European Union Bill

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Tuesday 5th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

My Lords, I declared an interest at Second Reading and I now rise for the first time in Committee to speak also to Amendments 6, 13 and 14, which are in my name, and to similar amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean. So far today, I have been in the minority: that is to say, the minority that did not interrupt the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, or the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon. However, by the time we have dealt with this amendment, I hope that I will be in the majority. That is my plan, and I hope that we will begin to get a good deal of agreement on the amendments in this group.

I see the amendments as a normal part of scrutiny. We had a few discussions earlier today about whether some amendments were very broad and went beyond scrutiny. I consider that these amendments are a proper part of the scrutiny of a Bill that has been through the other House.

A prime purpose of the Bill before us is to establish a referendum lock in relation to the potential transfer of power or competence, as discussed, from the United Kingdom to the European Union. I think that this will not give rise to any referendums—or at least to very few—because the UK Government will simply not take the action that would trigger a referendum. However, we cannot be sure what the situation will be in future Parliaments or future Governments, and, although I do not expect it personally, it seems that we could face a blizzard of referendums. For that reason, I consider it important that we should decide the conditions for the application of these referendums so as to ensure the confidence of the British public in their results.

All the referendums that might arise under the Bill would be mandatory. To this extent, they would be a form of referendum government, as opposed to the parliamentary government to which we are accustomed. Amendments 5 and 13 would reintroduce Parliament from the cul-de-sac where it is at the moment under the Bill. The amendments would ensure that, following a referendum, it was necessary for a Minister to move a Motion in Parliament approving the intention to ratify the treaty and for Parliament to agree it. That is a change from the Bill and it goes further than Amendment 6, about which I shall now say a word.

With Amendment 6 go Amendment 14 and the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Symons. It is possible that some of the referendums would be on important issues that would be likely to attract the attention and votes of a significant number of citizens. However—we have been over this ground to some degree—other issues set out in the Bill are certainly less important, and the British public might be relatively indifferent and not vote in significant numbers. Looking at the list of items, I must say that I would find it very difficult to enthuse the British public to vote in a referendum on them, and that is why I put forward Amendment 6. It would establish that, if the number of votes in a referendum fell below 40 per cent of the electorate, the referendum would still be valid but it would be advisory to Parliament, which would take the final decision.

Noble Lords will be familiar with the proposal in this amendment because this House discussed at length and passed a similar proposal on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, which was moved on that occasion by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. He has established himself in the pantheon of those dealing with the constitutional effects of referendums and, with this amendment, I have the modest hope of following his example. Of course, I have the confidence and hope that this House, having voted for this very approach only a few weeks ago, will not hesitate to do so again in relation to Amendment 6. There is nothing like having consistency in the House and I hope that we will be able to see it in force again when we deal with this matter in the EU Bill.

That is a very simple presentation of these amendments and, in my view, they are quite simple in their purpose and are not entirely a European Union matter. They also concern how we handle referendums, which I consider quite important and on which I have quite strong views. I voted the way most people did in this House on the previous occasion and I hope that these amendments will commend themselves to the Committee. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman (The Countess of Mar)]

I have to tell noble Lords that if Amendment 5 or Amendment 6 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 7 because of pre-emption.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I support the noble Lord’s amendment. I am not someone who likes referenda at all, in any circumstance, and I have always made that quite clear, so I hope someone does not quote me from the past as being inconsistent in supporting this amendment. When one is scrutinising any Bill in Committee, I think we are in the business of trying to remove some of the worst disadvantages or most unattractive features of a Bill so that we end up with something a little better than what is originally presented to us.

I totally agree with the analysis of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, that the way in which, and the purpose for which, the Bill has been set up would not lead to a large number of referenda. It is completely impractical and inconceivable to have endless referenda often on very petty subjects. I made that argument at Second Reading and I note that the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, agrees with that. The result is that we will not have many referenda. I will not read from Schedule 1 again, as I did that earlier in today’s proceedings. I read out a different list of examples at Second Reading to prove the same point and to show how very inconsequential for the great majority of the public a lot of these issues—on which the Bill provides that we should have referenda—would be if any decision were taken about them or about the decision-making process to be used in relation to decisions made under them. Those sorts of issues—this must be the greatest understatement of the evening—would not enthuse the public.

I know perfectly well that the good people of Lincolnshire are second to none in their civic sense and their support for the democratic process. All of us in this country are very proud of our parliamentary traditions and are worried that in recent elections, there has been a circular decline in the participation rate of the electorate. However, if we present to the electorate the sort of issues in Schedule 1 and ask them to try to master the subject—or to form any view on it at all—and then to take time out from their leisure-time or working-time activities to turn out at the polls to cast a considered vote on these subjects, we are being not only completely unrealistic but deeply insulting to them. They would say, “That is what we elect you to Parliament to decide.”.

The result would be that only the very small number of people—one might refer to them as anoraks, but perhaps that would be disobliging—who are enormously enthusiastic about some arcane or technical aspect of the European Union or some other subject thrown up by one of these referenda would vote. We could have incredibly low participation rates. We could easily have participation rates of less than 20 per cent. If noble Lords read Schedule 1 and ask themselves what proportion of the country would be prepared to spend their private time on those issues, we could easily come to the conclusion that we will be lucky to get 10 per cent of the electorate turning out.

It would be monstrous if we took a decision that would have important practical consequences in relation to the matter under review on that basis. It might have even more important knock-on consequences if we were unable to take part in a major initiative which our partners in the European Union thought was essential because of the way the world was moving in whatever field—the economy and the single market, the environment or law, justice and home affairs. It might have considerable consequences on our influence and position in the European Union or our ability to defend our interests in the world generally if we could not go along with what was obviously a sensible initiative.

To leave the matter in the hands of that tiny minority of the electorate would be to treat those issues frivolously and irresponsibly. If we have to have those referenda—I repeat that, personally, I think that the whole idea is fundamentally misconceived—the mitigation of the situation proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, is about as good as could be devised in the circumstances. I therefore hope that the amendment is given the most sympathetic treatment and support in this House.