Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Warner and Lord Beecham

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I shall speak in a friendly way towards the Minister on his amendments to the amendment that the House was good enough to pass at Third Reading. I cannot guarantee to be quite as friendly towards the Minister on all matters relating to the NHS and social care in future. I suspect that we shall have a good canter around that course on Thursday.

What it shows is that this House has an important scrutiny function to perform. I know that we gave the Minister a pretty hard time on this issue, but the Government rather deserved it. I think that it was very foolish for the Government to bring the Bill to this House with the devolution of NHS functions in it without clarity about how that would work in relation to existing NHS legislation, particularly the 2006 and 2012 Acts. I am glad that the Government have seen the error of their ways and I am extremely grateful to the Minister and his colleague, Alistair Burt, for the considerate way in which they discussed with me this set of amendments.

I am happy to commend them to the House because they meet the concerns that were expressed at an earlier stage, and I accept the points made by the Minister about the need, very occasionally, to revoke some of these changes. I do not accept the advice from the BMA in its guidance that there should be more safeguards. Given the nature of NHS legislation in this country, it is inevitable that where the Secretary of State sees real damage being done in a local area, he has to step in and make some changes. It is almost inevitable that on the odd occasion that will be necessary, so I am quite happy to support the change proposed by the Minister.

This shows the House in a good state in its ability to exercise its scrutiny functions—and, at the time of the Strathclyde report, it does us well to pat ourselves a little bit on the back that we have actually helped the Government improve their legislation.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, Warner Brothers established a remarkable reputation in the field of entertainment. It would be churlish if the noble Lord, who perhaps no longer counts himself as a brother to some of us on these Benches, was not to be congratulated on effecting a substantive change to the Bill that improves it. Members on all sides will want to join the Minister in paying tribute to the noble Lord’s efforts.

As to the rather peculiar route taken by the Government in this matter, I think it became apparent to those of us who attended the meeting chaired by the noble Baroness at which the noble Lord, Lord Prior, was present, together with the silent presence of the Minister for devolution and the northern powerhouse, that at that point there really had been virtually no contact between the relevant departments, notably DCLG and the Department of Health. Clearly matters have improved since then and the House will be grateful to the two Ministers, who I suspect have got together much more effectively than had been possible at that stage. So far as the Opposition are concerned, we welcome the changes that have been made.

But questions still remain, some of which I referred to in my earlier speech in relation to the first group, about the position particularly in what are now county areas, where it is conceivable that certain districts may affiliate to combined authorities in an adjacent area. If, for example, there was a situation where there was a district council in Cheshire rather than a unitary, which joined the combined authority—it may or may not; I have no idea what is happening in the north-west, and no doubt my noble friend Lord Smith will enlighten us—and it affiliated for economic purposes with the combined authority and health was then taken over by that combined authority, what would happen to the social care part of the overall concept of health and social care? I do not think that that question has been resolved. It certainly has not been resolved in my mind, but that may be a defect on my part. It would be good to have some enlightenment about that situation.

Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Warner and Lord Beecham

Monday 29th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I have a lot of sympathy with the case that my noble friend has put in establishing the structure that would permit appeals. However, there is one potential problem. I endorse what he says about the undesirability of requiring people ultimately to have recourse to judicial review, which is a lengthy and very expensive process. However, it is likely that people wishing to make an appeal to such a tribunal would need at least legal advice and, possibly, legal aid. I would imagine, as matters stand, that such a procedure would be out of scope of the legal aid system as it has been “reformed”—I put that word between inverted commas. Perhaps the Minister and my noble friend could indicate whether they think that it would be a sensible addition to the terms of the amendment, which would command a good deal of support across your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I briefly intervene from the perspective of a member of the Joint Select Committee, which proposed that there should be some kind of body. Much of our thinking was focused on the early days of these new arrangements. We thought it highly unlikely that there would not be a lot of disputes in the first few years of what would be a pretty major change to the arrangements. There are two sources of potential dispute—those by people who do not like the results of an assessment made about them, in some form or another, and some of the stuff that comes out of making markets. There is the issue of the rate for the job between local authorities and providers. We could see some of those areas also leading to disputes.

We had it in mind that some mechanism should at least be ready to go into action should this happen. It may be that, in the longer term, things will settle down and there will not be a great problem. However, even if the Minister is not prepared to accept my noble friend’s amendment and make statutory provision, the world would be reassured if the Government at least had a plan B so that we do not end up with judicial review if things do not go well. Rather, we end up with some kind of arbitration system which is low cost, speedy and can deal with some of the inevitable teething problems of a fairly major change to these systems.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Lord Beecham

Thursday 5th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Warner]

It might just help the Committee to say that there are plenty of suggestions around, which the Government are well aware of, that enable you to implement the Dilnot proposals without any increase in public expenditure. What you are required to do, though, is reprioritise, which the Government are unwilling to do, as far as I can see. Starters for 10 would be not just the creative proposal of my noble friend but means-testing generous winter fuel payments, free TV licences and bus passes for people who are higher rate taxpayers. Plenty of proposals have been put forward for using inheritance tax to pay for that. All these proposals could be put into play if the Government were prepared to enter objectively into a discussion with the Labour Front Bench in the other place, with whom they are having so-called cross-party talks, but very little creativity seems to be coming from the government side.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I am not empowered to commit the Labour Party to a particular policy stance on this, although I find some of the arguments and options advanced by my noble friends quite interesting. What I do know is that the Conservative Front Bench walked away from joint-party discussions two and a half years ago, have done nothing so far about Dilnot and, by all the auguries that we are hearing, do not propose to do very much about it. We will see in due course, if and when we get some proposals that may come before the Recess.

In what has been a long—perhaps inordinately long—municipal career, my most rewarding period was when I served as chairman of the social services committee of my council for four years in the 1970s. We managed to transform the provision of social services, at that time including children’s social services, since hived off—in my view, perhaps rather unfortunately —in a way that would now be impossible, given the financial situation. This is therefore a matter that is very close to my heart and, of course, to the hearts of many others.

It is disturbing that, as we have heard from my noble friend Lord Warner and the noble Lord, Lord Best, the financial situation is deteriorating really quite rapidly in the face of substantially rising demand, produced in part by demographic change, and in part by the advance of medicine and care. Younger people with physical and learning disabilities are living longer and elderly people are living longer, and we must be glad of that but, as we have heard, it imposes considerable pressures on services and budgets. We have heard some of the data on that this afternoon.

It is often assumed that we are talking largely about the older population. That is not the case because younger people with learning disabilities are growing fastest in terms of numbers and in terms of the costs that have to be met to care for them. The Local Government Association’s projections are that the percentage of expenditure on younger people will rise substantially—indeed, more than for the elderly. The cost of care for that particular group is expected to rise by 42% by the end of this decade. As the noble Lord, Lord Best, has pointed out, that ultimately could lead to virtually the entirety of local authority budgets being devoted to adult social care of all kinds. In any event, the LGA estimates that if current demand, which is likely to develop, were to be met in full, funding for all other services would drop in cash terms, assuming a level playing field, by 66% or 80% over that period, so we are talking about a very large potential gap. The consequences of some of the savings that have been referred to by my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Best, are rather worrying. The financial pressures on providers of residential care are causing considerable difficulties.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Lord Beecham

Monday 19th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I want to say a few words about children in this group of amendments. I know and agree with the arguments put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. We do not want this to become a huge talking shop. I sympathise with and support that idea, but I think that children are different in kind, in part for the reasons given by the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin. If we are serious about investing in the future, we need to pick up some of the issues around children much earlier. Diabetes and obesity are big issues facing our society. Many of our services are not very good at picking up the needs of children and responding to them in a comprehensive manner. There are lots of organisations that speak on behalf of them, just as there are lots of organisations that speak up for other interest groups, but I would say that the investment issue on children is much more significant than the investment issue on 80 to 85 year- olds, or even 70 year-olds. That is not to say that those people do not need a good or compassionate set of services responding to their needs, but if we as a society neglect the voice and needs of children, we are just bringing a lot of problems upon ourselves as a society—more so than if we have less good care at much older age groups.

From my time as a Minister, I thought that the voice of the child in the NHS was really quite muted. The working across boundaries in the needs of children is often far less good than it should be. We need to put in the Bill a stronger requirement to listen to the voice of children and to have their representatives fully focused in the health and well-being boards. They are different in kind and their voice has not been heard enough. Too often, public services operate through parents rather than going straight to the child. That is particularly an issue with young carers and with adolescents. We need a bit of a wake-up call on the needs of children in our NHS and social services and across the spectrum of their needs. I hope that the Minister will look carefully at this issue in the particular circumstances of children.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, these few clauses relating to health and well-being boards are perhaps less politically exciting than many of those that we have spent days debating—days that are rapidly drawing to a close—but they are potentially highly significant and their importance will be realised over time. The purpose of these boards is to facilitate integration between local government and the National Health Service in the planning and provision of all services relevant to the health and well-being of the present and the future population. They should take a strategic view of a range of services—health in its conventional sense; public health, which is now effectively to be restored to local government; social care; children’s services; housing; environmental services; leisure; and the criminal justice system, all of which have been mentioned by various of your Lordships this morning.

In addition to that fundamental strategic role, these clauses provide for greater democratic accountability at local level and the engagement of the community and the voluntary sector. As we have heard, they also ought to provide for the engagement of staff with a range of professional skills to be brought to bear on the issues that communities face.

I listened with some care and, frankly, growing concern to the observations of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. If I may say so, she got it wrong about the purpose of the health and well-being boards. They are not operational boards. They are to produce a health and well-being strategy. They operate at that level. They will not be directly involved with implementing that strategy. They will not be responsible for the range of services which will be required both to work together and to work efficiently to impact on the health and well-being of an area.

The noble Baroness also perhaps misunderstands how influential bodies like local government can be. When I had responsibility in the area of social care in Newcastle, many years ago, I was able, with a committee of 15, to drive through a significant programme of change in our authority. We created one of the first welfare rights services, we trebled meals on wheels, we doubled the home help service and we made vast changes in the way that we provided for children’s services and adult services alike. It is perfectly possible to do that with a reasonably sized committee, provided that there are people on it with the kind of vision which is necessary, and people in the employ of whatever authority is providing those services who, equally, have drive, sensitivity and vision.

In looking at the role of the health and well-being boards, then, we have to have regard to that area of responsibility. Of course they will be working to an agenda which will actually be set rather separately, in a sense, because it is the local authority and the clinical commissioning groups which will be responsible for the preparation of the joint strategic needs assessment. That is the basis upon which matters will have to be carried forward.

I am afraid that the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, joins the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, in possibly having slightly misunderstood the nature of one of the problems that she touched upon. She is absolutely right that housing has to be an integral part of the programme to deal with health, both for communities and individuals, but her amendment is the wrong way around. It is not that the health and well-being board has to take into account the views of the planning authority. It is the other way around—the planning authorities and housing authorities should be drawing up their plans on the basis of the strategic needs assessment and the health and well-being strategy that follows it. We are not at odds about that, really; it is perhaps simply the wording of the amendment. I will have to make a confession about the wording of my amendments later, so I might also plead guilty to the charge that I have levied at noble Baronesses opposite.

Before coming on to the amendments as such, there are two or three questions upon which I would like to hear the Minister’s views. The first is in relation to the relationship between the national Commissioning Board, and its local outposts in particular, and the health and well-being boards. The Bill refers to the position of the national Commissioning Board, but I am interested to learn how he sees the role of the local outposts—I think that is the phrase—which will be established, because part of the agenda which will remain with the national Commissioning Board will impinge pretty directly upon the local strategy and will have very significant and very specific local implications.

Going beyond that, perhaps the Minister would comment upon whether the Government intend to replicate at national level the kind of joint working across departments that they are, perfectly properly, looking to create at local level. Will we see some ministerial committee or some forum for relevant government departments? I go beyond even those that have so far been mentioned. I am thinking in particular of the Department for Work and Pensions and the impact of the Welfare Reform Bill, as well as its general responsibility for benefits; and, bearing in mind the observations of many noble Lords about having regard for the needs of children and young people, but also adults and people with learning disabilities and so on, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills clearly has a role. It would be interesting to learn whether the Government’s thinking has taken them beyond the local level to looking at how these matters might be addressed nationally.

In addition to that, there is the question of community budgeting, as the phrase now is: whether it is envisaged that it has a role in this context and whether some of the pilots being considered nationally could address those issues.

I will now speak to the amendments in my name and those of my colleagues, Amendments 330ZB, 330ZAB, 331A, 331AAA, 335A, 336A and 336AA. Amendment 330ZB requires the publication of an integrated commissioning plan to which all partners must have regard. That might go somewhat beyond the terms of the Bill as it stands at present, but it seems essential that there should be an integrated commissioning plan across the piece. We are, after all, talking about very considerable sums of public money being spent. Since most of the health budget as such is being devolved to clinical commissioning groups, we are talking about £80 billion nationally. That would be translated into smaller but nevertheless significant sums of money locally, to which would be added the local authority’s own contributions in any given area across its own responsibilities. For a large authority, we are probably talking of a budget of close to £1 billion —possibly more—which will be encompassed within, though not directly administered by, the health and well-being board.

Amendment 335A calls on the health and well-being board to have the responsibility of signing off the clinical commissioning group’s commissioning plan. This is to ensure consistency and a degree of accountability for the work undertaken by the clinical commissioning groups. That is backed up by another amendment which gives the health and well-being board the right to request information as to the progress in implementing the strategy, so that, in addition to the scrutiny committee of the local authority—it in any event has a wide range of possibilities to scrutinise what is happening—the board itself, having set the strategy, is able to see how it is being implemented.

We now come to the question of membership. This is certainly a somewhat difficult issue. There are a whole range of amendments, most of which I would agree with, setting out the wide range of organisations which should be included in membership of the board. They include representatives of education providers; pharmacies; the probation and police services, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham; allied health professionals, about whom the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, spoke; and people from the field of alcohol and drug abuse and the field of safeguarding. It is a significant number.

The Bill at present constitutes the health and well-being board as a committee of the local authority, yet somewhat paradoxically, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, pointed out, only requires a single member of a local authority to be appointed to a board. Admittedly, this is as a minimum, but it could hardly be less. Interestingly, my own authority in Newcastle recently agreed a shadow board, in my absence, which is 25 strong. That strikes me as slightly on the high side, but it includes two representatives from each of the two clinical commissioning groups in the city, from the three trusts that serve the city and from a range of other organisations —many of which reflect the bodies to which noble Lords have referred this morning in debate or in amendments—as well as just three councillors.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Lord Beecham

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner]

I was the Minister responsible for the MHRA and very much share the noble Baroness’s views on this. There are some slight differences, one of which is that a lot of the funding for the MHRA, in effect, comes from the pharmaceutical industry, in terms of licence fees. However, I was well aware of the MHRA experience, and my own experience of it, in trying to craft Amendment 257ZA, which does bear some resemblance to that. I certainly would not argue with the idea that the number of non-executives under my amendment should be larger than three—it does say “at least three”. I will certainly go along with her that some outside expertise, in quite substantial numbers among the non-executives, is an extremely good model.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I am tempted to open by invoking, if not the Health Protection Agency, then perhaps the protection of the local environmental health department, because conditions in this Chamber, at this temperature, are hardly conducive to anyone’s good health. However, that is a matter perhaps for the House authorities to look at.

I rise to express the view that Clause 53 should not stand part of this Bill and to support my noble friend Lord Warner’s Amendment 260. I do the latter on the basis that that would be a fallback position, because I entirely concur with the view expressed in particular by the noble Lords, Lord Turnberg, Lord Patel and Lord Walton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, who have of course such a distinguished history as leading clinicians in these and other medical fields. Part of the thrust of the argument is the need to maintain not only a functioning organisation which has, as we have heard, an international reputation, but also to ensure that any such organisation has the requisite degree of independence from Government—that is, the right and in fact the duty, as the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, made clear, to advise the Secretary of State and the Government generally without fear or favour.

Amendment 260 would create an executive agency for the Health Protection Agency. It is arguable that executive agency status would not of itself lead to the required or desired degree of independence whereas perhaps a special health authority would conceivably achieve that. There is a difference of view from the Government about the status of a special health authority. Their preference for Public Health England is that it should be an executive agency. They argue that a special health authority would not be appropriate. They point to analogous situations of agencies created for the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency and curiously, by way of analogy, the Met Office, as organisations which are deemed to have sufficient independent status, albeit operating as executive agencies of their respective departments.

Neither of those arguments can be sustained. The role of Public Health England is a much wider one than either of the two bodies to which their document published earlier this year refers. A regulatory agency is not the same as an organisation which has to advocate and oversee a wide range of services, such as Public Health England would be required to do, and the Met Office is hardly an organisation which is required to be independent of Government in preparing its weather forecast. The analogy is somewhat ludicrous.

There is also, of course, the very important point made by noble Lords about the need for independent status in order to attract some of the funding, both charitable and contractual, on which in particular the Health Protection Agency is critically dependent and which might be endangered by its absorption into Public Health England in a way which would make it clear that it is no longer independent. That is not to say that the creation of Public Health England in the form of a special health authority would not of itself be desirable. The bringing together of a range of functions under the auspices of Public Health England, although not, I would argue, the Health Protection Agency, would be welcome.

A number of professional bodies have commended the principle but clearly have reservations about how the new structure would work. The Association of Directors of Public Health, for example, makes it clear that Public Health England should include health protection and emergency planning, health improvement and health services in its main areas of work and, in addition, provide an independent science base and advice to the Government and the devolved Governments. One of the arguments against creating a special health authority was that it would not be able to deal with devolved Governments. I would have thought that that is something that the Government could deal with relatively easily.

The role of Public Health England should also support the national Commissioning Board and provide support for local directors of public health. However, the association expressed concerns about the role and status of directors of public health. We recently discussed some of those in Committee. It also had concerns about the input into the national Commissioning Board and the lines of accountability. We will have Public Health England, the clinical commissioning groups, the directors of public health and various other functioning arms of the National Health Service, and it is not clear how the relationship would work and, in particular, what the role of Public Health England would be. The association has argued strongly for consolidating public health capacity into Public Health England with overall responsibility for improvement, protection and promotion of health care, and for public health intelligence and analysis.