Selection of the President of Welsh Tribunals Regulations 2017

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I will be very brief as I do not have a tenth of the background that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, has with regard to legal operations in Wales. But I can from my own knowledge, and by reputation, endorse the comments the noble Lord made about Sir Wyn Williams.

I have one specific question, relating to the Welsh language. As noble Lords will be aware, and as I am sure the Minister has been made well aware, the Welsh language has full official status in Wales now, as it has since the legislation six or seven years ago. From 1967 onwards, it had equal validity, and the 1993 Act gave it equal status with English. That being so, operations of the law in courts and tribunals may take place in Welsh. That is the normal state of affairs in Wales. Proceedings may or may not take place in Welsh, but the choice is there and it is equal handed—as the noble Baroness in the Chair well knows.

In the specifications that have been put down, at Regulation 3(13) there is a list of the characteristics that are “desirable” for the members of the selection panel, including that members should be,

“both men and women … drawn from a range of different racial groups”—

—both fair enough—and have,

“an understanding of the administration of justice in Wales and Welsh devolution arrangements”.

That too is fine. But why is there no paragraph there about having at least some knowledge of the Welsh language, particularly as that will arise from time to time in the work that is being undertaken? I do not object to the instrument in itself, but that should have been covered, unless there is some explanation of which I am not aware.

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

My Lords, I have a very brief, possibly technical question, which is probably because I am not legally qualified or an expert in this matter. Paragraph 3.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum says that,

“the territorial application of this instrument includes Scotland and Northern Ireland”.

Further down, under “Extent and territorial application”, it says:

“The territorial application … is the whole of the United Kingdom”.


I was curious why those two provisions were there and whether it is a standard phrase that appears in all these things. It just seemed a little odd.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to noble Lords and to the noble Baroness for their contributions. I begin with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. I entirely agree with his observations about the importance of maintaining the independence of the judiciary and, equally, of defending the judiciary from inappropriate attack. There is an important distinction to be made between what can be regarded as justified criticism and what is tantamount to abuse. We have to underline that distinction if we are properly to defend the judiciary. Of that there can be no doubt.

On the question of whether these powers should be used, I again entirely agree with the noble Lord. This is the alternative mechanism to be employed, but it is contemplated that it will be employed only in circumstances where there is a breakdown in agreement between various parties. It is not something that is contemplated, but because the Act makes provision for this alternative mechanism it is only appropriate that we should have regulations in place so that, if necessary, it can be employed.

On the matter of who will be the president of the Welsh tribunals and his role so far as defence of tribunal members is concerned, remembering that some of those tribunal members are lay members, it is doubly important there is somebody there who can advise and defend their interests. One of the responsibilities of the President of Welsh Tribunals will be not only the training and guidance of members of the tribunals, but consideration of their welfare. That again is important.

On the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, on the Welsh language, of course we recognise the importance of the Welsh language in the context of proceedings in Wales, but we have to remember that we are making an appointment to the judiciary of England and Wales. While the proceedings of those tribunals may take place in Welsh as distinct from English, it is not considered appropriate that we should extend the criteria for the appointment of this post to include the Welsh language itself.

[Lord Wigley]

I hear what the noble and learned Lord says. There are numerous bodies that have responsibilities that go beyond the borders of Wales where the status of the Welsh language is recognised. I would not have been surprised if there had been no provision at all for equality here on the basis that other legislation covers it, but if we are writing the equality of men and women and racial equality into this, surely it is not unreasonable to write the language in because some of the work will be undertaken in Wales, if not all of it.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

With respect to the noble Lord’s observations, language is not an equality issue in that context in the same way as the other criteria he alluded to. It is a matter of context. Of course it is important we recognise that the use of English and Welsh have equal demands on any tribunal process in Wales, but that is quite distinct from how you go about the appointment criteria.

[Lord Wigley]

I am sorry; I do not want to labour this unduly. The language question has, to a large extent, been put to rest in Wales over recent decades after there was a lot of strong feeling about it on the basis that there was recognition of language being an equality criterion. I do not know whether it is technically so in the legal framework here but, surely in terms of the spirit of what is being done here, it should be accommodated.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

With respect, there is no issue about whether an individual applicant would be prejudiced whether he spoke only Welsh or only English or both. That is why I say, in this context, it does not arise for the purposes of this schedule. If an applicant came forward who did not speak English but spoke only Welsh, there would be no issue about that applying to the suitability of his appointment.

[Lord Wigley]

May I help the Minister? I do not want to see issues like this boiling up to become another bullet in a language war, as it were. It is the sort of thing that we need a harmonious approach towards. Equality is regarded as being relevant in a language context, as in other contexts, and therefore, if it is necessary to write it into the terms as they are here, I cannot see why they are not broad enough to encapsulate language, but I have made my point.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

If I can make one short addition, it is that these regulations are concerned with the technical operation of judicial appointments and therefore, again, our view is that the question does not arise in this context.

I turn to territorial application. My understanding is that technically, in the context of tribunal appointments, we are looking across the UK and not just at England and Wales, which is why the regulation extends as it does. There are circumstances in which tribunal membership can move between the various jurisdictions.

On the consultation process and diversity in particular, diversity is of course taken extremely seriously. I believe that we have some figures with regard to tribunal membership. I am not sure that I have figures with regard to the chairmanship of tribunals. As regards male and female membership, about 40% of tribunal members are female. In the senior courts, the figures are of course different but, for tribunals, the figure is as high as it is anywhere. As far as BAME in tribunals is concerned, the number is about 10%. Interestingly, perhaps, we even have a figure for those who are of a non-barrister background. I am not quite sure what a non-barrister background amounts to, but 66% of tribunal judges come from a non-barrister background. On whether that is regarded as a good thing or a bad thing, I will not comment. If the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, wishes to have figures about the chairmanship of tribunals, and their gender mix, I can undertake to write to him, if those figures are available. I do not know if they are; I know that the overall figures are there, as I have just mentioned. That, I hope, addresses the points that noble Lords have raised.