Brexit: Support for Remaining in the EU

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 16th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I thank my noble friend for his constructive contribution, as always. We have to accept yesterday’s vote in Parliament. We have to talk to all sides of Parliament because there needs to be a majority for something. I am sure that the Prime Minister is up for constructive discussions with all sides.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, in view of the statement made by the Prime Minister yesterday that she will seek a consensus, will the Government now rule out a no-deal Brexit?

Brexit: Preparedness for EU Exit

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Thursday 25th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

We are looking at all of the potential implications. We are discussing with partners such as ports and ferry operators all the potential implications of no deal. We continue to negotiate to get a deal—that is what we want—but we are putting in place the appropriate contingency plans, operations and processes in case of no deal, as are other European countries, because that is the responsible thing to do.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, if the NAO’s warnings are correct, is it not crass stupidity for the Government not to contemplate putting back the Article 50 day by enough time to accommodate the necessary provisions if we indeed crash out without a deal?

Brexit: EU Commission

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 10th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

As on so many of these matters, the noble Lord speaks great sense, unlike most of the rest of his party. One of the great advantages of Brexit is that we will leave the common fisheries policy, one of the great environmental disasters of our time. We will be an independent coastal nation and we will determine our own fishing policy in future.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Will the Minister address a question raised in the press this morning about a danger to do with lambs and sheep being exported to Europe after Brexit, whether it is a hard or a negotiated Brexit? A logjam in the ports or on the ships may mean that sheep and lambs will be held for days on end in inappropriate circumstances. What are the Government doing to address that?

[Lord Callanan]

There were concerning reports. All live exports to Europe need to have a journey log approved by the Animal and Plant Health Agency. We would not approve a journey log in the unlikely event of disruption at the borders. Animals would instead be kept on farms or be redirected to abattoirs in the UK.

Brexit: Negotiations

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 9th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

As I said in previous answers, the House of Commons has rejected the option of remaining in the EEA, and our legal position is that we will leave the EEA when we leave the EU. Seeking to remain in the EEA does not pass the test that the Prime Minister has set for our future partnership. It would not deliver control of our borders or our laws, and it would mean continuing to accept all EU single market rules, so I do not think that is the right future for Britain.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the Minister has stressed once again that the Government are considering and planning for every possibility. In that case, will he confirm that the Government are planning for the possibility of a no-deal Brexit and in those circumstances for a vote in Parliament requesting a confirmatory vote by the people? Can he confirm how long it would take for a confirmatory vote of that sort to be properly organised and take place?

[Lord Callanan]

I said we are planning for a no-deal Brexit. I do not know what the noble lord means by a “confirmatory vote”. If he means a second referendum, then, no, we are not planning for a second referendum, because we have already had a referendum and the vote was clear.

Brexit: Negotiations and No-deal Contingency Planning

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 4th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Of course we are dealing with a lot of different interlocutors as well as the official EU negotiating team, represented by Michel Barnier, and the Article 50 working group. We are also liaising with individual member states. It is fair to say that there is a variety of opinions. We think that we have set out a compromise. It was obtained at some difficult political cost, but it offers a way forward. A number of member states and individuals in the EU have commented that it offers a workable and viable way forward and they look forward to engaging on it. Of course, it is a negotiation. There have been various noises off, but we still await the official Commission response. Senior members of the task force have made it clear that they think it offers a viable discussion and way forward.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to the Statement mentioning the wish of the Government to cover every eventuality. In those circumstances, can he confirm that a question was raised in Brussels about the position on 29 March if we are within reach of an agreement but are unable to reach it within that deadline, and whether the deadline can be adjusted in order to seek and achieve agreement if that is possible?

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Lord is correct that Article 50 sets out a mechanism by which the process can be extended, but we are very clear that we are not going to apply for it to be extended. We leave on 29 March and we believe that an agreement can be negotiated well before then. It will need to be done so that we can pass the appropriate legislation in the House of Commons and in this House.

Brexit: Preparations and Negotiations

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, this debate has been superseded by events since the Chequers meeting two weeks ago, when the White Paper was supposedly agreed by a united Cabinet.

No one can oppose the objective of a White Paper. Parliament, citizens and our European partners have a right to know how the Government see the Brexit process moving forward and to know the choices the Government have made and for what reason. But why on earth has it taken so long to appear, and what benefits were obtained by such delays? After two long years of preparing for this moment, we are in real danger of taking a path that leads us to a no-deal Brexit. For the Government to have set, over a year ago, a Brexit deadline of 29 March 2019, and not until now to have spelled out their intended course to meet that deadline, reflects incredible indecision. In addition, for the former Brexit Minister David Davis to have been engaged directly in negotiation with Michel Barnier for less than five hours—yes, five hours in two years—borders on a dereliction of duty.

If it was possible for the Welsh Government to have produced their own White Paper 18 months ago, why on earth has it taken the UK Government so long? That paper, entitled Securing Wales’ Future, accepted the reality of Brexit but spelt out the essential safeguards needed for manufacturing industry, tourism and agriculture. It was quickly recognised by European Parliament negotiator Guy Verhofstadt as providing a realistic basis for negotiation. Had the Welsh White Paper been adopted by the Government 12 months ago, we would now have a potential Brexit deal which would satisfy manufacturing, industry and agricultural exporters, and it would have provided a solution to the Northern Ireland border and Gibraltar issues. It would have been accomplished within a timescale that enabled other challenges to be addressed: aviation, security, Euratom, healthcare, citizenship, and an acceptable compromise on the movement of people. It is now increasingly unlikely that agreement can be secured within the Government’s self-imposed deadline of 29 March next year, and that we shall consequently crash out without a deal.

The White Paper recognises the need to provide tariff-free access for UK manufactured goods and agricultural products into the EU market, and for this to be frictionless so that supply chains can work without hindrance. This is as pressing a requirement for UK exporters as it is for those trading across the border in Ireland. The White Paper recognises that there will need to be common standards and safeguards to ensure that one partner does not steal a competitive edge, and it recognises the need for a mutually acceptable judicial process. Yet, despite recognising these factors, it steps back from the obvious solution of maintaining a single market and a customs union—a framework endorsed by this Chamber when the Brexit Bill was before us, and which was rejected in the Commons last week only by cheating in the pairing system. We are told that such a single market and customs union agreement would jeopardise the claimed benefits which await us from trading with the rest of the world. Yet this week the EU has concluded a trade deal with Japan as good as the UK could expect to negotiate on a bilateral basis. The White Paper proposes a convoluted system of mutual charging of tariffs on goods entering the UK from the rest of the world, which are sold on into EU markets. We are asked to opt for a pig in a poke, via a complex, bureaucratic customs arrangement.

This nonsense has to stop. Unless people wake up and demand a confirmatory vote to boot this disastrous course to oblivion, progress must be on the basis of a customs union and single market participation. We should seek a sensible compromise on freedom of movement which recognises workers’ rights to move to fill job vacancies but accepts limitations on open-ended population movements, which might cause economic or social problems. There is widespread sympathy within the EU for such an approach, and the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, focused on that issue very effectively.

Such a sensible Brexit is achievable, but it is not on the agenda because the Government are in hock to the extreme Brexit wing of the Tory party. I do not usually read the Sunday Express, but I could not help but notice its headline yesterday:

“Brexit: Time to Start Again”.


To start again—in all seriousness! David Davis is quoted as saying that the Brexit negotiating process will have to “start again” and that it would not be the end of the world if Britain left the EU empty-handed. That confirms the worst fear of many of my colleagues: that it never was the intention of Mr Davis or Boris Johnson ever to have any deal, and that they have spun it out for two years knowing that at this late stage it will be impossible to secure a deal ahead of the 29 March deadline. This means that we are heading for a crash. If that is not the Government’s intention, let the Minister confirm that changing the 29 March date is under consideration. We need clarification on this before Parliament adjourns for the Summer Recess.

To fail to allow adequate time to negotiate a practical Brexit will confirm our worst fears that a no-deal Brexit has now become the Government’s expectation. In that case, the sooner the better that this Government are replaced by a cross-party Government, pledged to secure a Brexit based on a customs union and single market engagement. The sensible majority in both Houses should take control of these matters and steer these islands away from the disastrous cliff edge towards which we are heading, and for which the ordinary working people of these islands will most assuredly pay the price.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, to say that I am fuming at dropping this amendment would be to put it mildly. I am incredibly disappointed. It would have been a move forward. We have such fine words from the Government, but we do not have the action. Having said that, I admit that the Government’s compromise amendment has moved us forward, but just not far enough. Therefore, as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, just said, this is unfinished business and will come back.

The Government promised us the same standards as the EU has given us, and they have backtracked on that. It is deeply offensive not only to this House but to the whole country that the Government have been so profligate with a promise they made and then decided not to honour it. I deeply regret the amendment not being moved, and we will be back.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, at earlier stages of the Bill, when an amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, was debated, the Minister made the point that the amendment as then tabled could constrain the devolved authorities. Will he explain to the House how his amendment has overcome that problem?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, government Motion B follows the debate that we have been having throughout the passage of the Bill on the enforcement of environmental principles. On each occasion, noble Lords have voted on a cross-party basis around the Chamber to send a message that the Government’s proposals are not good enough and do not represent the protections for the environment that we currently enjoy in the EU.

At Third Reading this House supported, with a significant majority, an amendment that set out how current EU rights could be replicated in UK law. I am sorry that the Government did not feel able to support it when it went back to the Commons. They did, however, finally and reluctantly—as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, said—come up with their own alternative. It is a step forward, and I am pleased that many of the arguments made by our side of the House, and across the Chamber, have had some impact.

As the Minister will know, the views that we expressed are supported by tens of thousands of individuals, activists and NGOs around the country who have campaigned vigorously on these issues. So we have made progress, but there remains—as my noble friends said—unfinished business. We will continue, therefore, to use every opportunity to achieve what we have been promised. All we are trying to do is replicate what we already have—and to be assured that it will be in place on Brexit day.

At the heart of environmental protection we need a green watchdog, on a statutory footing and independent of government, that can take appropriate enforcement action against Ministers and arm’s-length bodies when they ignore their environmental responsibilities: in other words, a watchdog that replicates the current role of the EU Commission. We also want an obligation on Ministers to act in accordance with the provisions of the Bill, rather than simply to “have regard to” the provisions, which is a much less stringent legal requirement and could lead to considerable legal uncertainty. Finally, we want to ensure that our exit from the EU does not end, by accident or design, in a diminution of rights and powers otherwise enjoyed in the EU.

It is important that these issues are resolved because, as we debated at Third Reading, the Government’s proposed alternative—the environmental principles and governance Bill—will not be available, at the earliest, until after the next Queen’s Speech. For many of us, moreover, the consultation document produced in advance of that Bill is a thin and unpromising start to the promises made by the Secretary of State to deliver a world-leading environmental body, with independent, statutory backing, to hold the Government to account.

I hope, therefore, that the Minister will address our ongoing concerns, despite the progress that has been made. I hope that he will make it clear that what we have before us is a minimum set of proposals and that negotiations will continue on the details. I hope, too, that he fully understands that we are not going away and will press these arguments at every opportunity.

Brexit Transition: European Parliament Membership

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Thursday 7th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Well, Parliament will get the opportunity to do so when we have negotiated the withdrawal. We have said that we will put it to a meaningful vote in both Houses.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, in answering me yesterday the Minister said the Government felt it was important that they planned for all eventualities. Why is he not planning for this one?

[Lord Callanan]

Because we think this is an eventuality that is not going to come about.

Brexit: Negotiations

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 6th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

As the noble Lord is aware, we have offered the EU unconditional security guarantees, as is right and proper, and we are negotiating in good faith to achieve the free-trade relationship that he talked about.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, a moment ago the Minister made reference to the Government’s no-deal plan. Will he therefore confirm that the Government are seriously confronting the likelihood of leaving without a deal?

[Lord Callanan]

As I also said, we hope there will be a deal. We are working towards a deal and negotiating in good faith, as we believe our European partners are. However, as a responsible Government, it is important that we plan for all eventualities.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 16th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, were the changes in relation to the Welsh devolution settlement discussed with the Government of Wales?

[Baroness Goldie]

I have no specific information about that. The amendments are intended to help the Welsh Assembly and, indeed, assist any Government in the Welsh Assembly by ensuring that we avoid confusion and greatly improve clarity. I hope that the noble Lord will accept the good faith of the Government in trying to do everything possible to assist the devolved settlement in Wales. With that clarification, I beg to move Amendments 3, 4, 5 and 6.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am delighted to support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and to speak to the amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, both of which I support. I do so having listened to every moment of the debate in the National Assembly yesterday and to large parts of the debate in the Scottish Parliament yesterday evening. What came through loud and clear was the incredulity—across party lines, even though the National Assembly for Wales accepted the agreement reached by the Minister, Mark Drakeford—on the very point touched on in the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, namely that consent can mean consent or that consent is refused or consent has not been approved. For consent to be interpreted in that way was just unbelievable to Members there, and there was some doubt as to whether the Minister was carrying his troops with him. Indeed, Mark Drakeford himself was clearly not at ease in defending the agreement that he and the Welsh Government had approved. In his closing speech he said:

“Of course we should be ambitious for even more ground to be gained, and we are too. And I said in my opening remarks: there is more that we want to achieve. We have ambitions beyond the agreement”.


The fact is that a form of words has been reached, which are in the Bill, but they do not succeed in getting hearts and minds behind them. When one is going to something as fundamental as this agreement, which will need to be tested when real issues arise, there needs to be buy-in from all parties. Will the Minister therefore confirm that further discussions may take place with Mike Russell and his Scottish ministerial colleagues? If progress is made there to move the settlement to a form of words that is more acceptable, will the Minister confirm that that form of words would be equally available for Wales and Northern Ireland and not just be a reward for Scotland for standing out against the decisions that have been taken?

What hit Members in both the Scottish Parliament and in the National Assembly was the implication of these agreements when it comes down to the nitty-gritty. The element that stood out most clearly, in both debates interestingly enough, was public procurement. As Dr Dai Lloyd, an Assembly Member in Cardiff, spelled out, it could mean privatisation by the back door for the National Health Service. That came as quite a shock to many Labour Members, and that very point was made in the Scottish Parliament. In his closing remarks, the Minister, Mike Russell, mentioned that public procurement that leads to probably hundreds of thousands of jobs in Scotland would be affected. As the reality of the settlement hits home, there is a growing unease. We should be heading that off, and if we cannot do so tonight, the opportunity should be taken by the Government in another place, where the new clause can be amended by Members of Parliament. I believe that such amendments are needed.

One consideration that they could perhaps apply themselves to is one not covered by this amendment but which could be covered by further amendments in another place. In bringing regulations that will potentially overrule what the Scottish Parliament or the National Assembly for Wales would decide, or the attitude they might take towards certain proposals, if it is done by instrument through both Houses of Parliament, that lays the whole process open to the fact that the solution is being imposed. Perhaps the Minister and the Government could consider the possibility of dealing with those instruments in the Scottish Grand Committee and the Welsh Grand Committee by Members of Parliament from the two countries, so that at least there would be a feeling that people from Wales and from Scotland are dealing with solutions that are so important.

I personally believe that there need to be changes in the Bill along the lines proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace. I look forward to the Government’s response.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak in support of these amendments. I do so with great trepidation as a non-lawyer, knowing that the noble and learned Lord will be marking my homework—and doing so in front of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, is completely correct to draw our attention to the fact that a constitutionally significant moment has arrived. He is quite right to repeat the questions that he asked before. Whether one considers it a good thing or a bad thing, what happened in Edinburgh yesterday was certainly a big thing—and it could have very serious repercussions.

I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, in wanting to bring out the principles agreed in October, and I am grateful to him for reading them out. But it seems to me that much is going to depend over time on how they are interpreted. Will they be interpreted narrowly or widely? The two key common frameworks are to enable the function of the UK internal market and to ensure that the UK can negotiate and implement international trade agreements. How are these principles going to operate?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I would like to say a word about my attempts for Scotland. I am going to read this from my note, because I have shown it to Michael Russell. As I said to your Lordships, on the Monday before Clause 11 was due to be discussed in Committee, I met a member of the SNP, Ian Blackford, to whom I said that I had not received any briefing from the Scottish Government on that clause. Next day I received briefing from the Lord Advocate and Michael Russell, the Scottish Minister in the consultation on Clause 11. Having carefully thought over what they said, I tabled an amendment to provide a mechanism for the consultation that I thought would meet their concerns, and in Committee I stated my view of the relevant law that would return on Brexit.

On Report the British Government tabled amendments that fully met my suggestions, and indeed went further. I had suggested that, if the consultation failed to reach agreement, the participants should provide an agreed statement of their disagreement to the UK Parliament before it was asked to approve the instrument approving the framework agreement in question. The government amendment also proposed that any dissenter should have an opportunity to state the reasons for their dissent in their own terms. Your Lordships will understand my dismay when I learned from Michael Russell that the Scottish Government could not accept that amendment.

The First Minister of Scotland then wrote to the Lord Speaker with a number of amendments that she asked him to circulate, which he did. My noble and learned friend Lord Hope of Craighead and I decided that we should table the principal amendments in the letter: he would introduce them and I would explain the reasons why we could not support them. This we did. No member of your Lordships’ House questioned my explanations. The First Minister of Scotland has not corresponded with either of us; we have not corresponded with anyone other than Michael Russell and the Lord Advocate on this matter, and I have had talks with the UK Ministers and officials. Michael Russell has publicly and graciously acknowledged the help that my noble and learned friend and I have given, and I thank him for the courtesy he has shown in all his correspondence with us.

I am satisfied that Clause 11 as now amended is entirely in accordance with the devolution settlement, and is an appropriate way of dealing with the unique problem of adjusting the EU provisions for the internal market in the United Kingdom to the post-Brexit situation.

I have had my home in Scotland all my life, having been trained as a Scottish lawyer, and I am profoundly sad that I have been unable to achieve the agreement of the Scottish Government to these proposals. Although my concern was principally with my native land, I am glad that the Government of Wales have accepted the arrangements, and I send my best wishes to those in the other place, in the hope that they will succeed where I have failed.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, as one who—unlike certain other colleagues—has barely missed an hour of the 156 hours of discussions on this Bill, may I say a few words before we send it back to the other place? I join others in thanking the team of Ministers for their patience and good humour, even on occasions when those could have been sorely tested. The noble Lord, Lord Duncan, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, and the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, have had a heavy workload, and I am sure that they and their officials will be glad to see us pass Third Reading. I thank in particular the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, for the way in which he responded, and made himself and his team available to discuss issues of concern. In particular, with his background in the National Assembly, he could readily identify with the concerns emanating from Cardiff Bay, even if his brief did not allow him to respond as fully as many of us—and perhaps even occasionally he himself—might have wished.

I have no doubt that the Bill we now return to the other place is significantly better than the one we received. Ministers should concur with this sentiment. After all, of the almost 200 amendments that have found their way into the Bill, all but 15, and a handful of consequential amendments, have come from the ranks of government itself. Let no one—the Daily Mail or anybody else—claim that this Chamber has delayed proceedings. We have not. The Government have their Bill bang on time, even if, at times, we had to spend 11 hours or more a day on our deliberations to make that possible. The Government clearly needed all this time: as we heard from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, a moment ago, it was only at the very last moment of Report that they were able to move the final form of amendments that they saw necessary to make Clause 11, as was, workable in the way that they desired.