Environment: Plastic Bags

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 14th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, as I just said, we are monitoring the charging scheme in Wales and data from the first year will not be available until the summer. I understand that unintended consequences in the Republic of Ireland included an increase in sales of bin liners because consumers no longer used free carrier bags to line their bins. The production of bin liners has a bigger environmental impact than single-use carrier bags. In addition, following the introduction of the charge in Wales there was an increase in sales of bags for life. As the aim of a charge is to reduce use, it could result in a worse environmental outcome if they are used only once or twice, because they need to be used at least four times to have a lower carbon footprint than single-use carrier bags. We need to consider all the impacts in the round, and we will consider very carefully instituting a charge.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that the evidence from Wales suggests an indicative reduction in the use of bags of up to 90%, that there is a benefit for good causes from the 5p charge, which provides worthwhile sums, and that there has been a noticeable reduction in the number of bags lodged in hedgerows around Wales? Does this not add up to a very convincing case?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I acknowledge what the noble Lord says. As I have said, we are watching closely. There is a lot of evidence coming in, and we will make a decision in due course.

Food: Banks

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My noble friend asks an apposite question. As I have said, we thoroughly support the work of charities such as FareShare and FoodCycle, which work with the food industry to ensure that surplus food is distributed to people who really need it. Defra Ministers held a round-table meeting with retailers and food charities in July to explore the barriers to food redistribution. They also considered an outline proposal from FareShare and FoodCycle that seeks to make redistribution easier for both charities and retailers. This proposal would build on the partnerships that most major retailers already have with redistribution charities.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that an increasing number of people who are in work are resorting to food banks? The CAB has identified this as a result of high interest rates combined with low wages and insecure work. In these circumstances, what will the Government do about introducing a living wage?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right that we need to help the poorest in our country. That is why, over the past two years, the Government have provided grants of around £2 billion to help freeze council tax; the fuel duty increase that was due to take effect on 1 January was cancelled and the increase planned for 1 April deferred until 1 September; and we have lifted the personal tax allowance and taken 2 million of the lowest-paid people out of tax altogether. It is, of course, why we have the Healthy Start and school fruit and vegetable schemes. It is also good news that on 23 January we learnt that employment is up by 90,000 and that the rate of job growth last year was the fastest since 1989.

Water: National Grid

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

As my noble friend is aware, much has already been done by water companies to improve interconnectivity. My noble friend asked about a plan. We are encouraging water companies to include provision for better interconnectivity in the next price review round, which is due to complete in 2014. This is potentially much more cost-effective than creating a national grid and it will help to address the problem of imbalances in water availability across the country. We need Ofwat to get the incentives right so that water trading is economically attractive for water companies.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I welcome the statement made by the noble Lord a few hours ago in this Chamber, when he indicated that any proposals to secure additional water supplies from Wales would go ahead only with the agreement of the National Assembly as water is a devolved matter. That being so, will he also confirm that there will be a Barnett consequential for the expenditure undertaken as a result of the Bill passed last night that would be relevant to Wales?

Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I will speak briefly. I am sure that many noble Lords will be aware that water can be an inflammable substance in Wales. I realise that the immediate purpose of the Bill is fairly narrow, as the Minister described. Nevertheless, the Long Title states that this is a Bill:

“To make provision for the giving of financial assistance … in connection with the construction of, and the carrying out of works in respect of, water … infrastructure”.

That is a much broader purpose, as the Minister hinted. In the Second Reading debate in the other place, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Richard Benyon, stated that,

“the powers in the Bill are appropriately drafted. Although we currently have no plans to use those powers other than to assist South West Water customers and in relation to the Thames tunnel, we heard many calls today … for us to legislate … to invest in new infrastructure to help make the country more resilient to droughts in future”.—[Official Report, Commons, 6/3/12; col. 746.]

Clearly, that is part of the general strategy of the Bill, although it leads through to another piece of legislation, and no doubt we will cover other aspects of that. The wider considerations cannot be ignored.

Before considering these wider aspects, I note that the water rebate being facilitated by the Bill is, as currently envisaged, an England-only benefit. That is fair enough: no doubt the argument is that the National Assembly will handle any such question in Wales. If that is the line taken by the Government, the immediate question arises of whether the National Assembly will get a Barnett-consequential payment that will allow it to consider helping beleaguered Welsh Water ratepayers in similar circumstances.

In December, the Environment Secretary, Caroline Spelman MP, said that one idea that continued to be discussed was piping more water from Wales to England. That was at the launch of the Water for Life White Paper. I am very much aware that the Mayor of London, Mr Boris Johnson, also suggested—in 2010—moving water supplies from Wales and Scotland to areas of shortage in the south and east of England. Apparently he favours taking water from reservoirs in Wales, via the Severn and the Wye, to link to the Thames and the Trent. One has been made very much aware in recent weeks of the problems facing drought areas in southern and eastern England.

As I understand it, people in the parched east and south-east must look for new sources of water supply to meet domestic, agricultural and industrial needs. However, we in Wales had some very difficult experiences over the past half-century with such matters—in particular the manner in which the Tryweryn Valley was drowned and the village of Capel Celyn submerged to provide a source of water for Liverpool. There was immense hostility to the scheme. When Liverpool Corporation pressed the Bill to facilitate the drowning of the valley, every Welsh MP bar one voted against it, but it was passed. To make things worse, the price of water in Wales then became significantly higher than it was in cities like Liverpool and Birmingham that got their water from Wales. At one time, the price was three times higher. That puts into context what is now proposed for south-west England. I have every sympathy for people there because we, too, had these problems.

I raise the issue now to suggest that if there is any likelihood of English water companies looking again towards Wales—and one understands that they may need to because of their circumstances—there should be a firm undertaking from the start that fair recompense should come to Wales for the water abstracted directly or indirectly for such purposes. I will go further and suggest that the UK Minister should now open a dialogue with Welsh government Ministers with a view to establishing an understanding on any such water transfers that will be fair to everyone.

A leading Welsh economist, Professor Dylan Jones-Evans has stated:

“Wales has got the water. The issue now is who owns that resource and whether Wales is getting a fair price for it as if it was selling any other commodity, product or service”.

Of course, Professor Jones-Evans was a Conservative candidate in a recent election to the Welsh National Assembly. The Welsh Environment Minister, Labour AM John Griffiths, has also spoken in similar terms. He stated:

“Our view is that in Wales we have a very important resource in our water, and that it must be recognised as such. In any future negotiations or developments, we would obviously want to get full value for that very important water resource”.

Apparently, Severn Trent Water has set out proposals that will allow water companies to trade water from one region to another. Severn Trent Water operates in Wales, but I ask whether it is in any shape or form answerable to the Welsh public for its policies or activities of that sort.

I have a proposal for the Minister: before this issue becomes polarised and attitudes get antagonistic, the UK Government and Welsh Assembly government Ministers should get together to discuss a financial model that will make it worth while for Welsh authorities, local and national, to be partners in any such developments so that they take a positive attitude towards facilitating solutions that may be of mutual benefit. A modest scheme of payment for water abstracted from Wales could be really beneficial to communities in Wales that need to maximise their resources and very often do not have such resources at hand. This Bill may be modest, but it could foreshadow significant developments, and I appeal for a positive attitude from Her Majesty's Government.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 4th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rowlands]

My Lords, I will speak to my amendment, which would delete Clause 13, and to Amendment 87A, which suggests that parliamentary consent should be added to that of the Secretary of State for powers under the clause. I will preface my remarks by saying that my record shows that I have been a fervent supporter of transferring legislative competence to the Assembly through the procedures that we have had in the past. I refer to the legislative competence orders that were in Part 3 of the Government of Wales Act and to individual framework clauses in Bills that have come before the House in the past two or three years. I supported them because this was an important and useful way in which to transfer legislative competence until the referendum decided that the Welsh Assembly and Government should have full legislative powers. I am not an opponent of such transfers.

However, when I saw Clause 13, I thought that it was a step too far. This House has many times reflected deep concern and uneasiness about sweeping, ill defined powers granted to Ministers. The report of our Regulatory Reform Committee stated that the powers in Clause 13 were “insufficiently limited”. The committee made the same objections that it had made to Clauses 1 to 6, which was that Minsters were given,

“unacceptable discretion to rewrite the statute book, with inadequate parliamentary scrutiny of, and control over, the process”.

There have been many changes to the Bill, but the fundamental issue of the sweeping nature of the powers in it has caused serious concern. Henry VIII looks like a parliamentary democrat when one considers the powers that we are giving to Ministers in the Bill. I still feel extremely uneasy that an Act of Parliament is bestowing these powers on Welsh Ministers. This should be the National Assembly’s responsibility now that it has the power to do so after the referendum; that would have been a better process.

My second point, to which the Minister made no reference even though it is the reason for yet another new clause in the Bill, is that our Regulatory Reform Committee also drew attention to an extraordinary aspect of Clause 13. The committee states:

“The net result of what is proposed here is that Parliament should delegate to Welsh Ministers the power to amend Acts of Parliament in matters as respects which Parliament has not delegated to the NAW the power to amend Acts of Parliament by enacting measures, and all subject to no Parliamentary control at Westminster whatsoever”.

In other words, we were seriously blurring in Clause 13 the division of responsibilities between devolved and non-devolved powers. I accept that, since then, amendments have been made that clearly define the nature of the devolved functions and the powers that Welsh Ministers will have in Wales in relation to this Bill. I welcome that. However, in the Government’s response to this fundamental criticism that they were blurring the division of responsibilities, lo and behold the only two precedents that could be dredged up to justify such a power were the European Communities Act 1972, which everyone recognises is unique to say the least, and a subsection from planning legislation of 1998. I have looked at both and I do not think that they are comparable in any shape or form. Fortunately, it seems that, as a result of the pressures that have been applied and the criticisms that have been made, the clause defining the devolved and non-devolved powers relating to Wales has now been reasonably satisfactorily resolved.

What is remarkable is that here we are, post referendum, with power having been transferred to legislate in Cardiff on this and other issues, yet in a Bill of this House we are writing out in detail the procedures that Welsh Ministers have to go through to justify and consult. In other words, we are writing into Welsh Ministers’ responsibilities the super-affirmative procedures that we are applying to UK Ministers. Putting aside the general merits of the issue, I think that it is quite extraordinary that at this moment in time we are seeking to write into a Bill a remarkable clause that lays out in great detail the responsibilities of Welsh Assembly Ministers to consult. Again, I respectfully suggest that that should be the decision of the Assembly.

The Minister’s reply is that on 8 March we suddenly had an approval of all these proposals by the Assembly. Although the powers in Clause 13 have been evident since last October, it is quite clear that Assembly Members have not endorsed the original clause. That is why I have sought to remove the clause. I accept that since then there have been changes. Obviously the conversations that have gone on between Welsh Ministers and UK Ministers and officials have clarified the position in a number of important respects since I tabled my amendment, but I think that we ought to be wary about offering such powers at this stage to Welsh Assembly Ministers. They should seek them themselves from their own Assembly. Having said that, I accept that at this stage in the proceedings it is going to be difficult to turn back. Miss Jane Davidson, the Environment Minister, has fulfilled that portfolio with vision and commitment. She has now retired but I understand her desire to have these types of powers.

Finally, I hope that, if nothing else, the Minister will accept my Amendment 87A. Changes to these bodies will have consequences across the border. Quite rightly there is a provision that the Secretary of State has to consent to any changes made, just as consent has to be sought from the Assembly Ministers and the National Assembly to any orders that could affect Welsh devolved powers in relation to these bodies. However, in this case, only the Secretary of State’s consent is required. I accept that that consent is necessary on any cross-border issues, but surely both Houses here should approve such changes as well. Just as Assembly Ministers and the National Assembly are expected to confirm their consent to changes that might be made by a UK Government, I honestly believe that we should also insist that both Houses of Parliament should approve any Secretary of State’s consent that could alter and change the role, functions and money of the bodies that are covered in these clauses.

I accept and understand that now, because Clause 13 has been transformed and additional safeguards have been put in place, there is a clear distinction between devolved and non-devolved powers in the Bill, but I press the Minister to agree to Amendment 87A, if nothing else, so that this House and the other House have to approve the consent of the Secretary of State in relation to the clauses.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I pick up some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, which will no doubt exercise the House again in future because they touch on the lack of symmetry with regard to devolution. The powers in Scotland and Northern Ireland are different from the powers in Wales, even after the referendum that took place on 3 March. One of the arguments in favour of the changes that came through that referendum was transparency: people must be able to see clearly where responsibility lies so that the Government taking the decision can be judged and held to account. As the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, said, anything that blurs that question undermines the intent of the devolution settlement.

There is also the more general question of the way in which orders are used to effect changes. When one has the capability in democratic fora, such as the National Assembly for Wales, to do things more openly and transparently than when everything is done by order, that should be used. None the less, I take the noble Lord’s point that some concessions and changes have been made to try to meet some of those points as the Bill has progressed.

I believe that Ministers in the National Assembly are broadly content with the provisions and that the Presiding Officer, the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, is likewise content. I have not tabled any amendments, but two or three issues would benefit from further clarification. First, can the Minister give an assurance that in every instance where matters are devolved, it is the Ministers in Wales who have the full powers with regard to any implementation of the Bill applying to Wales? I believe that that is the case, but I would be grateful if we could have that confirmed from the Dispatch Box.

Secondly, where there are cross-border issues, to which the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, referred, can we be assured not only that, when there is an initiative in Wales, Welsh Ministers should consult first with their Westminster counterparts, but that, likewise and equally, when Westminster Ministers propose changes that have a cross-border implication, they, too, will consult Welsh Ministers before taking any action? That again concerns symmetry and transparency and ensures that there is harmonious co-operation on such issues.

Thirdly, when Bills or orders before either Chamber in Westminster have an implication for Wales in matters that are devolved, can we have an assurance that consultation will take place much earlier in the process as the Bills or orders proceed through their scrutiny in Parliament? That earlier consideration would be very valuable, as it would have been in the context of S4C, for example, which we have debated under the Bill.

This applies not only to matters that are devolved; there are also matters that are not devolved or not fully devolved where there is specific relevance for Wales. I would imagine that, in the spirit of the co-operation described in the amendments, there will be full consultation on those matters also. I press that any such consultation should take place as early as possible so that there is full engagement and the response to consultation can be built into that process. With those few comments, I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, perhaps I may first declare an interest. Between 2003 and 2006, I was a member of the S4C authority, and my son, daughter, son-in-law, daughter-in-law and my wife—and I occasionally—receive some benefit from participating in their programmes. My great interest by far, however, is as a Welsh speaker and a television viewer in Wales.

I support Amendment 83 standing in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno. I also speak to Amendment 113D, standing in my name.

As has been said, this is a very sensitive subject in Wales. When I entered the Commons in 1974 the structure of television in Wales caused immense frustration to both language camps. Welsh language television programmes were carried by both BBC and ITV main channels in Wales, a small proportion of which were at peak viewing hours. Non-Welsh-speaking viewers were frustrated at having programmes they could not understand thrust upon them. Equally, Welsh speakers were frustrated that at best they received a fragmented service, with BBC and HTV duplicating news and current affairs programmes. The sum of the parts just did not add up to a comprehensive service. Most of the programmes were away from peak hours. There were protests; many language activists refused to pay their television licence fee; and some went to prison.

Before the 1979 general election, the Conservative Party promised a dedicated channel for the Welsh language. A few weeks after the election, the then Home Secretary, in a speech in Cambridge, announced that the Conservative Government had done their first U-turn, abandoned their election promise and were not going to provide a single-channel solution. This led to massive protests, which culminated in Plaid Cymru’s former leader, Gwynfor Evans, announcing that, unless the Government kept their word and provided a Welsh channel, he would starve himself, if necessary, to death. Thousands protested, including many senior people in Wales. Hundreds of us refused to pay our television licence; I myself went to court for so doing, as did many colleagues.

Cutting a long story short, the Government realised that they had badly misjudged the situation. People from all parties intervened. The noble Lords, Lord Crickhowell and Lord Roberts of Conwy, both Welsh Office Ministers at the time, pressed colleagues with the strength of representations they were receiving from figures such as the Archbishop of Wales, the former chief civil servant in the Welsh Office, Sir Goronwy Daniel, and the former Secretary of State for Wales, Cledwyn Hughes, later Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos.

It matters not for the purpose of this debate whose representations carried most weight or for what reason. Suffice it to say that the Thatcher Government recanted. Discretion was quite rightly the better part of valour. A further U-turn took place and the channel was given the go-ahead. The rest is history.

However, understanding the significance of that history is essential to understanding the situation which faces us today, which seems almost like a rerun of history. For the first time since 1979, last May we had a new incoming Conservative Government. The Conservatives had during the preceding election campaign made no reference whatever to their intention to restructure S4C. As in 1979, with no consultation in Wales, policy was reversed after the election. Need I say more?

As has been said, the Welsh language is spoken by 20 per cent of the 3 million people living in Wales, amounting to about 600,000 people. There are probably a further 100,000 Welsh speakers living in the rest of the UK. It has been estimated that 57 per cent of homes in Wales have at least one person who understands Welsh. S4C is watched by more than 600,000 people in the course of an average week.

That figure is less than the reach of almost 1 million people which existed six years ago, which has been mentioned. There are two reasons for the change, both associated with the changeover to digital television. First, while it undertook analogue transmissions, S4C broadcast English-language Channel 4 programmes during off-peak hours when it was not transmitting Welsh programmes. Clearly, when those were no longer available, many English monoglots no longer tuned in to S4C. Secondly, digital switchover led many viewers of all four old analogue terrestrial channels to migrate to explore the offering available elsewhere. S4C was not immune to that trend. The drop in viewers was predicted by the DCMS as far back as 2005. Having suffered those setbacks, I am glad to say that the graph has turned over the past 12 months, with an increase of 10 per cent in the channel’s reach across the UK to an average level of 616,000 in 2010. In the week ending 23 January, almost 1 million people tuned in across Britain—no doubt aided by the fact that the Cardiff City against Stoke City FA Cup match was being broadcast live.

It is also worth emphasising that the average programme viewing figures have been affected by the setting up of the brilliant toddlers’ space called Cyw, which provides programmes for the under-fives on weekday mornings between 7 am and 1 pm. Those programmes can never aspire to more than the few thousand viewers: the available cohort is probably no more than 15,000 and the likely viewership under 5,000.

Some people have poured contempt on figures as low as that, yet as a service it is critical for language transmission, particularly in households in English-speaking parts of Wales. I am glad that Cyw was awarded international recognition in New York earlier this year. The facile use of statistics by DCMS Ministers to denigrate S4C has been unworthy and reflects a failure to understand the reality of the Welsh language, the channel and its role.

I make one thing quite clear. There is no question of saying that everything has to stay exactly as it has been over recent years. Indeed, S4C has in recent years already cut back its central staff from 210 to 154 at present, and is committed to further reductions down to 114. Surely that is an adequate indication of its intent.

Everyone in Wales realises that, in the current financial constraints, all services funded by the public purse are likely to face cutbacks and S4C cannot be immune from these. To that extent, the funding formula of RPI, which has looked after S4C for two decades, cannot be regarded as sacrosanct. We did, however, note last weekend the emphasis of the Prime Minister, David Cameron, in Cardiff when he stated that Wales was being protected from the worst level of the cuts hitting other parts of the UK because of our difficult economic position, and that the average cuts would be 2 per cent per annum over the next four years. I am sure that S4C, however reluctantly, could live with cuts of that order, but not with the 24 per cent cuts in real terms that have been predicted—or more likely some 40 per cent in cash terms over that period.

The importance of securing guaranteed funding for the channel, removed from the annual political dogfight, was the reason it was safeguarded in legislation by the RPI formula. Unpicking that legislation, however inevitable in today’s climate, is not something to be undertaken lightly. There is, however, a feeling that any cash cutbacks to be faced by S4C should be no greater than those faced by other public services.

The worst aspect of this saga is probably the way in which it has been handled by DCMS Ministers. Decisions were taken without any meaningful discussion with those in Wales who have a legitimate interest in these matters, and without any engagement with S4C itself, its audience, or its stakeholders in Wales. We should also remember that some 40 private companies are dependent to a greater or lesser extent on S4C and will be affected by the changes which were unilaterally announced by the DCMS last year. S4C, in fact, paid over £88 million into the Welsh economy in 2010—money that has been vital in building up the private sector television and film industry in Wales so that it can compete in world markets.

The initial discussions with the BBC were overwhelmingly at a UK level, with even BBC Wales out on a limb. Involvement with S4C itself has been less than open, with the channel finding out at second hand what DCMS Ministers had in mind. The DCMS seems to have studiously avoided engaging directly with the Government of Wales, despite the fact that both the Welsh language and education are fully devolved functions and that S4C has a significant contribution to make to both those portfolios. Furthermore, when the junior DCMS Minister in another place, Mr Vaizey, appeared before the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs on 18 January, he admitted—he almost boasted—that no, he had not ever watched a single S4C programme. This was despite the fact that he had ministerial responsibility for the channel and that 80 per cent of S4C’s output could be watched with subtitles.

Your Lordships will hardly be surprised that over recent weeks there has been growing demand for responsibility for S4C to be transferred from the DCMS to the National Assembly. This has been augmented following last Thursday’s referendum. To my mind, there appear to be three elements which are essential for a solution to gain support in Wales. First, there has to be an acceptance that S4C is currently an independent public body, set up by statute. It is not acceptable for such a body to be abolished at the whim of a Minister using Henry VIII-type powers to do so. That is why I included in my Amendment 113D a provision that the powers given to the Minister at Westminster can only be used with the consent of Ministers of the Government of Wales.

It should be noted that those in the Assembly recognise that there must be change. Reference has already been made to the letter sent to David Cameron dated 29 October 2010 and signed by all party leaders in the Assembly, which proposed,

“a comprehensive examination of all aspects related to the governance and regulatory oversight of S4C, including where political responsibility should lie, on the basis of ensuring a secure and sustainable funding stream for the Channel”.

That was a very positive proposal, but it does not seem to have led to anything. Whatever new structure might eventually transpire, I would urge that the corporate and commercial independence of S4C should be guaranteed. I am not persuaded that this can be done by bolting S4C on to the structure of the BBC. If it was, the campaigning target in Wales will inevitably switch to securing that what is currently BBC Wales becomes more independent from the BBC in London. I know that there is sympathy for such restructuring in Scotland and in some quarters in Northern Ireland. However, such fundamental changes should be part of a comprehensive new communication Act, not matters that arise from the ill thought-out schedules to a rushed Public Bodies Bill.

Secondly, whatever the model of the constitutional governance of S4C, there is also the question of the editorial independence of the channel. If the corporate independence of S4C is guaranteed, then of course its editorial freedom should per se be implicit in such a solution. If anything less than full independence is provided, the editorial freedom of S4C becomes a pressing issue, and it would have to guarantee the right of S4C to reject the editorial line taken by the BBC or, indeed, by politicians.

Thirdly, and crucially, there is the issue of the guarantee of finance. I have no objection whatever to S4C being funded from the licence fee because the proposal has much logic. However, if it is to be funded from the licence fee, that must—it really must—be done through a route that is independent of the BBC, as has already been mentioned. Once S4C becomes a supplicant of the BBC, it is finished. He who pays the piper calls the tune. It is my belief that S4C should have a proportion of the licence fee safeguarded by statute, perhaps around 2 per cent of the total licence fee take for the UK. The present formula gives S4C £90 million a year from the DCMS budget. The department sees its contribution dropping from £90 million down to £6.7 million by 2013, a 90 per cent cut in its contribution. Perhaps the Government of Wales might be able to contribute a sum similar to that £6.7 million and thereby secure an equal voice in terms of the channel’s future. Securing an acceptable financial deal is basic to S4C and to retaining any meaningful independence for the channel.

Whatever way things move forward, there is a pressing need for the Government to clarify how they see the channel being funded post 2015. At present, there is a vacuum and great uncertainty, and frankly that is unacceptable to the small private companies in the sector which may be reluctant to invest if they feel that there is no ongoing financial certainty. But it is not enough to guarantee funding for the independent producers, important though that is. S4C itself needs some £20 million a year to maintain essential services such as transmission costs of over £7 million a year, subtitling costs, programme and viewer research, promotion of the channel and its legal and administrative responsibilities.

Securing a stable, practical and sustainable model for the future of S4C is immensely complicated and not something to be decided on the margins by unamendable orders in Parliament. It is therefore my preferred option for your Lordships’ House to cut S4C entirely from this Bill and, if necessary, for the Government to bring forward new proposals after proper consultation in Wales and elsewhere as part of the development of a communications Bill in a few years’ time. I hope that the Minister will accept at least the spirit of Amendment 113D on such a basis, but if she is not prepared to give a commitment to explore these possibilities and to come back with the necessary amendments on Report, I hope very much that the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, will press Amendment 83 to a vote and that it is supported by noble Lords on all sides as an indication made by this Chamber that the Government really must give further thought to this matter. Whichever way, I urge the Government to think again long and carefully on such a sensitive issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Rawlings]

I appreciate what my noble friend Lord Thomas said, and I am getting there, but if I am interrupted all the way through, I will not be able to get there. I will come to that point.

The reservation of broadcasting is for sensible reasons. We have both European and international broadcasting obligations, and it is appropriate for those obligations to be secured on a UK basis, largely because of the nature of broadcasting itself. It is clear that spectrum does not respect boundaries, and we know that S4C can be and is viewed in parts of England. We are committed to ensuring that all the nations in the UK are properly served with broadcasts which suit their individual needs, but it is right that it should continue to be a UK function to do so.

The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport works closely with the Secretary of State for Wales on S4C matters to make certain that a Welsh perspective is fully taken into account. The interests of S4C will be protected by the coalition Government and the new arrangements. In addition, to make certain that the Welsh aspects are fully taken into account, the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport and the Secretary of State for Wales have agreed new arrangements whereby Wales Office Ministers will be involved in all ministerial meetings relating to S4C. Wales Office officials will be involved in the drafting of all submissions on S4C matters. I hope that that satisfies the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands.

In recognition of the importance of Welsh language programming and in the light of the changing financial situation, the Government believe that the best way for the audience to have a high-quality service is through a partnership with the BBC. My officials are currently in talks with the BBC and S4C about the arrangements for such a partnership. A review of the service, which should cover both its funding and output, will be conducted towards the end of the current spending review period. It is important that we give the partnership some time to grow and to deliver the efficiencies and increases in quality that we fully believe can be achieved.

I assure the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, that DCMS is in discussion with the BBC and S4C to develop the new partnership arrangements. DCMS officials have engaged with Welsh independent producers as part of that process, and we continue to do so.

[Lord Wigley]

I am grateful to the Minister. Can she confirm that the discussions that she mentioned—DCMS officials discussing with the BBC, S4C and the independents—took place before the decision was made?

[Baroness Rawlings]

These discussions have been ongoing throughout. The noble Lord also asked whether there was prior consultation with the Welsh Assembly Government. Given the scale and pace of the spending review and the licence fee settlement discussions, it was not practical to have in-depth discussions with all the interested parties ahead of the announcement. The timeframe reflected the Government's desire to put the UK finances in order.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 7th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I might have to spend a few minutes on this but I hope I can satisfy most of the points that have been raised by noble Lords. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Maclennan for moving this amendment on behalf of his noble friend Lord Greaves.

As noble Lords will know, IDBs manage flood risk and the drainage of agricultural land. In doing so, they also seek to conserve and enhance the environment in those areas of special drainage need where they operate. They play an important role, which is recognised by their inclusion as flood risk management authorities in the Flood and Water Management Act 2010. Like my honourable friend Mr Benyon, I pay tribute to what the IDBs did in the manner that was cited by the noble Baroness, Lady Quin. She also made it clear that the Land Drainage Act 1991 sets out the IDBs’ functions and the arrangements under which they operate, but reminded us that those are based on considerably earlier legislation. She took us back to the 13th century. I do not know whether there was legislation at that stage but she is certainly right in saying that one can go back a long way.

The main issues that arise are restrictive arrangements on governance, limits on the functions of the IDBs and burdensome procedures for changing boundaries and other arrangements. In respect of governance, dealt with under Clause 3 and Schedule 3, the law currently means that, even where most of the funding is from local authorities, an authority can have no more than one member more than half the total membership of a board—the so-called bare majority. This weakens the incentives for efficiency, which would be present with a stronger relationship between sources of funding and levels of representation. I hope that the noble Baroness will accept that point. In addition, despite the wider environmental function of IDBs, there is no provision for specialist members to represent those functions, or other wider interests, on the boards. Experience has shown that specialists can add greatly to the effectiveness of boards.

In respect of the functions of IDBs, in terms of Clause 5 and Schedule 5, it is not proposed to transfer those functions to any other body—I give that assurance—or to take away any functions. However, simplification of some of the burdensome procedural requirements so that, for example, IDBs can formalise their rules or procedure with Environment Agency consent, rather than ministerial consent, requires modification of the functions of IDBs. In addition, as the Flood and Water Management Act 2010 imposes a sustainable development duty in relation to IDBs’ flood risk functions, and as their flood risk and drainage roles are hard to separate, it is important to align these duties to improve clarity and certainty. For example, where certain works have a bearing on soil carbon, this would be a relevant consideration whether the aim of the work was flood risk management or land drainage.

For the sake of flexibility and efficiency, we are also exploring the possibility of IDBs having the power to carry out other related water management functions in their areas. The Government will keep this under review and will propose a transfer of functions to the IDBs if and when that is appropriate. It is for these reasons that we have included IDBs in Schedule 5. This will mean a more flexible framework for IDBs, which will allow them to adapt to change and therefore put them on a stronger footing. I repeat the assurances that my honourable friend has given and his phrase about IDBs being part of the big society.

As I have explained, at present the procedure for IDB boundary changes, amalgamations and reconstitutions —that is, changes to board memberships and other matters relating to IDBs—is very lengthy and cumbersome, involving advertising and consideration of objections by the Environment Agency and Defra. We would like to simplify this process by giving the Environment Agency the power to approve these changes other than, for example, in the dispute cases. This is what the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, referred to. I make it clear to the noble Lord that cases described as “non-contentious” are those where there is no dispute. Therefore, in the non-disputed cases there would be no need to have ministerial involvement. I hope that that assurance will be sufficient to satisfy the noble Lord. The aim of that is to reduce the bureaucratic controls and to allow IDBs to be more responsive to change. For this reason the Environment Agency is also listed in Schedule 5.

There is also a lengthy procedure involving Defra and the Environment Agency in respect of varying maps that show the extent of watercourses deemed to be “main river”. The Environment Agency is responsible for those watercourses. Hence some changes can be significant but others relate simply to alterations in the course of a river. We propose to give the agency the power to make these changes in respect of uncontested, non-contentious changes. That again would reduce unnecessary administrative costs.

The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, asked about the legislative timetable and whether there were other more appropriate Bills in which to tackle this issue. There is no guarantee that a water Bill will be brought forward. From my own experience over the years—no doubt this is the experience also of the noble Baroness, Lady Quin—I know that there is uncertainty about the legislative timetable and about obtaining the agreement of colleagues. The noble Baroness gives a wry grin but it is sometimes difficult to agree on relatively minor changes. Therefore, we think that it is prudent to provide for these relatively minor changes in the Bill rather than to delay them further. However, I give an assurance that the Bill requires consultation to take place before any order is made. I guarantee that that will take place.

Government Amendments 72A and 94A in the name of my noble friend Lord Taylor restrict the order-making power of government Ministers to IDBs that are wholly or mainly in England. This is a result of reaching agreement with the Welsh Assembly that it is more appropriate for Welsh Ministers to have this power for those IDBs which are wholly or mainly in Wales.

[Lord Wigley]

Hear, hear!

[Lord Henley]

I am very grateful for that “Hear, hear” from the Cross Benches. For the reasons I have explained, I hope that the Committee will agree to the Government’s amendments and that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw the amendment.