Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Whitty and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Lord Whitty
I appreciate that, and am glad for the clarification. I was not implying that they were taking sides; they were saying that they could meet what would be required from them in 2016, provided that the cost is covered by the Minister’s department, as I believe to be the case. I really do not think that time for local authorities to prepare justifies moving the date back to 2018.
The other argument relates perhaps to the wider concern about the housing market, which we have debated during the passage of other Bills in recent days, that we might deter new landlords from coming into the market just as there is a big strain on the private rented sector to provide more accommodation. However, if you look behind that argument, the logic of that is not clear either. We want landlords to come into the private rented market who will be there for some time and who are prepared to provide accommodation that will not be deemed illegal in two years’ time. When attracting new landlords in, it must be those who are prepared to provide capacity within the private rented sector that meets the post-2018 standards. Were they prepared to come in earlier than that, they would have made sure that their property met those standards, whether it was new build, refurbished or existing premises. I can understand that there might be some concern about those two issues, but I do not think that it stands up.
I appreciate that the Minister may be in difficulty. This has been through the Commons and so forth, and clearly there are a number of interests to be placated here. However, if he cannot accept the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Best, he can at least tell us this evening that, as far as his department is concerned, “no later than” means that it will attempt to bring the regulations in as soon as is practical. In my judgment, the end date would be earlier than 2018; it would probably be approximately 2016. A slippage of a few months will not worry me if the Minister can give the assurance that his department will work on the regulations, consult everybody concerned, from the property owners to the consumers, and aim to get an early date for those regulations, whatever the terminal date, in the statute book.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I support the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Best, but speak specifically on Amendments 35C and 35E. I should apologise to the Minister for dragging him away from the Conservative Party conference. Looking around the Chamber, I think the average age in your Lordships’ House is currently significantly lower than in the debate I saw at the Conservative Party conference this afternoon. We are pleased to have the Minister here.
In some ways, this is the most controversial part of the Bill, although not in intent, because it is clear that everyone in your Lordships’ House wants to see improvements in energy efficiency in the private rented sector. The difference is the degree of urgency. I endorse the comments of other noble Lords who want to see the 2018 date brought forward.
I greatly welcome the changes that have been made, and a number of amendments in this group, particularly the Government removing the requirement for a review on which any change in energy efficiency regulations would be dependent. That is very good. That is the point that I raised in Committee. At the time it was not accepted. I have discussed it since with the Minister and I am really grateful to him for listening to the many voices that have asked for that condition to be removed.
I also greatly welcome the introduction of a minimum energy efficiency standard for private rented properties, so that properties that do not meet at least an E standard cannot be let. I entirely agree with and welcome that commitment. The impact of energy efficiency regulations could have a massive impact on health; on bringing down the energy bills of some of those hardest hit by the increases in energy prices; and, of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Deben, mentioned, on the environment. Consumer Focus estimated that just lifting band E to being the minimum could lift 150,000 households out of fuel poverty by saving each an average of £488 a year off their fuel bills. It would save 1.87 million tonnes of CO2 annually and cut the Bill to the NHS, as we have heard in previous debates, by around £145 million, which is currently spent on illnesses and conditions among those who live in poorly heated homes.
All those objectives have our full support, and I welcome the Minister’s movement on them. However, I part company with the Government on two qualifications, or loopholes, to those commitments, which undermine the Government’s stated objectives: first, to ensure that all homes that are rented out are of an acceptable energy efficiency standard; and, secondly, that this is done as soon as possible. The amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Best, seem a sensible and practical way of addressing these issues and meeting the Government's objectives. I hope that the Minister will be able to say something positive about those two amendments in particular and about all those tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Best.
Disclosure of State Pension Credit Information (Warm Home Discount) Regulations 2011
Debate between Lord Whitty and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I welcome this for the same reason as the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. This has been a long-running saga, but I hope that we will get the ability to match data in the nicest possible sense in order to ensure that the benefit goes to those for whom it is intended and to whom the provision of the warm homes discount applies.
My query arises from a wider concern about the Government’s strategy in relation to fuel poverty. There is no relationship between the warm homes discount and any improvement in the energy efficiency of the home itself. The Government have cut significantly the former direct payment through Warm Front and related schemes and are relying on a variation of the eco-mechanism to redirect money back into energy efficiency. This is distinct from the previous approach of a social tariff—which may have been flawed in many ways—in that there is no mechanism for ensuring that the bills next year, for those people who will benefit from the discount this year, will be any lower, because there has been no nudge in the direction of improving the energy efficiency of their homes.
However, the Minister encouraged me in his closing remarks when he referred to the possibility of using the data to identify those who may be targeted for advice on improving energy efficiency. As long as only a discount is provided, the problem of fuel poverty will continue, and the Government will have to continue to override the tariffs structure by providing discounts, rebates and special tariffs, with all the complexities and requirements to identify individuals that that implies. However, if the policy were linked to one of improving energy efficiency, perhaps through the same supply companies, that would be a more constructive way to go forward.
The question is: beyond the giving of advice, would it be possible to gear some of this discount—on the discretion of the recipient—to improvements through the Green Deal or other provisions fronted by the supply company, rather than providing a straight discount? If that is possible, could it be made apparent to the recipient that this is not just a cash saving this year, but a step towards reducing energy consumption and therefore towards reduced bills in future years? That would be a more coherent approach and would not require any greater disclosure of data or data matching than these regulations require.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, we have previously discussed the Warm Home Discount Regulations in Committee at some length and the regulations before us follow from that. When we discussed them before, the Minister was generous enough to acknowledge that the Labour Government were very clear when they brought in the voluntary arrangements that should they be successful, they would bring in legislation for compulsory support. Today’s regulations add to that compulsory support. What we did not envisage was that this would happen against the backdrop alluded to by my noble friend Lord Whitty: a drastic two-thirds cut in warm front grants. The Minister is very aware of our concerns and our opposition to those cuts. As welcome as these discounts are, my fear is that with the very substantial increases in bills for next year that have been announced, next winter’s bills will be so much larger that the impact of the discount, which will be extremely welcome to those who receive it, will be less than envisaged when the level was first set.
I have two questions for the Minister, and I have given him notice of them. One is to seek confirmation on a point which my noble friend Lord Whitty also made. It is about the use for which companies can contact recipients of grants. I want to be assured that when the Secretary of State discloses information to an electricity supplier it can not be used for the purposes of sale or promotion by that company. Sub-paragraphs (b) and (c) of Regulation 5(1) state that the reasons for giving the information are,
“enabling the supplier to so provide that rebate”,
which is entirely reasonable and welcome, and
“enabling the supplier to offer relevant assistance to that customer”,
which is also entirely reasonable and welcome. However, in Regulation 5(3), there is a very broad definition of relevant assistance including:
“energy efficiency measures, thermal efficiency measures and advice and assistance relating to energy and thermal efficiency … advice and assistance relating to the generation of electricity or heat produced by microgeneration or the production of heat produced by any plant which relies wholly or mainly on wood as a fuel”,
and the list continues. Energy companies can contact the recipient on such a broad base, and they may use that to try to promote sales growth. I am not sure that that is what is intended, so if the Minister could be clear that the broad definition is not a sales pitch for energy companies, it would be helpful.
On the previous regulations, we discussed the reconciliation mechanism that will be in place to make sure that the information shared is accurate. I am not clear whether there will be further regulations on that. I understood that second and third statutory instruments will be coming through. If they will not, will the Minister tell us how that will be funded? When we discussed this before, I think there was an issue about who would be responsible for funding the reconciliation mechanism. If he can give us an answer on that today, it will be very helpful. However, we broadly support the regulations with those two caveats on which we would like answers.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Whitty and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I apologise for the slight delay in getting to my feet. I need some assistance from my colleagues, as the noble Lord will know.
These amendments are very similar to those that we brought forward in Committee, but we have taken into account the comments and concerns that the Minister expressed on that occasion. The amendments before us today seek two things. The first is the provision of an annual report to Parliament by the Secretary of State on how the ECO and the Green Deal are fairing. Secondly, they establish the purpose of both these new clauses in the Bill in terms of the Government’s objectives as stated in previous legislation.
In Committee, the Minister was understandably concerned about not imposing a new duty on installers or providers to take account of the recommendations of the Committee on Climate Change. That is not unreasonable, and we took it into account before putting the amendments before your Lordships today. Therefore, these amendments have been slimmed down. They would impose no new duties on the Government other than to provide an annual report—something to which I know the Minister is sympathetic—on the goals and aims, as stated in the impact assessment on the Bill, for carbon reduction and fairness. It is a way of putting the Bill into the context of government policy.
A report by the Secretary of State to Parliament on the operation of the Green Deal would be extremely helpful. Indeed, when dealing with a point raised by noble Lords in Committee, the Minister said:
“The scheme needs to be road-tested to ensure that it works and we must keep a watchful eye on it. Getting these things precisely ordered is a very good thing for the Bill”.—[Official Report, 17/1/11; col. GC 17.]
He will know of the criticisms that were made just yesterday of the Minister in the other place, Greg Barker, when he spoke at the Ecobuild conference in London. Concerns were raised by the UK Green Building Council, and the president of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors said that there was not enough certainty or incentives for the industry, and that, although they supported the Government’s package of measures as being incredibly ambitious, they were concerned that it would not achieve the objectives. Like the Government, we want this Bill to achieve the objectives that have been set. They are ambitious, and some amendments have been tabled to help the Minister to achieve those objectives, to which we know he is committed.
Probably the most helpful parts of the amendments before us today relate to the annual report. The Secretary of State will have the opportunity to come back to Parliament, having looked at how the Green Deal is fairing. In the light of the commitments that the Minister made in Committee, there will be an opportunity for the Green Deal to be tweaked or changed and to see whether more can be done to create incentives. I beg to move.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I support the amendment. The Minister will undoubtedly have been advised by officials and the Cabinet Office that it is not normal to put purpose clauses into Bills. However, that has always been nonsense. It is particularly important that we set out clearly in Parliament the purpose of these measures.
I commend the Government on developing the plans for the Green Deal, but undoubtedly not all the details have yet been thought through. Some will be thought through before the scheme is launched, some will appear in codes, some will appear in regulations and some will have to be dealt with in subsequent practice once we see whether the market is mobilised as effectively as the Government wish. However, the purpose will not change. With any changes down the line that the Government find it necessary to make, it is particularly important that we go back to the purpose of the Bill. That purpose is, in effect, twofold: to save energy and therefore carbon dioxide and greenhouse gases, and to reduce the incidence of fuel poverty. Both those need to be addressed and set out in something like a purpose clause with a requirement to report back.
As for fuel poverty, I speak as one of the two Ministers who drew up the original guidelines. My noble friend Lady Liddell was the other Minister who signed the original Act to set up targets for fuel poverty, and it is not an easy subject, but it is important that the Government and Parliament set out the objectives. The contribution towards the elimination of fuel poverty is clearly one such objective. That will not solve the problem, as other measures also need to be taken, but it is a contribution and any subsequent change down the line needs to be seen against it, particularly in relation to the Green Deal.
On the face of it, it is not clear how the basic principles of the Green Deal apply to the fuel poor, particularly those who are in tenanted accommodation, whether with social landlords or private landlords, because the best way of delivering that dimension of the Green Deal may be in a deal with the landlord, albeit that the tenant normally pays the bill. Some complicated arrangements will have to be made. That is not yet in the Bill and I do not expect it to be, but reference back to the objectives and obligations to report annually would help us to keep the objectives of this provision clear. I hope that the Government will adopt something like these clauses in the final version of the Bill, either today or in subsequent proceedings in another place.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Whitty and Baroness Smith of Basildon(13 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I appreciate the clear willingness of the noble Baroness to answer quickly. I wish to raise a very similar point, about how this legislation fits in with the existing climate change legislation in Scotland. The Scottish Parliament has preceded us on some provisions. Can the noble Baroness give us some information on discussions with Scottish Ministers, and tell us what their response has been? Many of the issues that we have raised in relation to the Green Deal and other issues would apply to these provisions as well. Obviously we would not want to have the same discussions again; but if the noble Baroness can give some outline of the discussions she has had with Scottish Ministers, it would be very helpful.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I was not expecting to be provoked to speak on this amendment or this clause, but I speak in my capacity as former chair of Consumer Focus. It was always a little uncertain where the boundaries between reserved legislation and responsibilities applied in this area. Fuel poverty is a devolved matter, as are most aspects of energy efficiency; but, of course, Ofgem regulation is a reserved matter. I feel that quite a number of the clauses that we are about to consider stray across both areas. I am not necessarily saying that we should hold up proceedings and delay consideration today but, before this Committee finalises its activities, it would be helpful for us—and, I think, for my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament—to have a clearer delineation of which jurisdiction applies to each area of intervention. It has caused some confusion in the past under the previous Government, and we are compounding it here if we leave these clauses precisely as they are at the end of our deliberations.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 28B. It is welcome that the Green Deal is available to owner-occupiers. We also welcome the review for private tenants. Our dispute on this issue is that ongoing work to improve the condition and energy efficiency of privately rented homes should not be dependent on the review. In Committee on Monday, we spoke of why it was important to urgently address fuel poverty and energy inefficiency in those homes. My amendments may partly clarify some confusion.
It seemed that on Monday some noble Lords were of the view that social housing was already included, and there was reference to the role of council houses in our discussions. However, 4 per cent of social rented properties suffer from excess cold. Tenants often have little control over their heating bills and have had no insulation or energy-efficient measures. They are often people on low incomes and they risk poor health by underheating their homes, because the cost of adequately heating them is too high. We may be talking about a relatively small number of people, but they are some of the most vulnerable in the country.
There are two reasons why these amendments are important. First, there is the social impact of energy efficiency, which impacts equally on social housing and private rented housing. If we really want to have an impact on our carbon targets—and we will later consider local carbon targets—we need to address the impact of energy-efficiency measures in the social rented sector. That is why we have tabled these amendments. I would be grateful if the Minister could address some areas of concern. Does he have any assessment or rating of the current condition of the social rented sector? If it is to be excluded, I should imagine that there is a reason.
The previous Government introduced the Decent Homes Standard scheme and there was improvement in areas such as replacement boilers but we are aware that there is a lot of work to be done, so we have put forward these two amendments. Amendment 28A would ensure that the socially rented housing sector in England and Wales should also be included under these measures.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, in some social housing there is a district heating scheme. I am strongly in favour of decentralised energy but one of the reasons why it has got a bad name in some areas is because of the lack of consumer protection. With district heating it is often difficult for the tenant or, whatever the form of tenure, for the individual flat to control the use of energy. It is therefore important that consumer protection dimensions apply to those kinds of social housing.
There are examples where the schemes have led to a substantial increase in the fuel costs over which the tenants and leaseholders have no control. Among the tenants in particular, and in some cases among the leaseholders because they will be pensioners who bought under the right to buy scheme and have not got a great income, there will effectively be fuel poverty by the normal definition as a result of something over which they have no control—in other words, the level of use of energy within their own premises.
That is an additional dimension to why we need to be clear on social housing and how far social housing is covered by the provisions of this Bill.