Health and Social Care (Safety and Quality) Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Friday 13th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner (Lab)]

My Lords, I support all four amendments in this group, but I added my name to those of my noble friend Lord Turnberg. I speak from the perspective of someone who nearly 12 years ago as a Minister approved a new system to improve patient safety by reporting serious incidents. We did not try at that point to go for unrealistic approaches to improving safety in the NHS. That was not because we were spineless; it was because we needed to get people behind the agenda and bring out into the open serious instances of the poor practice that was going on and jeopardising the safety of patients. I do not think that Clause 1 meets that test. It is likely either to produce excessive caution or simply to drive some of the poor practice underground.

I support every word that my noble friend said and very much of what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said, so I will not repeat them, but I want to draw attention to the briefing that we have all had from three significant organisations: NHS Providers, the Health Foundation and the BMA. I do not always stand up and advocate the policies of the BMA in a number of areas, but in this area it is absolutely right.

I draw attention to what those organisations say in some of that briefing—I shall not read it all out. The Health Foundation makes it clear that introducing a duty such as that in Clause 1 would go against the evidence of what is possible in delivering safe health and care services. It states that the NHS has already demonstrated considerable progress towards building a genuine safety culture and that it is concerned that the message sent to NHS staff through the wording of the Bill may hinder further progress on this. It draws out in a summary of its concerns three very simple points, which might be a consequence of passing the Bill as it stands. First, patient safety experts tell it that causing no avoidable harm is impossible; secondly, legislation is not a solution for cultural problems; and, thirdly, a duty of no avoidable harm will divert further resources from what we know improves safety. My noble friend Lord Turnberg alluded to shifting priorities of what organisations and staff do in a way that is not always helpful to patients.

NHS Providers said very similar things but added something important. It said that should the Bill pass into law, further regulations may be laid by a new Government who have not engaged or given assurances in this area. It urges amendment to ensure that any regulations are fully consulted on and passed by affirmative resolution.

This is an extraordinary point in the electoral cycle to bring forward a provision of this seriousness in the form of Clause 1. The Government have to think again; they should consider whether they really want to be involved with a Bill containing a provision of this kind. It is full of possibilities for unintended consequences; potentially it could do harm to patients. I do not doubt the good intentions of the people behind the Bill and I do not doubt that they will be pretty grumpy about some of us drawing attention to our concerns. This has become the Government’s Bill—let us not mince our words. It may have started off and still nominally be a Private Member’s Bill, but the Government have put a lot of effort into it, as the sheer number of civil servants standing by to help shows. This is, to all intents and purposes, a government Bill. If the Government really want this legislation in this Parliament, they have to consider doing much more than they are currently providing for to meet the concerns expressed not just by Members of this House but by people whose opinions we all respect. With all due respect to my noble friend Lord Turnberg, the easiest way to meet many of those concerns would be to accept the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. The Department of Health needs to consider whether this would be the wisest thing to do.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

I agree that there should be a culture of openness, honesty and transparency. When things go wrong, most people say, “I don’t want this to happen to anyone else”. There should be lessons learnt from mistakes, not cover-ups. This should be made as clear as possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Masham of Ilton]

My Lords, I would like to ask a question of the noble Lord, Lord Warner. Would Amendment 8 help to protect children such as Baby P, who suffered around 50 abuses, including a broken back, which had been neglected? Many other children have suffered abuse and neglect since then. Children need extra shared protection.

[Lord Warner]

I know of the commitment of the noble Baroness in this area. The answer is that a linked identifier would have helped in many of these cases. We have to move beyond exhortation in central government guidance for people to share information across the agencies to providing them with the practical tools that will make it easier for these data systems actually to share information and make it readily accessible. That means providing a common linked identifier for the agencies to use in matching their data sets. So, yes, in all probability Baby P might have been protected, as well as the many others we have seen since Victoria Climbié.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Thursday 8th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Masham of Ilton]

My Lords, I also have my name to the two amendments in this group. Children need protection and the support that my noble friend Lady Finlay has just talked about. So much more should be done for children, but the big problem is that they fall under so many different departments which are far too isolated. I am thinking now of the young people who are at risk from drugs and alcohol. I went to a presentation last week where there were photographs up of young children who had died from a combination of drugs and alcohol. So much should be done.

I hope that the Minister will answer my question from the previous debate about children and the risks that they face, taking Baby P as an example. Again, many departments came in and he fell through the net: health, the police, child protection and local authorities. They should be working together for children. We really need to protect them.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I speak from a background of having been a director of social services and being involved in reforming youth justice. Collectively, the adult world is very bad at representing the needs of children to service providers. It would be a modest but important change in this legislation if we brought out that the term “people” does include adults and children. A lot of people in the adult world simply assume that “people” means “adults” and does not mean “children”. We see in the NHS, for example, particularly for the teenage years, that services are often provided in a way which is almost bound to deter engagement and involvement by young people in receiving those services and in dealing with some of the problems that they have.

We need to change the culture. We must ensure that in the new healthwatch system—whether it is the one that some of us would have liked or the one that there will actually be—people are sensitive to the needs of children, particularly at the local healthwatch level, and that those needs are not overlooked. It is not just a matter of making children feel better and that they are being listened to. It is actually about how we can get the services shaped to head off at a much earlier stage some of the trouble that is looming for many of these children, in terms of obesity, drugs, sexual health and unwanted pregnancy. I hope that the Government will listen sympathetically to this and move the kind of amendment that my noble friend Lady Massey has moved so ably.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Masham of Ilton]

My Lords, in supporting these amendments, I want just to say that many demands are made on local authorities. If the Bill becomes law, they will have added responsibilities for public health. The control of infectious diseases is vital. We have increasing levels of drug resistance in conditions such as tuberculosis and sexually transmitted infections. We have the problems of alcohol and drug abuse. Food poisoning is always a risk. One never knows what new infection is around the corner—one has only to look at the recent very worrying virus in lambs. We need senior officers of public health because they are the important link between health and local authorities. They need to be in senior positions and to have a clear voice.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 125, and I had intended to add my name to Amendment 123, but somehow that did not work out. I speak in support of the excellent presentation by the noble Lord, Lord Patel. I am still concerned about whether we will end up in a situation where, in pay and in terms and conditions of service, public health staff at senior levels start to lag behind their counterparts in the NHS. It is a real risk and I am not completely convinced that the way the Government have gone about this is adequate to tackle it.

I also share the view expressed very well by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, that the Secretary of State should give his consent to the dismissal of any director of public health. These posts are exposed when the temperature rises in a particular area over a serious incident, so these directors deserve a bit more in the way of safeguards than are provided in the Government’s proposals.

I accept that the Government have moved on this, but I am a little concerned about how government Amendment 128 has been framed. I always get a bit wobbly when I see “may” used in guidance, and I wonder whether that could not be strengthened a little. I accept that Amendment 124 goes a long way towards giving an assurance that local authorities will be required to pay attention to the guidance but, as I read it, there is no guarantee that it will necessarily cover all the areas in the kind of detail that noble Lords have expressed their concerns about in this debate. A bit of strengthening of Amendment 128 would not go amiss unless the Minister can assure us that “may” really does mean that all these topics will be covered in the guidance.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 99 and to a number of other amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and my noble friend Lord Harris. I do not want to speak for very long on this issue. I have some inhibition about speaking about this because I do not think that my own party’s record on patient representation was extremely startling. I had to take some of those measures through your Lordships’ House and usually did not get the better of the arguments with the noble Earl on these issues. I accept that the Government have started off pretty well on this issue and that they have a good brand—HealthWatch is quite a good brand. I am an athletics fan, however, and the Government are beginning to look like a 200-metre runner who has moved up to 400 metres but is now starting to run out of steam on this issue in the last 100 metres. What I think has happened is that the money has started to dominate the discussion.

I also recognise here a favourite Department of Health word—hosting. There are two phrases that used to worry me as a Health Minister: “the NHS family”, which was usually an excuse for doing something foolish; and “hosting”. The danger of hosting is that, for what seemed to be perfectly good reasons, you put one organisation in the maw of another organisation whose culture is fundamentally different from the needs of the organisation being hosted. The real danger here is that there is no obvious similarity between a regulator and a patient representative organisation.

I will give the noble Earl just one example where the Government would do well to pause and think. If you are the parent of someone with a learning disability who is in a home which has mistreated and abused them and the regulator has let you down, or you perceive that the regulator has let you down, you are not going to be very pleased to find that the regulator is the very same body that is hosting the national body representing patients. That is a real example, not a phoney example. I think that there could be many such cases—and we will have a debate on Dilnot and social care on Thursday. However, there are some serious problems in the funding and quality of some of our social care institutions. The regulator is going to have a tough time in these areas over the coming years. It is a mistake for HealthWatch England to be hosted, in effect, by the regulator. Given the size of the NHS budget, the Government are spoiling their ship for a ha’porth of tar, to use a corny phrase, by not finding the money to fund this body adequately, so that it can stand on its own two feet and be secure and independent, and so that it can be allowed to be seen to be secure and independent by the patients who will put their trust in it.

I shall end on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, about ring-fencing. I can give the noble Earl a good example of where the Government have tried to do the right thing. They tried to put some extra money into social care that would go down to local authorities to improve the volume and quality of social care, but they did not ring-fence it. It was the best part of £1 billion, out of the £2 billion increase in social care funding. We now have a lot of people who thought that that was a jolly good idea. However, as it was not ring-fenced, the Government will not get any credit for it. It has gone into local budgets, but we do not know where. If you talk to any director of adult social services they will tell you that one of the problems was that the money was not ring-fenced, so they cannot reassure the Government that the money has gone to the purposes for which the Government sent it down the conduit to the local authorities. There is a very real danger that the same will happen with the HealthWatch money that will go down to the local level. I strongly support these amendments.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton]

My Lords, I spoke on this subject at Second Reading, and I want to go back in history for a few minutes. I remember that when the community health councils were closed down, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and I felt strongly that the health forums which were put in their place should be independent. If a local healthwatch organisation is linked too closely to its local authority, it will be difficult for it to be able to speak out if it finds that both health and social care facilities are not up to scratch. What happens if they disagree with the CQC? Patients often need help, so an independent body would be much better to help them with their problems. It is vital that HealthWatch is adequately funded to do a useful job, otherwise it will fail. Perhaps I may give an example concerning a rural area. What happens if there are not adequate funds for the payment of members’ travel expenses? That has been found with the local LINks. I hope that the Minister will give this serious consideration.