Children and Social Work Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wills and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Monday 11th July 2016 Grand Committee

[Lord Wills]

My Lords, I will not delay the Minister’s response very long. I want to say a few words in support of Amendment 131, to which I have added my name.

I recognise that there is widespread unease about Clause 15. All the noble Lords who have spoken so far have reflected that. The Minister will be aware that there is unease outside your Lordships’ House as well. I recognise that innovation can be crucial to the improvement of public services and I suspect, although I hope to be proved wrong, that the Government will not be unduly swayed by all the compelling arguments that we have heard against the clause. That is why Amendment 131 is important. Innovation, as other noble Lords have said, should not be at the expense of appropriate safeguards for those whom it is designed to help. Although I understand the Government’s intention—to promote new ways of working—as we have heard over and over again, as currently drafted the Bill does not offer adequate protections for those young people against failures in innovation. Amendment 131 aims to help to do so by placing a duty on the Secretary of State to,

“consult children in care, those representing children in care, and care leavers in their area before making a decision to grant an exemption or make modifications under subsection (2)”.

Innovation may be positive from the perspective of the local authority but it will not necessarily be positive from that of the young people affected by it. Children in care and care leavers have been let down by the system for so long that they have earned the right to have their views heard about changes to it. If any changes are to be successful, it is crucial that they are heard. These young people know better than anyone how the system works for them. That is one good reason why Article 12 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child stipulates that, when adults make decisions affecting children, children have the right for their opinions to be taken into account.

The amendment also provides for new, independent scrutiny arrangements and a duty on both the local authority and the Secretary of State to consult children in care and care leavers when a local authority applies for an exemption from the requirements of social care legislation. At Second Reading, the Minister was reassuring about scrutiny arrangements, but I ask him to consider carefully the merits of a new, independent body. Existing organisations all come with their existing viewpoints, cultures and histories—in other words, they come with baggage. The proposed change in Clause 15 is potentially so radical and could have such a dramatic effect on the lives of young people, who already face such huge challenges, that I believe it is important that any organisation scrutinising such arrangements should be dedicated to doing so. It should be able to adopt fresh perspectives and develop specific expertise, which a new scrutiny organisation will be able to do in a way that existing organisations may well not. From his response at Second Reading, I suspect that the Minister is not minded to do this but I hope that he is open to persuasion on that point.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I want to ask a very specific question. Could an exemption of the kind envisaged in the amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, occur under Clause 15?

Queen’s Speech

Debate between Lord Wills and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Thursday 10th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I am saying that the legislation needs to have a reason behind it. It is all very well to legislate, and I know that from time to time we see legislation which some of us think does not have much reason behind it, but on the whole we regard it as rather important that legislation which reaches our statute book should be grounded in reason. If the democratic mandate is the same for both Houses, it is difficult to see a reason for distinguishing between their democratic authority.

[Lord Wills]

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for giving way. Is it not possible to conceive of a democratic mandate for a revising and scrutinising Chamber? That is precisely the reason for it. It is not necessarily an inferior role, just a different role. That is what needs to be placed in the legislation. I think that most noble Lords who have spoken so far agree with that.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

That is tantamount to asking that the second Chamber be elected not to exercise full democratic authority but to have the authority only to do certain restricted things. That is not exactly an issue although it is certainly a possibility. I have never stood for election on the basis that we are discussing so I do not speak from great experience. However, I think that it must be a little difficult to stand for election if your election would result in your having very restricted authority. One could say, “My policies will not matter tuppence because the policies will be determined by the other electorate”. Such an outcome is possible in theory but would be difficult in practice. This issue has to be faced at some point and dealt with either by restricting the authority of those elected to the second Chamber in some way or by some other method. The other method one could use is that of introducing arbitration between the two Chambers, which has been hinted at in previous speeches. This is the absolutely fundamental and central point and has to be dealt with before we seek consensus when we are not sure what the consensus is supposed to be about.