Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Winston and Baroness Hollins

Committee stage
Friday 21st November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

I thank the noble Baroness. I thought about that, and it could indeed be brought back in a different way later in the debate, but I feel that the prevention of coercion is really important, so thinking about it at this stage is really helpful.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to ask this question of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, but it applies also to the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge: she mentioned various things that are cited as causing pressure, but does she not agree that being in palliative care also causes pressure?

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

There is no suggestion in anything that I have said of imposing palliative care—none at all. I have listened to the debate, and I was not going to speak personally but I will now, since the noble Lord has challenged me on that. My husband was dying with motor neurone disease last year. He felt under immense pressure from this debate in the House of Commons, the other place. He found it very difficult. It made him ask questions, such as, “Am I still entitled to palliative care? Am I really entitled at a time when the NHS is so short of staff and short of time?” He worried about that, and I had to offer him a lot of reassurance so that he could make his own decision. He was not ready to die. The idea that offering palliative care applies pressure is really not to understand the whole nature of the dying process and the way in which, as we come to realise that our life is coming to an end, we need time to understand, reflect, heal and make sense. The pressure not to be a burden is huge, and the pressure of not having access to services that are in short supply is much worse.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

I do not wish to extend this conversation but, given what the noble Baroness has said, can she explain why in Australia—I am sorry, in New Zealand—where there is very good palliative care, three-quarters of the people requesting assisted dying, something like 2,000 patients, had been in palliative care at the time of the request?

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Winston and Baroness Hollins

Monday 7th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hollins]

Perhaps I may raise a couple of issues that have been touched upon. The first is that I do not know how far the consultation that is looking at the duty of candour will tease out the role played by whistleblowing. I should like some clarification about that.

The General Medical Council’s document, Good Medical Practice, in paragraph 31, makes it clear that doctors must be honest and open and act with integrity. I mention that because my noble friend Lord Walton spoke about the GMC’s role and said that he was not sure how far the medical defence unions currently adopt the same approach to encourage doctors, when they are aware of an error, to be open and honest. I decided to telephone my medical defence union before this debate and ask it for its current advice. It said that it refers doctors to Good Medical Practice and reminds them of paragraph 31, which states that they must be honest and open and act with integrity. I hope that the House will be reassured to hear that.

In my experience, a culture of openness and honesty leads to a culture of learning. That point has been made by a number of noble Lords. We should not be afraid of the idea that apologising will in some way lead to a greater culture of litigation. It is certainly my experience that being open and apologising does not necessarily imply negligence; it reflects the fact that something harmful has happened and that the lessons from mistakes must be learnt from in order that other people will not be harmed by the same mistakes in the future. That is what this is really about.

[Lord Winston]

Does the noble Baroness not agree with me, however, that this is not what this is about? The problem is that any persons providing healthcare—someone who is seeing a patient but is not concerned with the original treatment—would be required to be open and candid. The problem with that is that it is likely to be highly dangerous and damaging to patients in that situation, as extensive medical experience over many years has shown to the many people trying to do an honest and open job within the health service. The matters of each case have to be looked at on an individual basis.

[Baroness Hollins]

I absolutely agree with the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Winston. Commenting on another practitioner’s practice and making judgments is fraught with error. That is why it is important when looking at the duty of candour to understand the role that whistleblowing plays. A great deal more could be said but it is extremely dangerous to make assumptions about another person’s practice.