Competition Appeal Tribunal (Coronavirus) (Recording and Broadcasting) Order 2020

Lord Wei Excerpts

Wednesday 15th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wei (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. It is hard to argue against this measure. It makes sense to widen access to the courts in this way, particularly at a time when we have a huge backlog of cases across the board.

However, there are a number of issues that we need to think about. The problem with a crisis such as the one we are in is that the measures we adopt in an emergency become longer-term without the usual process of thinking through how we use video and such measures in our courts generally, as well as in these kinds of cases specifically. I raised in a previous debate issues relating to terrorism and video. I would like to hear from my noble friend the Minister how the use of data from feeds will be governed and what ethical frameworks are in place both in this context as well as more generally in an age where one could take the data from courts and train AI based on the outcomes of those cases to spot who is guilty and who is not just from facial movements, which might ultimately deny fair trials and access to natural justice if a future Government decided to use that data. It is important that we know what we are getting ourselves into as we widen the use of this technology in these environments.

I have heard reports about people who are vulnerable who are caught up in cases, particularly in more serious criminal cases, where violence or intimidation is involved. They may struggle to use video in order to operate well in court. Often, facial expressions from their lawyers can provide reassurance. A lot of the things that are not possible in a Zoom format meeting—as we all know—are crucial to enabling somebody to handle emotionally the unfamiliar environment of a court. Whistleblowers and others may be vulnerable in such cases. They may find themselves very alone and very nervous as they give their testimony. I would like to hear from the Minister what safeguards are in place to counterbalance the lack of that reassurance and emotional, social contact in such situations. Will cases where there is a risk of this be given priority over those which are more straightforward and where the performance of somebody testifying over video with a lack of support around them is less important?

It is wise to move forward with this measure, but it would be unwise to leave unanswered these questions and others that have been raised in this debate just because we are in the middle of an emergency.

Crown Court (Recording and Broadcasting) Order 2020

Lord Wei Excerpts

Monday 8th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wei (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interests as in the Lords register and thank my noble and learned friend Lord Keen for his eloquent introduction.

I welcome this move towards recording sentencing, whether online or for broadcast, especially in these times. It is wise, whether by accident or design, that this is being trialled quite extensively. It is true that we, as a people and as a nation, need to understand the law better, and the reasons decisions are made need to be explained more transparently. Although I have not worked in the judiciary, I had the experience of sitting on a jury in the Old Bailey just a few years ago, and I came away from it incredibly enlightened about and respectful of our system, which is one of the best, if not the best, in the world. I also came away with a much clearer understanding of the challenges faced by the police in particular. Apart from in court, they do not often get to explain their side of the story as regards the work they have to do to collect evidence and the hurdles that are sometimes there when it comes to prosecuting, based on lack of evidence or of the right kind of evidence; in that case it related to digital evidence.

Many citizens are expressing a sense of powerlessness, even in the last few days. That will only increase, and people may take matters into their own hands more often if they do not understand our system and cannot understand and see that justice has been done. A measure such as this one can help people to understand that there are processes for enabling the law to be put into action. By the way, delays in cases do not help. If you have to wait two years to see justice done, there may often be the temptation to take matters into your own hands.

I see this as all part of bringing into the internet age the legal system but also bringing about a better understanding of our ancient common law, which I admire greatly. It has been a great sadness to me to see in recent decades our system of common law, not just in the legal environment but in other, extra-legal areas, supplanted by what we might call a caricature of Roman law, whereby decisions are not always subject to jury, innocence is not always assumed before guilt and so on. Much of the technology world that I come from works on the principles of Roman law rather than common law. When the algorithm tells you that you cannot have a mortgage or cannot have a job, it does not always give you the reasons behind that decision and you are certainly always presumed guilty before innocent. If the computer says no, then it is generally a no. Educating people, including our tech entrepreneurs, about common law and natural justice is therefore important. I hope that this can be a way to ensure that our culture, our quangos and our code are defined in a way that is not Roman but based more on common law.

Like other speakers, I urge the Government to move faster and not just to use technology introduced in the past 20 or 30 years but to start to look ahead. I take note, for example, of the use of virtual reality. In Manchester, there is a collaboration between the University of Salford and the Manchester civil court to familiarise families and children with how the court process works using virtual reality so that it is not so scary for them when they enter court. I wonder whether this can be done by those who view sentencing, so that they can understand that a judge’s final decision is part of a long process that we should all be more familiar with than we are now.

I have a number of questions to ask and caveats to add. I worry about the risk of grandstanding by judges, especially in high-profile cases, and ask what guidance will be given to avoid that. If certain cases are not to be televised, how transparent will the decision be as to why a case was chosen to be televised or not? I am keen to understand whether we can learn in this House and the other House from the changes in the law that are required. Will judges be allowed to say, as they sometimes do, “The law needs to change in this area because it has tied my hands”? The link that used to be there when judges sat in the Lords previously needs to be re-established. Can it be created again through this process?

Finally, what measures are being taken to provide extra security to judges in case protesters leap into their place and incapacitate them to prevent them shutting down a broadcast? There may be a need to review this.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

I now call the next speaker on the list, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb.