EU: Prime Minister’s Speech

Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts

Thursday 31st January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

My Lords, I declare an interest, which is in the register. I want to say one word first about the exercise on the balance of competencies currently being worked on by practically all government departments. Evidence and opinions have been called for in a wide consultation, with a deadline of 28 February for sectors including foreign policy, the internal market and animal health and welfare. This seems to me to be a valuable initiative and highly relevant to the negotiations foreseen in the Prime Minister’s speech, for which it will provide raw material. It is also highly relevant to the question of whether the principle of subsidiarity is being respected, which will no doubt feature in any future settlement or negotiation. Is subsidiarity being respected? We may doubt it.

In his speech the Prime Minister called for “fundamental, far-reaching change”, and the next Conservative manifesto will ask for a mandate from the British people for a Conservative Government, if elected, to negotiate a new settlement with a view to an “in or out” referendum. The Prime Minister states that power must be able to flow back to member states. He wants an EU that is competitive, flexible and fair—don’t we all? Of course, we cannot set out our priorities in detail now because we have to probe the opinions of other member states. In particular, we need to assess whether our priorities are more likely to be achieved by opt-outs or by decisions of the member states as a whole—that some issues could now be left to them. I think that there may some possibilities by the second route. Although a referendum of the British people provides the essential reassurance it is also legitimate to question how the end game will turn out. There could be much dispute on whether the result was good enough, which will make it difficult for the British people to take a clear-cut position on the referendum.

Finally, it is extremely important that we have a better and fairer presentation of European issues to the public, which is not always the case now. I can think of many cases in the media almost every day. Where do we go from here? Forwards, I hope, but I commend an opinion poll in last week’s Sunday Express which showed that 63% of the public considered that the EU issue was a distraction from the real concerns about the economy as a whole and a great majority thought that the United Kingdom would be in the European Union in 10 years’ time. That sounds like the voice of the British people.

European Union: Recent Developments

Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

My Lords, I declare an interest in that I spent a good part of my career in the British public service on European affairs and some part of it in the European Commission. I am sure that the Minister will agree with me that the wisdom of ancient China sometimes has a lesson for us today. For example, on the current soul-searching about the economic state of the eurozone, I have in mind the phrase in the Tao Te Ching, written many centuries ago:

“I let go of economics, and people become prosperous”.

Of course, I shall say a little about the economics of the eurozone and about the course that, in my view, the United Kingdom should steer in consequence. However, I also want to let go a little of economics and say something about other developments in the European Union, which risk being forgotten but which can help people to become prosperous.

I begin with the economic situation in the EU. It is always important to keep in mind that the EU is the world’s largest single market and is an economic zone larger than that of the USA and Japan combined, with a total GDP of around £11 trillion. This single market of 500 million people—I am very glad to see that it is about to be increased, by the Bill that is before us today on the accession of Croatia, to over 500 million, which I very much support—provides a relatively level playing field for British business to trade in without customs duties and tariffs and with a common set of rules that avoids 27 different sets of regulations in the member states. Of course, if the UK had a different relationship with the rest of the EU, the single market would not vanish away. But what we should do now is to clock up the single market on the plus side of membership and ensure that any future developments, particularly in the area of financial services, remain open and favourable to the UK and, importantly, that we maintain the capacity to influence them.

I am always amazed how quickly people have forgotten what trade and travel was like before UK membership of the EU. In that protectionist world, now long since vanished, when I was first living on the continent, a kind friend sent me an English cheese. However, by the time I had got through all the hurdles to get it out of customs, it had gone completely bad. That was a mouldy cheese and a mouldy system, but the introduction of the single market was marked by the biggest bonfire of forms and regulations in European history.

Now in the eurozone we have the inflexibility of the single currency and, at the same time, the two principal problems damaging the economic performance of the euro member states. First, there is the continuing fallout of the great big recession made in the USA, which brought down important banks and financial institutions or made it necessary for Governments, including our Government, to bail them out with public money. At the heart of all this was the taking of excessive risks by the private sector—for example, sub-prime mortgages in the US, but actually far more widely than that—notably excessive optimism regarding demand for new housing, so clearly visible on the ground in Spain today. This is, of course, the origin of the recuperative measures under way in both the UK and the eurozone, including more effective measures against risk and greater monitoring of banks and other financial institutions. As we have heard from the latest European Council, our situation now, as a non-member of the eurozone, is that we do not participate in the so-called banking union, but there will still be some consequences. This remains important for us, particularly the need to ensure that the voting rules in the European Banking Authority give us adequate protection. I assume that branches of British banks in the eurozone, if large enough, would be covered by the banking union.

The proposals for safeguarding banks in the Commission’s document of June 2012 seem quite straightforward and in some respects reflect our own banking legislation. These proposals cover the power to plan for, and preferably prevent, the possible failure of a financial institution, including the drafting in, if necessary, of a special manager. That has been dealt with at this most recent European Council and I believe that it is going to go forward. The second half of the document deals with insolvency and resolution powers, including, if necessary, a bail-in—that is, a requirement on bond holders to take a loss on their investment—in order to keep a financial institution solvent. That remains to be dealt with, and it will be important for us outside the banking union still to have that under sufficient scrutiny.

For some eurozone member states, the “banking element” is the dominant part of the current economic problems. For example, in the Republic of Ireland, one of our most important commercial partners, the cost of the bailout of Anglo Irish Bank is, I believe, broadly equivalent to the bailout funds received from outside the country. I remain quite optimistic about the greater “safety first” in banking and the gradual elimination of the overhang of toxic lending, and that it will be successfully achieved in both the UK and the eurozone.

The second element of the eurozone problem is more intractable. This is the overhang of excessive public debt and continuing public deficits in many EU member states. Of course, public expenditure has to come down in most EU countries, but in the mean time public debt, much of it predating the euro, has to be financed; hence the crux of the immediate problem. I love Greece dearly, but it is a tiny part of the EU economy and I will not mention it again today. If, however, there was a crisis—not the current half-crisis but a real crisis—in the larger member states, Italy and Spain, that would be serious. Evidently a guarantee given by the eurozone as a whole to the lender of last resort, presumably the ECB, would be a solution, once again demonstrating that the EU is ruled not by bureaucrats but by independent sovereign states, but that has been ruled out by Germany and some other member states.

However, the ECB has made real progress in recent weeks in restoring some confidence to these markets. The interest rate on Italian 10-year bonds, even after the reappearance of Mr Berlusconi in the political field, still remains close to an eight-month low of about 4.8%, which is sustainable. We have to accept that the correction of past overexpenditure—debt-financed—on public account will take time. Efforts should be made to stimulate growth in the eurozone as in the UK, but I am not unduly optimistic.

So what course should the UK be on? Clearly we need to maintain the advantages provided by the single market, not just in the narrow sense but also, for example, in relation to reductions in the cost of air travel, mobile communications, patents and so on. It is also evident that, given the current state of British public opinion and in the light of our correct decision not to participate in the euro, we have to look for opting out of most of the financial measures being proposed or implemented for the eurozone. We should not elevate this to a theological argument. The EU is a living organism and there are already a good number of opt-outs and not only for the UK. For example, I am glad to see in the European Union (Approvals) Bill before us today a decision to continue with one Commissioner per member state. That is perhaps not a very good decision, but it was originally foreseen to reduce the number. That was not acceptable to the Republic of Ireland, hence the Bill before us today demonstrating that point.

Leaving aside economics for a moment, it is important to remember that changes that have taken place in the EU in recent years are extremely favourable. Working and travelling abroad have been made immeasurably easier and 1.6 million Britons live in the EU outside the UK. Other changes include the mutual recognition of qualifications, no visas for three months, and the common EU driving licence and EU health insurance. Telecom monopolies have been abolished. The cost of 10-minute calls has gone down by 74% and the price of texts from 25p to 9p. All these things need to be quoted, for we have to think a bit about ordinary people in this debate as well as businesses, bankers and summit meetings.

Court of Justice of the European Union

Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

My Lords, as is normal, I declare an interest in that I spent a large part of my career dealing with European affairs in the UK Civil Service and part of it in the European Commission, and that I have pensions from my work.

The House is of course already aware of the problem identified in the two draft EU regulations to which this Motion relates—namely, the backlog of cases and consequent delays in the European Court of Justice, in particular in the General Court, and in the European Civil Service Tribunal. The average turnaround in competition cases was recently 33 months but rising, as stated by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson. That is a serious matter when settling these extremely important questions for business, both that of this country and of others within the European Union. The House debated the issue on 17 October last, when the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, presented a report of the EU Committee. It is fair to say that in that debate, and again of course tonight, all noble Lords who spoke considered that some action was necessary, including the possible increase in the number of General Court judges from 27 to 39. I shall come back to this point because that proposal is not dead but is not in draft Regulation 2011/0901, as now amended, which is before us this evening.

In October last year the right honourable Member and Minister for Europe, Mr Lidington, stated in a letter that the Government were not convinced that the Court is facing an imminent crisis. In the debate on 17 October, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, slightly elaborated on that point when he said that the EU Committee and contributors to that debate recognised that the Court of Justice had done a remarkable job in managing the case load and that it was “in that context” that the Government did not accept that there is an imminent crisis with regard to the Court of Justice.

I shall come back specifically to the Motion before us, but I will make two preliminary points. First, the document tells us that the two draft regulations are to be put to the Council for agreement on 24 July—that is to say, tomorrow. We are running it a bit fine, if I may say so, because the Motion is needed to comply with Section 10(1)(e) of the European Union Act 2011, under which a Minister may not vote in favour of or otherwise support the decision unless parliamentary approval has been given. In some respects, I believe that the European Union Bill went too far, but I am attentive to the meticulous respect of the 2011 Act, which is now in force. Secondly, it was difficult last week to get hold of the two draft regulations with which this Motion deals: 2011/0901 and 2011/0902. By chance, however, I came upon the briefing pack from the Library and I can tell the Minister that my comments rely on that pack.

In substance, what we are now being asked to approve in the current version of Regulation 2011/0901 is the establishment of a vice-president of the Court of Justice, the removal of the requirement to read the report of the judge rapporteur at the hearing, and the modification of the composition of the Grand Chamber to have at least three presidents of chambers of five judges as well as the president of the Court, the vice-president and other judges. In Regulation 2011/0902, we are asked to approve the possibility of attaching temporary judges to the European Civil Service Tribunal, and that does not appear to be controversial. I think that we can agree to the procedural changes as the Government recommend.

In October 2011, there were 1,323 cases pending before the General Court. That is too many. In an Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, on 10 January, the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, stated that 20 live cases were referred from a UK court or tribunal where judgment had not been issued by the European Court of Justice, and some of these were quite old. He did not say that they were old, but I can assure him that they were. There are a number of reasons for the increase in the judicial load. One is the regrettable increase in legislation. Another, to which I draw particular attention—and it has not been mentioned so far tonight—is that, as stated in the Commission’s opinion of 30 September last:

“the highest rate of increase has in fact been in appeals against decisions concerning sanctions against people or entities based on mechanisms established under the Common Foreign and Security Policy”.

It is always a cause for serious reflection if the number of appeals increases, since they represent a non-acceptance of earlier judicial or similar decisions.

What we are not being asked to approve tonight, which a lot of Members regret, is the increase in the number of judges in the General Court from 27 to 39, at a cost estimated by the European Court of Justice itself of about €13 million a year. I am very keen that, because we recognise some action is needed to reduce the overload in the General Court, we should not consider implicitly favouring this specific proposal. I believe that we may need an increase in the number of judges, but I cannot find anywhere in this excellent pack a specific justification for the considerable increase from 27 to 39. I am aware that the European Court of Justice asked for it, but we need to be sure about the reason for that particular number.

The rapporteur of the Committee on Legal Affairs of the European Parliament concedes rightly in her report that,

“there is no empirical method of demonstrating that the figure of 12 additional Judges is the correct one”.

I certainly think that that matter needs careful consideration, despite the enthusiastic support of many Members of this House for action on the number of judges.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]

Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

My Lords, as is always my practice when I see “European Union” on the Order Paper, I declare my interest. I spent the greater part of my career in United Kingdom public service on European affairs, and a smaller part of my career in the European Commission, and I have pensions from my work.

Before coming briefly to the purpose of the Bill—namely, the approval of an EU decision to amend Article 136 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, which applies only to member states whose currency is the euro—I will stress that the decision of the member states of the euro area to replace the two temporary decisions taken to confront the sovereign debt crisis with a permanent European stability mechanism is a good one. Strangely, the text of the decision does not appear in the Bill. However, indefatigable readers of government documents—of whom I am one—will find it in paragraph 7 of the Explanatory Notes, which carries the exact text of the decision about which we are talking.

The mechanism is extremely important and has been widely discussed. However, it will not be sufficient to recreate a stable situation in the euro area, as we can see not only from the situation of Greece but from the sovereign bond markets and, most recently, from the new and correct pressure for a growth pact or specific measures directed to growth. The emphasis on growth is right. However, to avoid overdosing the euro with tales of woe it is perhaps worth recalling that in 2011, 12 member states in the euro area had a growth rate equal to or higher than that of the UK, and that the eurozone grew twice as fast as the UK.

Now the situation is serious. The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, used the same phrase in two debates. He said that we were on the edge of a precipice. It was an important reminder, but of course we do not have to fall over a precipice when we are on the edge. That is what we and the euro area must think more about. We must see whether the existence, in some form or within very strict rules, of a lender of last resort, which understandably is ruled out by Germany at present, will ultimately be possible. That might be bolstered by measures such as the project bonds, which are a good idea.

We discussed these matters a number of times. We discussed them in relation to the gracious Speech, and recently in relation to the European Union Committee report. We are now discussing them again, and the Government are replying through three Ministers: the noble Lords, Lord Sassoon and Lord Astor of Hever, and the noble Lord who is replying today. Therefore, we have made a small contribution to joined-up government.

I turn now to the Bill. In a recent debate the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, reminded us that we put on the statute book 12,000 to 15,000 pages of law per year, while removing only 2,000 to 3,000 pages. It is therefore a real pleasure to have before us today a commendably short Bill of two clauses totalling 164 words, which makes it a great deal easier to deal with. I find it quite easy to deal with the Bill.

The European Union Act, which was passed in the previous Session, established the important requirement that any transfer of powers or competencies to the European Union would require a referendum of the British people, but a small number of tightly defined exceptions were included in the Act. One was the approval of the accession of a new member state. That does not apply to this Bill but later, according to the gracious Speech, we expect to be asked to approve the accession of Croatia. What does apply to this Bill is that where a decision does not apply to the United Kingdom, its approval can be confirmed by the Minister and no referendum is required.

The proposed amendment of Article 136 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union with regard to the stability mechanism for member states whose currency is the euro clearly meets this criterion as we are, happily, not in the euro. The Bill complies exactly with Section 4(4)(b) of the European Union Act which we passed in the previous Session. For all those reasons, I can agree to the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Liddle]

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, is absolutely right. In addition to infrastructure, I think that we need a more moderate pace of deficit reduction. The Commission argues that the fiscal compact gives you all the flexibility that you need in a crisis situation. That should be done. Secondly, we should be mobilising the structural funds to tackle the employment issues, particularly the fact that in countries such as Greece and Spain, getting on for half of young people are out of work which is completely unsustainable socially and politically. It is also the case that a major competitive weakness of southern Europe is the low skills level of its workforce. That must be addressed from Europe through the structural funds—a crash programme of social investment in human capital.

Thirdly, the eurozone needs more balance between the strong and the weak in the urgent competitiveness adjustments that it must make. Stronger countries such as Germany have room for manoeuvre. Noble Lords talked about higher wages for German workers, which are certainly affordable. German wages have gone up very little despite the country’s enormous export success. I am glad that there is now a consensus between the Social Democrats and Christian Democrats on the introduction of a national minimum wage. Germany would have to tolerate only a bit more inflation to help the south, which is suffering debt-trapped deflation. That would enable the ECB to meet and maintain its target level of inflation of around 2% across the whole eurozone.

Our hope is that the political ramifications of the Hollande victory will result in a wider and bolder set of actions to build a stronger firewall, recapitalise the banks, adjust the pace of deficit reduction, offer immediate help on jobs and increase demand in countries with surpluses. That will not get us out of the need to make harsh adjustments. However, if we continue with collective austerity it will lead to collective suicide.

What is the coalition’s view? Is it still backing Mrs Merkel’s priority of fiscal austerity, which has been its policy at home for the past two years? Or is it undergoing a latter-day Keynesian conversion to the need for growth in Europe? If the eurozone can have a plan B, can we not have one at home? That is what we need. It is very odd for a Eurosceptic Conservative Party to argue that it is all right to have additional public borrowing through the EIB and project bonds at European level, but that of course it would be a complete disaster to tolerate any flexibility in the public borrowing of the UK. I find this an amusing contradiction in the present situation.

That confusion and contradiction, with a sharp eye for public relations, have been characteristic of the Government’s conduct of their European policy. As the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, said, they treat the eurozone as a convenient whipping boy to cover their own failures. As we know, last year growth in the eurozone was higher than in the UK. I am interpreting what the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, said.

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

It was a rather broad interpretation: the size of the Atlantic.

[Lord Liddle]

I apologise to the noble Lord, but the point is surely valid. Growth last year in the eurozone was twice that in the UK. Therefore, to blame the eurozone for the present double dip is nonsense.

The big point that the Eurosceptics fail to understand is that we cannot avoid the consequences of the euro by being out of it. In or out, our future is deeply affected because of our exports and the interlinking of our financial system. As Robert Chote said, if Greece exits, who knows what will happen? We may never in the foreseeable future recover the level of output that we had in 2008. A policy of splendid isolation from the continent was never realistic for Britain, but in the world of globalisation and economic integration it does not work at all.

Nor is our isolation very splendid. We are losing influence and clout in Europe to a dangerous degree. I will give one telling illustration. The Prime Minister claimed that the reason he used the veto and walked out of the December European meeting was that his partners would not accept a set of proposals that he tabled at 2 am in order to protect the City of London. A couple of weeks ago, on the capital requirements directive, the Chancellor, George Osborne, and the British for the first time found themselves outvoted by 26 to one at ECOFIN on a key question of financial regulation. The Chancellor has now recognised that he has to go along with the majority. That is not an effective use of the British veto. It just shows how influence is draining away from us at the moment.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts

Thursday 17th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

My Lords, I would like to make some comments and pose some questions to the Minister about European affairs. As I always do, I declare an interest in that I spent the greater part of my career in the United Kingdom Civil Service on European affairs and a smaller part in the European Commission, as I have pensions from my work.

I begin by noting that in the gracious Speech, the Government will seek approval of Parliament relating to the agreed financial stability mechanism within the euro area. The Bill, which is commendably short, will have its Second Reading on 23 May, and I shall give my comments then, but on examining it briefly, the procedure seems to me to comply fully with the European Union Act of the previous Session and to be strictly limited to the euro area which, happily, we are not in. Subject to further examination of the Bill, I do not see the difficulty.

In the debate today, I recognise that many issues concerning the European Union now relate to economic policy. We have only to open the daily papers day after day to know that that is the case. To that degree, they might have been thought appropriate to the subject matter of yesterday’s debate, but these issues—in particular, the probable departure of Greece from the eurozone and, following the election of President Hollande, a change of emphasis elsewhere in the eurozone towards a stress on economic growth—are extremely important to the United Kingdom’s economy and the world economy, so we need watchful monitoring on the part of the Government, although I realise that they are not susceptible to an immediate answer from the Minister.

For myself, I think that the likely result after a while will be the creation of a lender of last resort in the euro area and, within strict limits, the issue of eurobonds, which would considerably restore an element of stability, which is clearly in the interests of the United Kingdom.

The points I wish to make, however, go wider than the economic performance of the European Union, the eurozone, and I think that the Minister will find the relevant to the UK’s foreign policy and our relationship to our European neighbours. I want the Minister to set out clearly what are the key positive priorities—I repeat, positive priorities—for the Government to obtain advantages for the United Kingdom in our relations with the European Union and in the development of the EU policies in the years ahead. There clearly are such priorities, but I do not see them reverberating around the country or in the media in a period when disillusion with the European Union is clearly strong.

In the previous Session, the Government introduced, and Parliament passed, the European Union Act, which ensures that any transfer of powers or competences to the European Union cannot take place unless the British people, in a referendum, decide to do that. That is a defensive wall, but I do not think that public opinion has fully registered it. It is perhaps inevitable in those circumstances that the debate should move to the assertion that the current powers of the European Union are almost all-embracing. That is surely not correct. There are very wide areas of our public life in which the role of the European Union is marginal: for example, education health and housing. For that reason, the European Union Act was a very important piece of legislation.

I come now to where we are today. It appears that our position on discussions in the European Union is mostly directed to resisting proposals which we do not find acceptable. Of course, we have to do that, although the objective should always be to nip them in the bud and to maximise the number of our allies. I take as an example the current EU budget proposals which, in a period of economic meltdown, are too high. It is said that some of the costs results from projects, such as some regional development projects in new member states, which are now coming to a conclusion so bills must be paid. Is that true and, if it is, where have we identified corresponding savings in other areas?

I yield to no one in recognising the need for a tough stance where necessary. I am proud of the small role which I played in the negotiation of the United Kingdom rebate, which has so far brought about £68 billion to the United Kingdom—figures are always nice to cite—and which cannot be changed without our agreement.

However, my main point is the need to present well our positive objectives within the European Union. Here are some examples. First, there is international trade, in which the European Union is immensely important. Where are we looking for more bilateral agreements to open up trade between the European Union and other nations such as South Korea, Brazil and elsewhere, and what are our priorities? Secondly, there is our influence in foreign affairs—a point I put particularly to the Minister. The decision to put the external delegations, which were under the control of the Commission, into the European External Action Service with input from member states is an important challenge. How do we rate the challenge and what advantage is the UK getting or aiming to get from it? How far has it helped in relation to, for example, the Arab spring and, in particular, the disastrous situation in Syria?

Thirdly, there is maximising the advantages of the world’s biggest single market and the need to encourage growth of the member states’ economies. Of course, the excessive level of public spending in the member states and the high level of unemployment have different causes. That is why I am a bit more positive and optimistic about the future of the euro. Both Spain and Ireland were in fiscal surplus before the crisis hit; their problems stemmed from the massive and unsustainable housing and construction boom. The Italian economy, which we are hearing a lot about, has been running a primary surplus for many years but is overburdened by the legacy of public debt, which predated the euro. Now we have to look to see what we can do in the relatively short term to encourage, if not to create, greater growth within the European Union. Perhaps a growth compact, as suggested by some leaders in the eurozone, could be an advantage.

To summarise, my main point is that the Government should identify and, where appropriate, make public their priorities for advantages for the United Kingdom to be sought and gained within the European Union. This should be at the forefront of government thinking in the year ahead.

European Union Bill

Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Lords Chamber

It now falls to your Lordships to consider whether to insist on these amendments, given the opposition, once again, to the threshold from the other place and given the clear and well informed doubts on all sides about the wisdom, sense and advisability of having thresholds injected into referenda for either these or wider matters. I hope that your Lordships will decide that we need not pursue this issue further. I beg to move.

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

My Lords, we have not proposed any amendment to Motion A, which has been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford. Accordingly, we accept the decision of the House of Commons to refuse any role for Parliament in the event—a perhaps rather unlikely event—of a referendum with a small or even derisory turnout. It is regrettable that, not just in relation to this Bill but in relation to other issues more widely, we have not established how we might deal with such cases. As we see in the Localism Bill and elsewhere, the referendum is likely to play a much bigger role in government in Britain in the future and on more issues.

Although in this case the House of Commons has refused the role which this House proposed for Parliament, no doubt the noble Lord the Minister will agree that because Parliament is sovereign it could in the future, if it so wished, amend the Act to insert a role for itself as we proposed in relation to a low or very low turnout in a specific referendum. But that issue does not arise today.

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I want to associate this side of the House with what the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, has said. The matter will not be pressed today but I would ask the House to understand the reasons in the briefest sense for why this was argued and why I think, even in the earlier example of devolution decisions in the past, people were keen to see some sort of threshold. The proposal for a 40 per cent threshold is not a benchmark which would be insisted on for every kind of vote in every kind of circumstance, although some people might in many circumstances wish to see that figure exceeded.

We are talking about changes in quite fundamental constitutional arrangements. It seems quite reasonable to say that there should be some degree of consensus that is visible and substantial when a major constitutional change is to take place. These changes in relationships with Europe would be significant constitutional changes, which is precisely why this legislation is before the House in the first place. It would be wrong to say that it is not simply a matter of how many turn up to vote because whatever the proportion was you would still have to win the vote as well in order to achieve the result.

To conclude, a number of constitutional changes are before your Lordships’ House in this parliamentary Session. We have had them on constituencies, on AV and in this Bill. We will probably see some in any Bill about reform of your Lordships’ House. In introducing piecemeal constitutional change, always with the possibility of it being adopted without there being real and genuine safeguards, we will end up with a set of jig-saw pieces from different jig-saws all shaken into the same box and without prospect of being joined together in any realistic way or without people making realistic decisions about the overall impact of what we are doing. We deny ourselves the safeguard today and, once again, I suspect that we will regret it.

European Union Bill

Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

I will not make any comments on the amendment of my noble friend Lord Lea, which the Minister dealt with very clearly. We on this side of the House greatly appreciate the courtesy with which the Minister has dealt with the many points that we raised in the long debate on the Bill—as has the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire. However, what I failed to hear in the Minister's summing-up was an acknowledgement that the Bill that leaves this House is very different from the Bill that arrived, and that on fundamental points the House has amended it in a way that we hope the other place will take due notice of. We have reduced the compulsory requirement for referenda on 56 issues—I know that this figure is disputed by the Government—to three; we have clarified the sovereignty clause in a way that satisfies former Lord Chancellors; we have introduced a 40 per cent turnout threshold for a referendum to be binding; and we have passed a sunset clause that will require a future Parliament by positive resolution to revive the Bill. These are very significant changes and I hope that on the Government’s side there is an acknowledgement that they must think seriously about the views that were expressed on all sides of the House in a very broad consensus that the Bill is badly flawed.

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

I did not intervene earlier because I got the impression that this was not only Third Reading but probably fourth, fifth and sixth reading, given the many points that were made that did not appear to relate in any way to Clause 18. I shall be extremely brief in saying that it is correct that the Bill that now goes to the House of Commons is different because we have fully considered it and made changes, and we look forward to a serious and positive response from the other House.

I will make only one further point. If the Bill becomes an Act, I share the view of the Government on one important point; I hope that it will seriously improve the possibility of a better connection between the people and the European Union. That is the primary intention of the Bill and, however much it has changed, it is still very important that we should seek to achieve that.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, I, too, add my warm thanks to the Ministers for the extremely gracious and thoughtful way in which they have responded to issues in this House. In particular, I thank the Minister for his willingness to spend some time meeting people personally to discuss their particular problems when he is an extremely busy man with a heavy ministerial list, as indeed is his colleague the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire. I do not want to detain the House either, beyond thanking them very much and saying one other word following the noble Lord, Lord Williamson.

There are issues in the amendments that this House has passed which would improve the Bill very considerably. I hope that the Ministers will think quite carefully before trying to oppose them completely, because they would bring about a degree of consensus across the House that would be extremely valuable for our future relations with Europe, about which the Minister has already spoken eloquently. We welcome what he has said about that. I hope that the Government will take away from this at least a willingness to consider whether it might not improve the Bill to accept some of these amendments.

European Union Bill

Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

5: Clause 2, page 2, line 22, at end insert “, and
(d) the Electoral Commission have issued a certificate stating whether or not it appears to them that more than 40 per cent of the persons entitled to vote in the referendum have voted in it. ( ) If the certificate issued under subsection (2)(d) states that more than 40 per cent of the persons entitled to vote in the referendum have voted in it, the treaty may be ratified.
( ) If the certificate issued under subsection (2)(d) states that fewer than 40 per cent of the persons entitled to vote in the referendum have voted in it, the treaty may not be ratified unless—
(a) in each House of Parliament a Minister of the Crown has moved a motion that the House approves Her Majesty’s Government’s intention to ratify the treaty, and(b) each House has agreed to the motion without amendment.”

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

My Lords, Amendment 5, and the similar Amendment 8 that is grouped with it, are both in my name. Although these amendments are relevant to the European Union Bill, they are not about European Union policy. They are about the way in which we deal with referendums in this country and the role of Parliament, if any, in relation to referendums. Perhaps this might have the unique result that, when we continue the discussion on this amendment, we might find that Europhiles, Europhobes and Eurosceptics are all on the same side, which would be rather unusual. The amendments have a good—indeed, a noble—parentage, since they are in substance the same as the much discussed amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, to the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill.

The effect of Amendment 5 is quite simple. The Government have proposed that, if, as a consequence of the referendum lock set up in the Bill, a national referendum were to be held on any of the about 50 cases covered by the Bill, that referendum result would be mandatory and Parliament would have no role. This amendment would not change that situation if at least 40 per cent of the persons entitled to vote had voted in the referendum. However, if there were a poor turnout and a smaller percentage of the electorate voted, the result would remain valid but would have to be confirmed by a Motion in each House of Parliament. This will give Parliament its proper representative role if there were, for example, a derisory turnout.

This amendment is particularly relevant to the Bill because all the potential decisions or transfers of power or competence to the European Union covered by the Bill are already subject to our veto and the Government have stated that they do not intend to make any of these decisions or transfers in the current Parliament. Unless, therefore, a sunset clause is inserted—the subject of later amendments—or, if it becomes an Act, a future Parliament repeals the Bill, the legislation has the potential to require national referendums for many years ahead.

What would be the circumstances of these potential referendums? First, they would be about issues where the UK Government had concluded that it would be in the national interest to act. If not, the Government would simply veto the proposal under existing powers. Secondly, a referendum might be about a change to qualified majority voting. There are 40 different cases listed in Schedule 1 on subjects which voters might find of little interest or importance. An example might be a change in the method of voting for the appointment of advocates-general of the European Court of Justice. Such a bizarre national referendum would probably attract a miserable turnout. This amendment would give Parliament an opportunity to take stock. Alternatively, a future referendum might be about a serious treaty change or a group of changes. In Committee, the Minister speculated that in the future this might be the case, although I personally consider it improbable, but in any event there would clearly be a significant turnout in such circumstances. This amendment does not affect the mandatory nature of such a referendum decision.

To conclude, this amendment would bring back a role for Parliament in those cases, and only in those cases, where the British public had demonstrated their lack of interest by a very low turnout in a referendum. I beg to move Amendment 5.

--- Later in debate ---

For all those reasons, I would urge the noble Lords, despite the superficial attractions of 40 per cent—and they are very superficial—to understand its grave disadvantages. The amendment aims at the very heart of the Bill and undermines a lot of the causes that many of us hold dear about the positioning of this country in the 21st century. That being so they would be wise to withdraw their amendments.

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

My Lords, it is traditional to say we have had a wide-ranging debate. On this occasion it is true. When I put the amendment forward, I hoped I would get a measure of support from different parts of the House. I have done that, but of course there has been a good measure of disagreement as well. I have also succeeded in doing something I did not set out to do: I have clearly split the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats. That will, perhaps, give me a reward in heaven, although I will go on a little longer to say that I will be first to have a reward here in the Chamber.

I would like to make one or two very brief points. The first is that this amendment comes forward because of circumstances that have been dictated by the Government’s Bill. They are nothing whatever to do with a blank space about how we are going to deal with Europe. We have a Bill on the table that potentially introduces more than 50 referenda. I do not think we will get those, but in any event what is happening in the near future, to which the Minister referred, is not relevant because the Government is not going to take this action during the current Parliament.

What we are discussing is what sort of referendum regime we want to build into our constitution for the medium term and what role we think Parliament should play in that. I think Parliament should play some part, particularly in those cases where the British public has shown a complete lack of interest in—or even their disagreement or contempt for—the Government’s attempt to hold a referendum by voting in negligible numbers. I think it is perfectly reasonable, in those circumstances, for Parliament to take responsibility. That is the basic approach and I stand by it.

I do not want to go into all the other details because I know nothing about the incinerator in King’s Lynn. I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, that we have reached the death of the political class. I know they are a bit threatened, but I do not think they are dead. All those issues are beyond me.

One final point is that there have been a good number of comparisons with elections, local elections and so on, which have no 40 per cent bar. I think all those arguments are totally irrelevant. In particular, we had a Second Reading of a Bill yesterday that made possible a large number of referendums on local government. Every one of those referendums was going to be advisory, not mandatory. The position of the Government, particularly the Liberal Democrats, is in favour of advisory referenda and I cannot see why they wish to act differently in this case. I think I have said enough, and I wish to get my reward here and not in heaven. Therefore, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

European Union Bill

Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

8: Clause 3, page 2, line 42, at end insert “, and
(d) the Electoral Commission have issued a certificate stating whether or not it appears to them that more than 40 per cent of the persons entitled to vote in the referendum have voted in it. ( ) If the certificate issued under subsection (2)(d) states that more than 40 per cent of the persons entitled to vote in the referendum have voted in it, the decision may be approved.
( ) If the certificate issued under subsection (2)(d) states that fewer than 40 per cent of the persons entitled to vote in the referendum have voted in it, the decision may not be approved unless—
(a) in each House of Parliament a Minister of the Crown has moved a motion that the House approves Her Majesty’s Government’s intention to approve the decision, and(b) each House has agreed to the motion without amendment.”

European Union Bill

Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

My Lords, the grouping includes quite different proposals relating to a possible sunset clause. Amendments 61 and 63 propose an unqualified sunset clause by which the Act would fall on the Dissolution of Parliament. Amendment 62 is the so-called sunset-sunrise clause, because the Act would fall but could be immediately—I stress that point—revived by a simple resolution of both Houses of Parliament.

I will speak to Amendment 62 and I shall speak very moderately. I have sat through eight days of Committee so far and I occasionally get the impression that people think I am not moderate, but I have been extremely moderate in all my interventions throughout Committee. As we enter day eight on the Floor of the House, it is evident that the Bill is a heavy approach—the Government would not dispute that—that is likely, whatever the future circumstances, to block moves to a qualified majority in the European Union.

I have already indicated that I fully understand why the Government have presented the Bill. I also consider that it would be sensible to take another look at the situation at the end of this Parliament, without prejudice, and for Parliament to decide whether to continue the Bill. That is the proposition in Amendment 62. That proposal has been described by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, as right, and I would describe it as a wise proposal.

[Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne]

I follow the noble Lord with further comment about the applicability of a sunset clause for this type of Bill at all. We must provide certainty for the British public, which as a former Member of the European Parliament I must say is sadly lacking for them at the moment because of the way in which European Union business has previously been dealt with by the British Parliament and Governments. The sunset clause, which would in effect kill the Bill, would take away that certainty, and I wonder whether it is an applicable mechanism for this sort of Bill.

The sunset clause was, of course, introduced by the Counter-Terrorism Bill on the basis that that Bill introduced extraordinary measures in keeping with the UK's liberal values in an emergency, but that is not the case with the European Union Bill. This is not an emergency and the Bill does not reflect a short-term measure. It is a long-term policy shared by all sides, except I think by the minority, with even the Opposition accepting that there should be a referendum for big treaty changes under the ordinary revision procedure for issues such as the euro. I am one of those who believe profoundly that in order to reconnect with the public we need more possibilities for referenda, as those outlined in Schedule 1 inform us. However, the Public Bodies Bill, which also has a sunset clause, is tasked with a specific programme for a specific time. Let me suggest that as this Bill is for the long term, this is no different from any other legislation that your Lordships’ House passes. For example, privatisation did not have a sunset clause. It was, we believe, the right thing to do to react to new circumstances.