Pension Schemes Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 12th January 2026 Grand Committee

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as a current member and director of a pension trust. I want to take us back to the amendment for a moment. I shall refer to the reference to surpluses made by the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, because it is an indicator of how this Bill is going to move; I suspect we shall get a surplus of comments about surpluses.

I go back to the amendment. We are starting to hear remarks suggesting that this amendment is critical. I do not criticise it at all because this is an enormously complex and comprehensive piece of legislation. Bringing our minds closely to the purpose of what we are going to debate, if ever a piece of legislation required it, this amendment is an essential ingredient. I fully support all parts of this amendment, which seem to encapsulate all the different areas to which we shall give more detailed consideration as we proceed.

However, I want to refer briefly to something already referred to: the matter of pension scheme surpluses under subsection (1)(h) of the proposed new clause to be inserted by Amendment 1. I referred to this at Second Reading; I will not repeat word for word what I said then—that would not be appropriate—but I want to probe my noble friend and, in particular, the Minister on this matter a little.

We all know that, historically, when we had low interest rates in this country, deficits often used to be repaired with any surpluses that might occur in schemes. As a result, employers that did not have DB schemes were obviously at a disadvantage. I am interested in how we might deploy surpluses in future. For instance, will they be deployable for capital expenditure? That seems quite desirable, particularly looking at the economy at present.

My second point concerns crossovers, referred to here, enhancing the contributions that already exist in DC schemes. How on earth can crossovers be legitimately and properly handled? That seems rather difficult to me.

Finally, I turn to surplus sharing. There is a case going on at the moment; I referred to it in my speech at Second Reading so I will not go back to it now. The encouragement of surplus sharing between employers and between members is terribly important. How can that be done fairly and equally? Will we be able to rely—as we should, I believe—on the powers of trustees always to do everything in the best interests of members? Pressures from employers, for instance, must be curbed when it comes to those decisions that might be taken.

It is a difficult area. I know that we will look at it in more detail, but it is worth mentioning at this starting point because this list is perhaps another example of how complicated things are and how we need to get a grip. Whoever has been responsible in the past for legislation in this field, this is an ideal opportunity, which I greatly support, for us to get this right. I therefore fully support Amendment 1 and hope that, as we move forward, we will use those objects as the basis for our discussions.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I apologise that I, too, missed Second Reading, for reasons outside my control. When you are in a party with two or three Members, it is very difficult to spread yourself in all directions. I have an interest in this area going back to when I was a trustee of the National Assembly’s pension scheme some years ago and, before that, I had involvement as financial controller of the Hoover Company and with Mars Ltd, which is one of the foremost companies in these islands.

I want to flag up one point as we look at the generalities in this comprehensive umbrella amendment—the position of employees such as those of Allied Steel and Wire in Cardiff in 2002, who found themselves on their backs without adequate safeguards for the pensions that they had. Over the almost quarter of a century since, those still surviving did not get justice out of the system. Whatever balance we have to strike in terms of risk—which is inevitably part of the equation—benefits, security and the longer term against the shorter term, we must also have some safety nets for those who fall through, through no fault of their own, as did the employees of Allied Steel and Wire.

I commend the Government for the steps they have taken for the coal miners, who have been in a difficult position, but if the coal miners were justified so are the workers at Allied Steel and Wire. I draw to the Government’s attention that the First Minister of Wales, the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, spoke about this last month and called on them to take action to recompense those who have lost out so badly.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

I no longer have any financial interests to declare, having retired from the board of the London Stock Exchange at the end of 2025 after a long tenure, although that indicates that I have some history in that regard. I also have a history of policy engagement with local authority pension funds, the Local Authority Pension Fund Forum and IPO test marketing with various local authority pension funds. That is for background, so that people can understand some of where I have obtained my information.

I added my name to this amendment because I thought it was a good idea to have a list of purposes. We have before us a very long list of regulatory empowerments and, in some places, to do with value for money, I put a little list on the front of them. Somewhere or other, whether in this proposed list at the front, listed throughout or as a mixture of both, it would help us with structure and understanding. We ought to make our Acts of Parliament as readable as possible for the non-specialist. It is also quite important in that regard. It may not be a perfect list; you could ask for “more” instead of “greater” or take the “-er” off the end of words and make it look like it is not criticising. I do not want to go into that, but I did not take it as a criticism. I thought it was a list of what we are trying to do to make things better and, on that basis, I support it.

I would be very pleased if we could all work together to build a list that we were all happy with and that reflected a true convergence of minds. During the passage of the previous Pension Schemes Act, there was an awful lot of working together to try to find the right wording. The Minister was on this side then, and we went through it together with many of the other people in this Room. We should be getting something good up front that tells everybody what it is about, not using it as a way to tie the Government’s hands. I do not look at it like that; I look at it as something that is explanatory. But if it helps in the interpretation, so be it.

If we cannot produce a list like that, I have reservations about whether one should go forward and jump straight into a list. If you do not want it here, you have to put one in every clause, so maybe it is better to try to do a shorter one here. Those are the reasons why I support the amendment. I support the principle of it, and I am more than happy to work at trying to make it something that everybody could sign up to.