts of jury trials at the Old Bailey by those who appeared in the courts where that was happening. In due course he became a great criminal judge as well. It is as a result of my noble and learned friend’s bold action that we now have a really significant and well developed Judicial Studies Board. Judges do not know instinctively how to try cases, they have to learn.

The issue on which we are engaged today is appropriate for my noble and learned friend to advocate because of his membership of the panel. With regard to that, it is clear that some restriction needs to be put on the period of detention. I encourage the House to accede to what my noble and learned friend has said, notwithstanding the fact that normally I would not be in favour of fixed time periods because they can be instruments of injustice as well as justice, and because it is better usually to leave it to the matter of discretion. But in the special circumstances of this situation, I ask noble Lords to say that that is the course that the House should follow as well. We can argue about the period—that is a very simple issue—but I am sure it is right that there should be a limit.

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Lord Woolf Excerpts

Monday 2nd February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, at the last stage I supported the noble and learned Lord. I had not thought it would be appropriate to come in at this stage because I had to deal with something else while remaining in the Chamber, so I was not able completely to concentrate on what he said. However, as one of those who, I suppose, must be regarded as having danced the most during the earliest part of this afternoon, I reaffirm my support. I trust the courts to take a proper attitude to the issues which come before them, which is what this amendment is about.

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

Before the Minister rises, I will just say that, as I understand what is proposed by my noble and learned friend Lord Brown, he is not saying that the courts’ powers should be in any way unusual. This is really giving them an ordinary responsibility within the scope of judicial review as I have always understood it.

[Lord Bates]

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for moving the amendment. I was conscious of disagreeing with only one element of what my noble friend Lord Howard said. He said that he was going to disturb the tranquillity of the proceedings. From the perspective of the Government Whips’ Office and of Ministers, tranquillity is quite a sublime quality in debate on these matters. These matters evoke strong feelings on all sides of the House. My noble friend Lord Tebbit brought home from his personal experience the point that we are dealing with real threats to real lives. That is the ultimate threat to liberty that we are seeking to legislate for in the Bill before us.

I said that I would reflect on the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, last week, as I took it as seeking clarification. I was grateful to him for the time which he gave me, my officials and the legal team from the department in reviewing this matter. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Howard, put so succinctly, this is a matter of principle. It is a well observed principle that, in the realm of national security, the Executive have ultimate power, responsibility and accountability. That is the way that it has been, whether it is in relation to exercising royal prerogative over passports, temporary exclusion orders, interception of communications, excluding foreign nationals or deprivation of citizenship for those with dual nationality —I could go on. The principle is this: when it comes to national security, the Executive have to take the responsibility. That is an onerous responsibility to take. It is also entirely right, as the Bill provides for, that there should be an ability to challenge such a decision of the Secretary of State by way of judicial review and the courts.

I promised the noble and learned Lord that I would seek to put some additional words on the record which might give him some comfort. They are in relation to the technical legal point that he touched on, as did the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, but they do not seek to move away from the fundamental grounds on which the Government are resisting this amendment, that of not wanting to sacrifice the principle that it is the Secretary of State who should decide.

As part of the review of the TPIMs imposed in the cases of CC and CF, their legal representatives argued that in TPIM cases the reasonable belief test,

“requires that at least the foundation of past facts upon which the belief is predicated must be proved on the balance of probabilities”.

As part of Lord Justice Lloyd Jones’s consideration, he applied Judge Collins’s judgment in the case of BM, who said that,

“to found a reasonable belief that a subject is or has been involved in TRA”—

that is, terrorist related activities—

“and that a TPIM is necessary does not involve the requirement to establish involvement in specific TRA to any higher standard than that which can properly give rise to such a belief. No doubt some facts which go to forming the belief will be clearly established, others may be based on an assessment of the various pieces of evidence available. But there is certainly no requirement that particular TRA needs to be established to the standard of at least more probable than not”.

Based on this precedent, we expect that the courts will see the balance of probabilities as a higher standard and that this will impact on their consideration.

As the noble and learned Lord will be aware, the court will also seek to interpret the difference in wording, as it is entitled to do. His amendments seek to differentiate between the test which the Home Secretary is required to apply and that which the court is to apply. Given her remit in relation to a range of aspects of terrorism, the Home Secretary remains best placed to make a holistic decision to impose a TPIM notice in order to protect the public from terrorism. The Government hold firm to that principle, which has had cross-party support. I express my gratitude to my noble friends who have spoken against the amendment, I hope that, with that additional explanation, the noble and learned Lord will see why the Government take the position that they do and will not be able to support the amendment if it is pressed.

Immigration Bill

Lord Woolf Excerpts

Tuesday 6th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, my noble and learned friend responded extremely speedily to my bank holiday inquiry, and I am grateful to him for that. The points about whether consent should be required for the tribunal to consider a new matter have been covered quite thoroughly, but I would like to mention the question of guidance. I was curious that this is guidance, because it must be guidance by the Home Office, and therefore the Home Secretary, to the Home Secretary. I would have understood had it been called a code of practice. The title does not really matter: it is the content. I wonder whether there is any distinction between the two.

Having seen the letter to the noble Baroness of 29 April, it seems to me that the way the guidance is described comes quite close to the exercise of discretion. I am aware that I have not put a question mark at the end of any of that, but I felt that I wanted to make those points.

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

My Lords, may I be forgiven if, despite my discourtesy in not being here earlier, I say a few words on this matter? It is very important, not only for the principles that noble Lords have clearly expressed already, but purely from a practical point. I urge the Government to think again about this, based on the experience of dealing with immigration cases for the majority of my career in the legal profession. The repeated use of the justice system to obtain delay was always a problem. I understand the motivation of the Government all too well, but that does not justify the departure from principle about which we have heard.

However, this is the point that I am most anxious to make. In reality, if the first tribunal before whom this matter is happening does not have the power to say what the procedure will be, that will create a lacuna which will be exploited more and more frequently by those who realise that they just need to make a new point and the Government’s representative will have to ask for adjournments so that he or she can take instructions on what action to take. Not only is this wrong in principle, it will create an undesirable position. Although it is not intended, it will undermine the status of those who adjudicate on these matters. More and more immigration matters are now being dealt with outside the High Court, so we should not be undermining that status but supporting it.

I urge the Government to take this away again. I do not think that they have met either the problems of principle that were raised on the last occasion that this was discussed or, more importantly perhaps, the practicalities of sitting on a tribunal and having to deal with applications. As an adjudicator, if you are in doubt about the right course to take, of course you can always adjourn. Most legal systems are plagued by unnecessary adjournments. In my view, what the Government are creating here is unnecessary scope for adjournments. Even if there is just the ability to make applications—you can never stop them—they will result in adjournments, which I would have thought is the last thing the Home Office wants.