Lord Williamson of Horton
Main Page: Lord Williamson of Horton (Crossbench - Life peer)European Union Bill
Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts“(c) following the holding of the referendum, in each House of Parliament a Minister of the Crown has moved a motion that the House approves Her Majesty’s Government’s intention to ratify the treaty, and each House has agreed to the motion without amendment.”
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, I declared an interest at Second Reading and I now rise for the first time in Committee to speak also to Amendments 6, 13 and 14, which are in my name, and to similar amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean. So far today, I have been in the minority: that is to say, the minority that did not interrupt the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, or the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon. However, by the time we have dealt with this amendment, I hope that I will be in the majority. That is my plan, and I hope that we will begin to get a good deal of agreement on the amendments in this group.
I see the amendments as a normal part of scrutiny. We had a few discussions earlier today about whether some amendments were very broad and went beyond scrutiny. I consider that these amendments are a proper part of the scrutiny of a Bill that has been through the other House.
A prime purpose of the Bill before us is to establish a referendum lock in relation to the potential transfer of power or competence, as discussed, from the United Kingdom to the European Union. I think that this will not give rise to any referendums—or at least to very few—because the UK Government will simply not take the action that would trigger a referendum. However, we cannot be sure what the situation will be in future Parliaments or future Governments, and, although I do not expect it personally, it seems that we could face a blizzard of referendums. For that reason, I consider it important that we should decide the conditions for the application of these referendums so as to ensure the confidence of the British public in their results.
All the referendums that might arise under the Bill would be mandatory. To this extent, they would be a form of referendum government, as opposed to the parliamentary government to which we are accustomed. Amendments 5 and 13 would reintroduce Parliament from the cul-de-sac where it is at the moment under the Bill. The amendments would ensure that, following a referendum, it was necessary for a Minister to move a Motion in Parliament approving the intention to ratify the treaty and for Parliament to agree it. That is a change from the Bill and it goes further than Amendment 6, about which I shall now say a word.
With Amendment 6 go Amendment 14 and the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Symons. It is possible that some of the referendums would be on important issues that would be likely to attract the attention and votes of a significant number of citizens. However—we have been over this ground to some degree—other issues set out in the Bill are certainly less important, and the British public might be relatively indifferent and not vote in significant numbers. Looking at the list of items, I must say that I would find it very difficult to enthuse the British public to vote in a referendum on them, and that is why I put forward Amendment 6. It would establish that, if the number of votes in a referendum fell below 40 per cent of the electorate, the referendum would still be valid but it would be advisory to Parliament, which would take the final decision.
Noble Lords will be familiar with the proposal in this amendment because this House discussed at length and passed a similar proposal on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, which was moved on that occasion by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. He has established himself in the pantheon of those dealing with the constitutional effects of referendums and, with this amendment, I have the modest hope of following his example. Of course, I have the confidence and hope that this House, having voted for this very approach only a few weeks ago, will not hesitate to do so again in relation to Amendment 6. There is nothing like having consistency in the House and I hope that we will be able to see it in force again when we deal with this matter in the EU Bill.
That is a very simple presentation of these amendments and, in my view, they are quite simple in their purpose and are not entirely a European Union matter. They also concern how we handle referendums, which I consider quite important and on which I have quite strong views. I voted the way most people did in this House on the previous occasion and I hope that these amendments will commend themselves to the Committee. I beg to move.
The Deputy Chairman (The Countess of Mar)
I have to tell noble Lords that if Amendment 5 or Amendment 6 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 7 because of pre-emption.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
My Lords, in my heart of hearts, I take a harder position than the noble Lords, Lord Williamson and Lord Hurd. I will support their amendment because no amendment on the Order Paper delivers exactly what I want. Referendums should only and always be advisory. The idea of a mandatory referendum is fundamentally destructive to the principles of parliamentary democracy. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said that what we have here is a palliative; I would rather have a cure.
First, I would cite the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, in support of what I have just said. It was a great pleasure to hear the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, tonight. He and I both experienced how rash it was to disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, so I wish to agree with the view that she expressed in the debate in 1975 on the Referendum Bill that the referendum should only be advisory and that if it were mandatory it would be destructive of parliamentary sovereignty.
An additional argument concerns timing. An advisory referendum, and possibly even a mandatory referendum, would not be quite so objectionable if it preceded the negotiation of the change in the EU texts to which the Government had agreed.
I was very much against the idea of a referendum on the euro in 1994—I do not remember that my opinion was sounded; quite rightly, it was not—but that was not quite as bad as what is foreseen in the Bill. If we were now to decide that we wished to join the euro, that would be followed by a negotiation with our partners that are now in the euro and might or might not result in our joining the euro. The Bill states that at the end of the process in Brussels—when the Government have extracted concessions from others around the table and a consensus has been found, the decision has been brought back and is acceptable to the Government and to Parliament—a referendum should decide whether we renege on what we have done.
The concept of interlocuteurs valables is quite important. When an ambassador is received by the state to which he is accredited, he presents his credentials. When the Foreign Secretary or his side-kick start a negotiation in Brussels, it is accepted that they speak for their Government. It then follows that if they do a deal, their Government will not renege on it. So when in the end a deal a struck—if one is struck—all participants are pledged to deliver it.
I was shocked when the French referendum on the constitutional treaty did not lead to resignations in the French Government. The people who negotiated the text which the French decided to reject should immediately have resigned. However, there may be a difference between a presidential and a parliamentary system of government; a president can stand away from an issue and blame the Government. You cannot do that here. If in a referendum on some arcane issue—which, on the basis of the Bill, might be decided on a very low turnout and a very low majority—we decided that we were going to renege on the deal that had been done and the text that had been initialled in Brussels, I would hope that the Ministers who had initialled the text and those who had negotiated for them would resign. They would have to.
Whether a referendum is mandatory or advisory depends in part on when it is. Here we have the worst case; under this Bill, all referendums will be after the negotiations. They are all linked to treaty changes and to a process that has taken place in Brussels; the outcome is brought back and the decision is taken on whether it should go to a referendum. If the referendum finds against the Government, it should lead to the resignation of the responsible Ministers. In honour, they would have to do that.
The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, earlier quoted tellingly from Jean-Claude Piris’s memorandum to the Commons European Scrutiny Committee about good faith. He spoke about the implications of adding new hurdles to the simplified treaty revision procedure. There is a bigger issue of good faith here. We are going to send our negotiators to negotiate and, when they have completed the job, they will carry on and there will be no change unless the country votes for it. I would much prefer an amendment that makes it purely advisory—a Thatcher amendment. There is no Thatcher amendment on the Order Paper now. I therefore support the amendment proposed by the noble Lords, Lord Hurd and Lord Williamson.
It is a huge delight to find myself in agreement with what the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, said about Amendment 6; he is completely correct. As to what he said about Amendment 5, the two go together. It is a technical point and I do not think that there is a difference. Amendment 5 is a necessary consequence of Amendment 6, but the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, will correct me if I am wrong.
Lord Williamson of Horton
Amendment 5 would establish an advisory referendum in all cases and not only in the case where there was the 40 per cent threshold. The distinction made by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, was quite intelligible and clear. Amendment 6 would establish the advisory nature of the referendum when the turnout was below 40 per cent. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, will be glad to hear, because he supported Amendment 5 without quite understanding it, that it would establish an advisory referendum in all cases.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
I have no more to say except to share the hope of the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, that the Minister, if he grumbles at all, will do so in the most mild and polite form.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, I am not sure whether the noble Lord is aware of the impact of what he said a few moments ago, because I think that he changed the terms of engagement. I hope that he will look at what he articulated in relation to turnout and results. He referred to the fact that Mrs Thatcher said that a low turnout and marginal results would not bind Parliament but that a high turnout with a clear result would, through common sense, bind Parliament. He spoke as though we had not already passed legislation on AV. The AV Bill has passed. Even if there is only a 15 per cent turnout and only 51 per cent of that 15 per cent vote in favour of AV, it is binding. That is what Parliament has decided.
I cannot understand how we place that position, which none of us wanted, alongside what the noble Lord has just said about Mrs Thatcher articulating a common-sense principle in the event of low turnout and a very marginal result. He needs to look at what he said just now. We think that it was great, but I am not sure that his colleagues will. I hope that he will look at that carefully and give us a clear view that will be supported by everyone on the government Benches—his own Benches and the Conservative Benches—before we get to Report, because I think that he has changed the terms of engagement. He could tell by the reaction from my noble colleagues on this side of the House that we all thought that. It is an important point, but let us leave it. The hour is late. The noble Lord has done very well over amendments that he did not expect to take. I thank him for his courtesy to the House in dealing with this in the way that he has.
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, I want to make one or two brief comments on this long debate. When you have been here for two hours and seven minutes, it is quite difficult to remember what you proposed, but I think that I can still do it. There were two separate proposals. First, I put forward the general proposal in Amendment 5 that we should move to an advisory referendum. I think that the House should consider that and decide whether it is going for advisory or obligatory referendums. That is a general issue, which needs to be decided.
Secondly, I am grateful for all the support that I have had from around the House for my second proposal, which is in Amendment 6. Apart from the Liberal Democrats, everyone else has supported it, which is not surprising, as this was the position taken by the House of Lords as a whole a few weeks ago. I thank all those who have spoken on this, in particular the opposition Front Bench. The proposal is that, where there is a very low turnout, instead of being mandatory, the referendum would be advisory and Parliament would decide. I am an extremely friendly and happy person most of the time but I was rather depressed by the arguments advanced from the Liberal Democrat Benches, because everyone assumed that, if Parliament took the final decision, Parliament’s idea would always be to go against the public. I quote from one of them: “The public would not be listened to”. Another Member from the Liberal Democrat Benches said that the public would be “ignored”; or, again, that it would not be like the Barnsley by-election because this would “nullify” the referendum. That is not what I have proposed at all.
I have proposed that the final decision—because by definition there would be a miserable turnout of the British people—would be with Parliament and the Government, who would be able to decide on the basis of the result before them. In my view, the normal situation would be that they would endorse the view of the British public. Let us say that 36 per cent vote, which is quite possible. Normally they would endorse that and the press headlines would simply state, “Good: Parliament and people together”. That would be the reaction and it would be extremely positive, not negative. The Liberal Democrat Benches are quite wrong in their assessment of what the public reaction would be in those circumstances, and I find that rather depressing.
In cases where there was a poor turnout, either it would be endorsed by the Government or the public themselves would say, “This is such a miserable result, let’s not bother with it any more. We don't care about how the Advocates-General are appointed, so forget it”. That would be the British public's reaction.
With those comments, which I felt bound to make after two hours and seven minutes, and seeing that it is now two hours and 11 minutes and that we are rather late, I will withdraw Amendment 5. Yet these issues will absolutely inevitably come back at a later stage because, as I said in speaking to Amendment 6, the House’s view on this is so recently established that we can be fairly confident that it will be endorsed again. Let us wait until Report to endorse it. So, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.