Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Wigley]

29A: Clause 3, page 2, line 37, at end insert—
“( ) To the extent that this section may be applicable to Sianel Pedwar Cymru (“S4C”), only subsection (2)(a) to (c) and (g) and subsection (3)(a), (b) and (d) shall apply.”

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I declare my interest in matters relating to S4C, as I did in Committee. I beg to move Amendment 29A in my name and to speak to the other amendments: in particular, Amendment 34B in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, and Amendment 40 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno.

I shall not speak at length, as I spelt out the general arguments in relation to S4C in Committee. Our concerns expressed at that time remain. They were particularly eloquently expressed during Committee by the noble and learned Lords, Lord Morris of Aberavon and Lord Howe of Aberavon, the noble Lords, Lord Elystan-Morgan, Lord Richard and Lord Rowlands, and, at that time, by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, himself. I look forward to hearing his comments tonight. The Government have tabled no amendments to assuage the feelings we expressed.

In many ways, the amendments are being taken tonight in the wrong order. Amendment 40 would remove S4C from Schedule 4 and, essentially, from the Bill. That is what most of us from Wales want. Amendment 34B would bring S4C into Schedule 3 —something which many of us regard with trepidation, because that gives the Minister the power to apply the provisions of Clause 3 to S4C; and the powers are extremely wide ranging. It would allow the Minister to modify the constitutional arrangements of S4C in how employees exercise its functions, the power to employ staff, how it runs its committees and how it is accountable to the Minister. All those seem little short of giving the Minister powers by order to micromanage S4C.

Amendment 29A is moved not only to get my retaliation in first but to cope with the unfortunate eventuality that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, should be carried and that S4C becomes part of Schedule 3. Amendment 29A restricts the power given to the Minister to subsection (2)(a) to (c) and (g) and subsection (3)(a), (b) and (d). That would still allow the Minister to be involved with the appointment of the chairman—as he apparently is very much at the moment. It would allow changes to the body and to the offices. It would still allow the powers with regard to reports and accounts, which are perfectly normal requirements in the circumstances, but it cuts out the temptation to micromanage S4C.

I shall be very interested to hear the justification of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, for inserting S4C into Schedule 3. Clearly, the Government did not think that those powers were necessary—otherwise they would have put them in the Bill or tabled a government amendment at this stage—or are the Government leaving their dirty work to a trusted pair of hands, who has bailed them out on so many occasions in Wales over the years? As I said, I would rather that Amendment 34B were not moved at all, or, if it is, that it is defeated. Equally, I urge that Amendment 40, to which I have added my name, should be carried. If it is rejected by the Government, it should be taken to a vote.

--- Later in debate ---

Finally, I suggest again that protecting S4C as an independent service, with independent commissioning and scheduling, and with a distinct editorial voice is absolutely at the heart of this coalition Government. It is a challenging market and savings must be made, but we must be under no illusions. This Government will do whatever it takes to protect S4C for the long term. These changes have been proposed for the benefit of Welsh language television and saving S4C. This is the goal that we all share and so I would therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, the House has listened with considerable interest to the more substantial reply that we have had tonight, compared with the one we had in Committee. None the less, a number of issues remain unclear and some quite unsatisfactory. We still have not had the bankable commitments that my colleagues and I have sought on the ongoing financial independence. We all appreciate that RPI could not continue and in Committee we invited the Government to bring forward some alternative formulae—perhaps 2 per cent of the BBC licence fee—so that there was a sort of ongoing commitment, even though at a different level from that which obtains today. If there was a need for ongoing commitment when the previous legislation was passed, by what virtue is that ongoing commitment not needed in the present circumstances? People could argue that it is needed even more now.

If I understand correctly, we heard that money will be ring-fenced up to 2015-16 but that is a commitment in name which is not in any Bill. There is no mechanism for the safeguards and no assurances on where they will be enshrined. I do not know whether the Government will bring something forward for Third Reading on that; time will tell. Neither have we had any clarity on why the Government are so anxious to secure the provisions of Amendment 34B. It is a pig in a poke. Certainly, there may be things that need to be done but no limit is being given by the Government and no self-denying ordinance as to how far they will take it. The assurances we are given are that there will be consultation. I noted with much interest that consultation is to be based on Clause 10(1)(e), which says:

“the Welsh Ministers, if the proposal relates to any matter, so far as applying in or as regards Wales, in relation to which the Welsh Ministers exercise functions”.

Perhaps we should be reassured that Welsh Ministers will therefore be exercising functions with regard to S4C. That is the only interpretation we can have from what the Minister said, but perhaps she was inadvertently misleading the House where that was concerned.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Wigley]

No, if the Minister wants to intervene to correct me, I will by all means give way. But if she does not—no—I repeat that the provisions of Clause 10(1)(e) are in regard to those matters,

“to which the Welsh Ministers exercise functions”.

At present, they do not exercise functions with regard to S4C. If the consultation is based on that, presumably they will in future. That would be an interesting development.

I am afraid that the Minister has not answered what I regard as a critical point. It is the involvement of BBC nominees and people on the executive function of S4C, taking decisions in circumstances where S4C is adjudicating between various bidders for commissions —independent producers outside on one hand, and the BBC on the other, in competition with each other. If the BBC is to be involved in that mechanism, how on earth can that possibly be fair? Independence means independence, not having people sitting at the table where those decisions are being taken.

I am not sure what position the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, will take on Amendment 40. However, if there is no greater clarification on how those mechanisms are to be assured, I hope that if he does not move it tonight, he will certainly do so at Third Reading. As for my amendment, we have not had the assurances that we need with regard to it and I beg the House to support me in the Division Lobbies.