Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Cumberlege

Monday 19th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, Amendment 56 is simpler than the amendment I tabled on Report but it is necessary because I need some undertakings. I know that other noble Lords also seek those. The amendment concerns Public Health England. Both amendments found favour across the House in the previous debate, as I hope Amendment 14 will in this one. I thank noble Lords who have put their names to the amendment. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg also wished to put his name to it, but there was no room on the Marshalled List.

As I said, the amendment concerns Public Health England, the new body that is destined to take on the duties of the Health Protection Agency, the cancer registries, the National Treatment Agency, the Public Health Observatories and some of the functions of the regional directors of public health and their teams. The staff of Public Health England will number around 4,500 people, so it is an important and considerable agency. The original proposal was that the organisation should be governed by a civil servant acting as the chief executive, without a board to whom he or she would be accountable. It was a model that many of us found very strange and thought unworkable.

At the meeting we had with him and later in correspondence, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State made it clear that he values an unobstructed line of accountability between the individual charged with the day-to-day running of Public Health England and him. However, he agreed in his letter, which I received on 15 March, that Public Health England,

“needs an appropriate level of operational independence for it to be most effective”,

and that,

“it will be essential for it and the Government as a whole to work together seamlessly and to share a common agenda”.

He went on to say:

“I do accept that, if PHE is to achieve our ambitions for it, the chief executive and the Secretary of State should be seen to be subject to frank and expert challenge. To help deliver that challenge I propose to appoint a chair for PHE, through an open and fair competition under the public appointments process, and I will ensure that the PHE board has a majority of non-executives members”.

Later, he refers to them as non-executive members, rather than directors, so I seek an assurance from my noble friend Lord Howe that we are talking about directors and not members. Perhaps he will confirm this.

The board will advise on the running and development of Public Health England but my right honourable friend states that he has not yet had time to consider details of this aspect of the chairman’s role. Once the chief executive post has been filled, he will discuss the overall governance structure of PHE. He will want to make sure that the expertise and experience of the chair will complement those of the chief executive and other senior PHE staff. He goes on to say:

“The essential point is, that we need to design a role for the chair that is significant enough to attract a high quality, respected candidate without diluting the responsibility of either the chief executive or the Secretary of State”.

It is very much my wish that he should involve me further in these proposals. He says that he will write to me, but I should very much like him not only to write but perhaps to seek my views on this aspect of the organisation.

In his letter the Secretary of State writes:

“The chair and non-executive directors will have direct access to Ministers through regular, and if necessary ad hoc meetings”.

I very much welcome that. He goes on:

“They will also have editorial control over a section of PHE’s annual report”.

Could my noble friend tell me what “section” means in this context, as he will know that the annual report will be a crucial document and should be honest and unfettered in its analysis of the nation’s health? He continues:

“The annual report will reflect feedback from external agencies and individuals who have significant dealings with PHE … and PHE data will be subject to the code of practice on official statistics, which severely restricts access to certain material by officials or Ministers before release”.

Although I very much welcome this, I wonder whether my noble friend could give me an assurance that Public Health England staff will be able to give professional advice freely to the public. Since they are employed by an executive agency, they will be civil servants—subject to Civil Service contracts and bound by the Civil Service Code. They will be able speak out only if what they plan to say is departmental policy and has been approved by Ministers.

If PHE is to be the voice of public health, as we hope it will be, it will need to be able to advise the public and other professional bodies. The experts and specialists working in the executive agency will on occasions need to give professional advice that has the confidence of the public without its necessarily having been approved by the department.

Public health specialists employed by the NHS Commissioning Board or a local authority will have the freedom to speak out—of course within their professional code of conduct. I am not seeking for the amendment to be placed in the Bill but an assurance that this difficult tension will be addressed.

In earlier debates, the noble Lords, Lord Warner, Lord Patel, and Lord Turnberg, voiced their strong concerns about the commissioning and conduct of research by PHE—in particular, its ability as regards research funding for external organisations. I am sure that those noble Lords will seek assurances on this.

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State writes that he accepts the importance of the issue and will publish a more detailed description of PHE’s role in research, including its relationship with academic institutions and other agencies. I am delighted that he is happy to involve me and, I hope, other noble Lords with the Chief Medical Officer in further discussions on this issue.

We have come a long way since Committee in designing a much more robust and satisfactory national board to undertake responsibilities for public health. Public health is sometimes seen as a side show in the maelstrom of issues that dominate the provision of NHS services but it contains the basic principle of social justice. It is to ensure that people have access to the essentials for a healthy and satisfying life, and nothing can be more important than that.

The Secretary of State has throughout sought to make public health centre stage, and I pay tribute to him for his commitment and determination, and thank him for listening to and acting on our suggestions. My noble friends Earl Howe and Lady Northover have been equally diligent and generous with their time in meeting our concerns. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and others would have preferred there to be a special health authority. I can understand their wish, but the flexibility that an executive agency gives us might be useful in the future. The Secretary of State has promised post-legislative scrutiny of the Bill, specifically to consider whether PHE would be better served by a different arrangement or a better organisational form. I welcome that.

I have quoted fully and, I suspect, rather boringly from the letter sent by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State because it is very unlikely that my amendment will be in the Bill. I therefore need a record of the changes that have been promised. I do not doubt for a moment that there is any intention to renege on these undertakings, but I know how easy it is for things to go astray. I am therefore anxious to get as much as I can into the pages of Hansard as a reference for the future. I very much look forward to hearing the views of other noble Lords and my noble friend’s reply. I beg to move.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I have put my name to the amendment and pay tribute to the hard work put in by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, on making progress in this area. It has occasionally seemed a little like trudging through the Somme mud, but we have made some progress. I share her view that we want to hear at length from the noble Earl about the assurances promised by the Secretary of State, particularly on the governance issue.

I want to raise in a little more detail the issues in paragraphs (b) and (c) of the amendment, regarding the ability of Public Health England to undertake and publish independent research and to bid for research funding from any source. This remains an unresolved issue. The dialogue is continuing in the Department of Health because in November a joint working party was set up between the Health Protection Agency, which is being abolished, and the department about the research activities of the new Public Health England. I remind noble Lords that this is particularly significant because at stake is the large sum of money that the HPA, as a non-departmental public body, raised for research, its own funding of research, as well as the scientific independence and excellence of its staff. There has been a great deal of concern that creating an executive agency with civil servants would make it difficult for that research quality and volume to be maintained in the new world.

Despite the Health Secretary’s assurances, concerns emanating from within the current agency remain around whether things have really been sewn up in terms of the ability of PHA, within the resources available to it, to control its destiny in the future and to go out to seek the research contracts that will enable it to meet the threats and concerns about public health that may have to be faced.

The nub of this issue comes down to a simple matter that I should like to leave with the noble Lord and on which I ask him to provide assurances. My understanding is that the problem at the moment is that the department has taken funds from the Health Protection Agency and Public Health England and made them available only for academic partnership research projects. The concern is that this might lead to Public Health England being prevented from carrying out research if that was not flavour of the month in academic institutions. There could be conflict between the concerns of academics to pursue partnership research and the real needs that the scientists within Public Health England consider to be in the public interest in terms of the research agenda to be followed. That is the main unresolved issue causing concern to the scientists within the Health Protection Agency staff who are soon-to-be-transmogrified into Public Health England.

The more assurances that the noble Earl can give the more they will satisfy not only the signatories to the amendment but the future employees of Public Health England who are to transfer as scientists to the new organisation.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Cumberlege

Tuesday 6th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I support this amendment, which is in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Warner. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, has introduced it with his customary elegance and clarity. I can see no reason why these amendments should not be made. Bearing in mind that the noble Earl was so generous to me earlier when we included HealthWatch in another amendment, I live in great hope.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. Since the noble Earl was so beastly to me over social care, I hope he will actually support this amendment.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Cumberlege

Thursday 15th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner]

I am not talking about flagging up; I am talking about a campaign. A campaign means that you take action, using the media, to put serious pressure on the Government in relation to their record in running the NHS for elderly people. I am not saying that that should happen; I am trying to understand what power this body would have as a sub-committee of the regulator, which is the point that we are discussing.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

Does the noble Lord, Lord Warner, agree that much depends on the membership of this body and whether it is independent? I am not sure why people call it a sub-committee. In the Bill it is called a committee. I have chaired the top board in organisations and I know that you get very close to some of those committees—you listen to them. If an organisation is totally independent and it goes left field, making a whole lot of noise, you just dismiss it and say, “Oh, they’re always making problems”. The opportunities are far greater if part and parcel of what it does is informing you of what is going on. I honestly think that you will listen much more carefully to people whom you meet in the corridor, in the chambers or wherever the debates are going on.

I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton. The Care Quality Commission does not always say that everything is dreadful. The Healthcare Commission used to say, “This bit’s good; this bit needs addressing”. I can see that this committee—not sub-committee—of the Care Quality Commission will serve a very useful purpose. It could put enormous pressure on the Care Quality Commission really to understand what is going on and it would not just be an irritant that is offside.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Cumberlege

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 240, I shall also speak to Amendment 242 in this group in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Patel.

Amendment 240 inserts the words “cost and” before “effectiveness” regarding the exercise of functions by various bodies that the Secretary of State must keep under review. The NHS faces an unprecedentedly long period of having to survive on short financial rations. This is now likely to extend at least two years after the 2015 election, if we are to believe the Chancellor’s utterances last week on the public finances and deficit reduction. The NHS has never delivered in any one year of its history the productivity and cost-saving requirements set by the £20 billion Nicholson challenge, which is to be produced at least four years on the trot. Most informed commentators expect a financial crisis of some kind in the NHS in the next few years, so the reality is that the Health Secretary will have to keep under close review the expenditure and costs of all the bodies listed in Clause 49. The Government should face up to this reality, in my view, as the Chancellor seems to want us to, by adding the words in Amendment 240 to the Bill.

Amendment 242 is another part of that reality checking of the NHS in the Bill. On earlier amendments I raised my concern about keeping in check the overheads and management costs of the national Commissioning Board and clinical commissioning groups, and was duly told that these were not necessary. I acknowledged then that my amendments were probably not framed as they should be. However, I am returning to this issue with Amendment 242, which requires the Secretary of State to report annually to Parliament the administrative costs of the bodies listed in Clause 49, together with the percentage of the NHS budget they represent and their percentage increase over the previous year. If the Secretary of State is doing his or her job properly, they should have this information available to them and be monitoring it closely, especially in the financial climate the NHS faces over the coming years.

We know from history how, left to their own devices, bureaucracies can expand their remits and resource consumption. Ministers never like to own up to this happening on their watch. To improve the prospects of keeping Ministers and, if I may put it this way, these big NHS beasts on the financial straight and narrow, it would be extremely helpful if the Bill required the reporting of administrative costs and their movement over time to Parliament once a year. I hope the Minister can be constructive about accepting such an amendment as it in no way challenges the Government’s reforms. I beg to move.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I have two amendments in this grouping and, lest I be drummed out of the Brownies, I would like to explain that there is a typo in the Marshalled List. It should read not “detailed merits” but “detailed remits”. As noble Lords will appreciate, there is a great difference, and I do not need any persuasion as to the merits of this Bill.

The purpose of my two amendments is to be probing; I am really just seeking clarification. The Future Forum was very widely welcomed by most people, but it further complicated the new proposals in the Bill regarding how we are to organise and manage the NHS. After years of being dictated to and micromanaged, there is a real risk of paralysis, and this at a time when commissioners need to reach decisions and be truly radical.

As I understand the proposed structure, the national Commissioning Board and clinical commissioning groups will be supported by clinical networks, clinical senates, commissioning support organisations and health and well-being boards, which will work in partnership with them. In addition, we have a new public health system, which we debated last Monday, with the creation of Public Health England and the establishment of HealthWatch England and Local HealthWatch to try to improve patient and public involvement. This has the potential to cause confusion and duplication if the Government are not clear about the accountabilities, roles and responsibilities of these different organisations. I would like to take a very serious example: it is still unclear who will take the lead on the commissioning of specialist doctors and nurses responsible for safeguarding children within the NHS.

At a national level, the movement from a single department of state to a more dispersed range of organisations, including the national Commissioning Board, Public Health England, HealthWatch England, Monitor and the Care Quality Commission, could have a similar effect. The danger is that the NHS could find itself in paralysis at just the moment that it needs to make key decisions that are crucial for the sustainability of parts of the service. In particular, some of the important decisions on potential service reconfigurations are urgent if the NHS is to meet the Nicholson challenge and at the same time fulfil its commitment to high quality and safe services to patients.

It is still unclear to me, and I know that it is to some others, how the respective responsibilities and accountabilities of commissioners, providers and regulators for quality are intended to work together. We also need to ensure that additional complexity does not result in an increased administrative burden or financial cost, as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has said, falling on healthcare organisations. I think that my noble friend gave an undertaking on that on Monday but further clarification would be welcome.

Because of these concerns about the complexity of the new structure, I am asking the Minister if he could look seriously at this issue; go beyond the organograms and design detailed remits and powers for all those in the system to minimise confusion, gaps and duplication; and be as clear as possible at the outset as the reforms are implemented, while at the same time keep under review and address any confusion, gaps and duplication between the components in the system. Change is always a challenge. The more we can reduce muddle and confusion from the outset, the more successful these reforms will be.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Cumberlege]

I just ask the supporters of the two amendments a question—the noble Lord, Lord Warner, may be the appropriate one, having been a director of social services. The amendment talks about breaking down the barriers. We are all at one with that. I was very interested in what the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, said about the Dilnot report; the noble Lord, Lord Warner, was a distinguished member of that committee, of course. Having listened to the amendment’s promoter, I thought it was very persuasive and one could see a real future there.

One of the blocks that has not been addressed in this debate is the difference in accountability in terms of the democratically elected councillors who are responsible for social care. I wonder whether the Lord, Lord Warner, had thought about ways to try to harness that to get that integration. To try to bring together two very different accountabilities is a real challenge.

[Lord Warner]

I shall briefly respond to that. We should never forget that the lion's share of the money that goes on state-funded adult social care comes from central government and is passed through local authorities to be spent on that group through the commissioning of various domiciliary, residential and even nursing home care. Although what I have crafted is a duty on the Secretary of State, a lot of this comes back to where the balance is struck between the NHS and adult social care in terms of priority and funding in Richmond House. They are all under the same departmental expenditure limit at department level.

The sense I had as a Minister was that it is a bit like the Army: you have to put a musician in the canteen. A former director of social services is kept well away from social care in Richmond House. I saw a reluctance in the NHS culture in Richmond House—which, thankfully, has changed with the arrival of David Behan —to fight for social care at the time of expenditure reviews. That is a real and serious issue. The big guns of the acute sector are alive and well in Richmond House when the expenditure review comes around. My noble friend Lord Hunt is nodding—I think enthusiastically, given his current job as chairman of a foundation trust. This is a real issue. We need a bit more balance in the statutory duty on the Secretary of State in order to align the money going into social care vis-à-vis the NHS.

There is a perfectly good point to be made at the local level. You want to see priority being given to adult social care at the local level, and you want to see openness on the part of local government—which, if I am honest, has not always been there—in working across the boundaries with people in primary care and in the NHS. That is absolutely an issue. However, if in local government you have only enough money to deal with people with substantial or critical needs, then your ability to help people with moderate needs and stop them getting worse will be restricted by the amount of resources available. It will then be extremely difficult to work across that boundary. We know that many local authorities have reprioritised their services, taking money away from other services and putting it into adult social care, but a very clear finding from the Dilnot commission was that the adult social care pot is simply not big enough. It is no good for us to keep uttering that there is a need for integration if there is not enough money at the local level for adult social care to work across the boundaries.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I speak to Amendment 260, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel. It is probably not the time to go around memory lane, but I want to draw on some experiences that I have had. I was the hapless Minister responsible for the Health Education Authority. Some people may remember the Health Education Authority. It was largely independent and its funding came through the department. I should not speak ill of the dead, but it really was a nightmare. One of my lasting memories of my modest ministerial career was when we had a Starred Question in this House, asking why government money and very scarce resources should be spent on a leaflet, produced by the Health Education Authority, entitled, I think, 69 Ways for Better Sex. It was the first that I or the department had ever heard of it. Perhaps one of the interesting things was the number of noble Lords who said they could not take part in the debate unless they had seen a copy of the leaflet.

The HEA went completely off the rails. It was only when we were reading or listening to the media that we found out what it was up to. In the end, it not only alienated the Department of Health and the Government, it alienated local health authorities, with their responsibilities for public health. It was they in the end who asked us to close it down. Well, we did. Listening to the current proposal for Public Health England to be an agency, I think that is a good idea, although I know it is very unpopular with the Faculty of Public Health and others. An executive agency, although not totally independent, will operate with a degree of autonomy from Ministers on a day-to-day basis. While not as independent perhaps as a health authority, it will be recognisable as an entity and have its own identity.

The only model that we have got in health of an executive agency is the MHRA. Its chairman, noble Lords will know, is Professor Sir Alasdair Breckenridge, who has been the chair since its inception. Sir Alasdair is a very strong individual and somebody people really respect highly. In the vernacular, he is the sort of person you do not mess with because you know you will not win; you do not even try because he is somebody with enormous integrity and presence, and runs a very good organisation. It seems a good idea to look at the MHRA model and see how it is organised. Sir Alasdair tells me that there are eight non-executives on the agency board, who form the majority and are the board. They have a very good chief executive who is a civil servant but the non-executives are not. They are drawn from right across the country with different experiences and, again, they are people of huge distinction who are very much respected.

Here is an example or model that actually works. It has been tried and tested, and is a model we could certainly adapt for Public Health England. However, I suggest to my noble friend that the important thing is to keep the public health constituency with us on this. It is important that it has a real involvement in choosing the chairman of this new agency. If it is involved, that will go someway to ensuring the agency will be a success. It should also be involved in the recruitment and appointment of the non-executive members. We have a highly credible organisation here that could be a very good model for Public Health England and I hope my noble friend will consider those points about the appointment of the chairman and the non-executives, and the formation of that board.

[Lord Warner]

I was the Minister responsible for the MHRA and very much share the noble Baroness’s views on this. There are some slight differences, one of which is that a lot of the funding for the MHRA, in effect, comes from the pharmaceutical industry, in terms of licence fees. However, I was well aware of the MHRA experience, and my own experience of it, in trying to craft Amendment 257ZA, which does bear some resemblance to that. I certainly would not argue with the idea that the number of non-executives under my amendment should be larger than three—it does say “at least three”. I will certainly go along with her that some outside expertise, in quite substantial numbers among the non-executives, is an extremely good model.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Cumberlege

Monday 28th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, can I ask the noble Earl a couple of questions, on which I would be grateful if he could write to me and to any other noble Lords who are interested? I found two of his answers a bit unconvincing. The first was on Amendment 144, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Patel. I would really like to know how the Minister will ensure that the board will disseminate this information on patient safety and put it in the public arena to a wide group of people. At the moment, as the Bill is, it is left totally to the discretion of the board as to how it will behave. Secondly, I did not find the Minister’s answer on rare diseases and mandatory guidance very convincing. I would really like to know what discussions have taken place with those such as the Royal College of General Practitioners and clinical commissioning groups, about their appetite for making local decisions on these very rarefied diseases without the kind of mandatory guidance that the noble Lord, Lord Patel, spoke about. I do not expect an answer now but I would like some more written guidance on that.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I was heartened by a lot of what my noble friend said about maternity services, but it seems that the variations will be reduced through NICE quality standards. I understand that NICE has a very long queue of services to be considered for quality standards and I wonder whether my noble friend and the Government have any influence over which services have priority to have their standards set early and which will have to wait. As maternity involves a tremendous number of women who are giving birth, it is really important to get it in the front of the queue, as far as possible.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Cumberlege

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner]

I never thought that I would be outflanked on the Stalinist wing of the Labour Party by any Member of your Lordships’ House, but clearly I have that all wrong. I would be happy to strengthen these proposals because I rather share my noble friend’s view that I may be being a little wimpish here, but I was deferring to the elected politicians on this, probably unwisely. I am producing this rather wimpish proposal, but somewhere along the way we certainly have to have a trigger that is independent of the political process. We need some outside facilitation of change with the local people and we have to restrict, to some extent, the ability of elected Ministers to totally undo or avoid taking decisions in this area, possibly as much as my noble friend is saying.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

Those words are so warm to my heart, I cannot tell the noble Lord how much. One of the things that really concerns me is delay. I am worried that if we get this outside group it will delay matters, because some of this is very urgent at the moment. What is the relationship between this and the independent review panel—I am not sure what it is called—which deals with hospitals at the moment?

[Baroness Cumberlege]

I am indebted to my noble friend for that. Does the Independent Reconfiguration Panel play a part in this? Is it something different? Do we have to go through that as well, in which case it will take even longer?

[Lord Warner]

Something equivalent to the Independent Reconfiguration Panel was used earlier in the system. It was put in to bat with the local area by Monitor when it saw trouble coming down the railway track in the form of failure. I envisage that a standing group of people would be approved to work in this area, which Monitor would be able to assemble very quickly. My amendment proposes that a timescale is set for this panel to work with local people and to come back with a solution to the problem, but I think that more people than are currently approved for the reconfiguration panel will be needed because of the points made by my noble friend. In many parts of the country we are likely to have to intervene quite quickly because we have spent a lot of time over the past 10 or 20 years putting off decisions about some of these places. A lot of these places will come to Ministers, the national Commissioning Board and Monitor over the next few years, so we will need quite a few different panels.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Cumberlege

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, it would be very helpful if the Minister could say something about the proposals with regard to the accounts and financial statements made by CCGs, which will obviously depend a great deal on the guidance from the board.

I am concerned that a number of clinical commissioning groups without any great knowledge of how to deal with audit and financial problems will emerge. You could quite quickly see a commissioning group getting into difficulties, not because it was not performing well but because it had very little awareness of requirements relating to information on its conduct in relation to assets and finances that was needed to establish its standing as a proper clinical commissioning group. I am concerned because there is already some evidence of clinical commissioning groups seeming rather unclear about the accounting standards that they have to live by. It is important that the board makes very clear indeed what its expectations are and that it involves, as the amendment would require, the National Audit Office, which will become—and in some ways is already—a fundamental arbiter on the quality and standards of accounting practices.

I hope that the Government will consider the amendment carefully and that the Minister will let us know what the Government’s intentions are with regard to setting out the standards that they expect from clinical commissioning groups and that the board should lay down. The Bill is currently uncommunicative on the subject.

The whole process of procuring the pharmaceutical and other products that a commissioning group will need is always problematic. It is crucial that what is required is clearly set out, and that there is an indication under which we can compare one clinical commissioning group with another.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I should like to probe the amendment a little further because I think that it has a lot of merit, especially when one considers the PFI arrangements that have so destroyed the financial situation within the NHS.

I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Warner, about the accountability of the body. As I understand it, it is to be independent. I presume that he means independent in its membership as well as the way in which it works. I wonder where that accountability lies, whether there is a relationship with the business plan of the Commissioning Board and how the noble Lord sees the body working. Will the panel run for years and years, or will it exist just to set the standards at the beginning? Perhaps we could have a fuller picture.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I am seeking to set up something that would function in the early years of the national Commissioning Board. It would be independent in the sense that I did not want it to be dominated by NHS finance people. I want it to be a broader group of people than just those who have worked in the NHS. There is a tendency on the part of the NHS to think of itself as unique, special and different from other businesses, whereas it is a business which needs some business systems in it.

I am not someone who wants to keep bodies going in perpetuity. I am certainly open to negotiation on how long this one exists. I feel more strongly about the National Audit Office keeping an eye on this area. The national Commissioning Board needs some outside help to get this started, particularly in asset management, which is a long neglected area in the NHS, as I think the noble Baroness knows.

Some of the problems with PFI which she mentioned arise from the fact that the NHS has not had a track record of looking after its assets. It does not see them in the terms that a more commercial organisation would do. Many of the things that have gone wrong with PFI are not to do with there being anything inherently wrong with it, because it delivered a lot more hospitals more quickly and effectively than previous public procurement systems. What went wrong was the hubris in the NHS in many parts of the country about its ability to build a Taj Mahal district general hospital with some very dodgy income/revenue flows spread over time, most of the contracts being for 30 years. If one looks at the quality of some of the financial management in the NHS, it is not surprising that it could not do a very good job, even with some outside help, of getting a realistic idea of the revenue that it was likely to generate over 25 to 30 years to fund those projects.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Cumberlege

Monday 14th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner]

I think that the noble Baroness is experienced enough, like me, to remember the 1974 reorganisation of the NHS, where we ended up debating whether area gymnasts should be appointed. Therefore, I have every sympathy with her particular line of argument.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I am very grateful for that intervention. I have no experience of gymnasts and, sadly, I cannot remember that particular time. However, I have chaired very big boards. I have chaired a board of 26 and it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare because we are such a lovely nation and we always try to get consensus. Trying to do that takes time and tough and speedy decisions are not taken. In the end, the board loses the grip necessary to manage the service, the organisation or whatever it is in charge of. Therefore, I strongly support my noble friend on the issue of having 11 members on the board. When one has a very large board, a clique forms; one gets a few people who in the end run the board. They run it outside board meetings. They make the decisions before they come to the board. One gets a body of people who are responsible on the board but are actually disenfranchised—they are accountable but disenfranchised—and I think that that makes the board totally dysfunctional. Therefore, we should resist the temptation to have representatives on the board. We need a chairman with considerable leadership skills; a chief executive of proven management expertise; executives who know the business; and non-executives who bring a breadth of experience.

I have some sympathy with the arguments that have been put on the issue of the Director of Public Health but I wish to reserve my position on that, as I do on the suggestion put forward by my noble friend Lady Jolly on HealthWatch England, because it could be that the board, or whoever, might decide that there is a non-executive who has wider experience and possibly could be more effective on the board than the chairman of HealthWatch England. This needs discretion and we should leave it in the hands of the board and the Bill and not try to make it representative.

In an earlier debate the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, who is not in his place today, referred to the “fatal tendency” of the NHS to be bureaucratic and exercise producer catch-up. He said that:

“the tendency of any organisation that is in a monopolistic position [is] to be run for the convenience and in the interests of those who are providing the service, whether doctors, nurses, managers or whatever”.—[Official Report, 9/11/11; col. 251.].

We have to be very careful that we do not fall into that situation and we must try to address that “fatal tendency”, as he described it.

I wish to make one comment on the seductive amendment on limiting the numbers to be employed to 500. That again is a mistake. If we set a number, it is very likely that that number will be reached where possibly only 100 are required. It needs a great deal of scrutiny by the Secretary of State and others, through the mandate, to see what the board is doing and whether it is effective and keeping to its budget, which I am sure will be closely watched. I would like to keep the number on the board to 11.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Cumberlege

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I very strongly support the spirit of Clause 4, and I oppose the amendment that the clause should no longer stand part of the Bill. I accept that it could be amended and could be clearer, but I want to hold to its spirit.

In the past I have put down six amendments to two major health Bills in an attempt to achieve something similar to what is in Clause 4. I have to say that my attempts, although I was supported by the King’s Fund, were puny compared with the weight of this mighty Bill. I hoped that my time had almost come. I say almost, because I know that the Minister, in his letter dated 7 November to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, which the noble Lord, Lord Warner, mentioned, is suggesting a strategy. I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, does not like this strategy. In contrast, I do. One of the real hallmarks of this House is that we try to negotiate and accommodate what we, as a whole in this House, feel is appropriate.

In revising and amending the Bill, I appreciate that an enormous amount of time and care—

[Lord Warner]

I am not opposed to having a strategy, if I may say so to the noble Baroness, and I thank her for giving way. However, when a Bill reaches this House with a major clause in it, it has been through the other place and has been subject to a lot of scrutiny by Professor Field and his group, the Future Forum, it is reasonable to assume that the drafting does not have the kind of loopholes that this clause has. I am not the only one raising this; other people are raising the same issue. There is a lot of concern outside. We are not opposed to having a strategy, but it is reasonable to expect the Government to have got the Bill into a better shape than it was in before it came here.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I thought that that was the whole purpose of Committee stage. This stage is intended to question some of these concerns and to see whether a resolution can be achieved.

[Lord Warner]

The noble Earl is taking this clause out of the Committee stage, so far as I understand his proposal. If the strategy is to take clauses out when the going gets rough, that does not seem to be in keeping with the spirit and behaviour of this House.