Copyright (Public Administration) Regulations 2014

Debate between Lord Walton of Detchant and Lord Clement-Jones

Wednesday 14th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Walton of Detchant (CB)]

To follow up the point made by my noble and learned friend, perhaps I may briefly ask the Minister whether these welcome modifications to copyright law will in any way have an impact on or amend the procedures followed by the Authors’ Licensing and Collecting Society, which provides modest sums for authors if their works are subsequently copied through libraries or other mechanisms. Will they affect that procedure of the ALCS?

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

I thank the Minister warmly for his introduction. Whatever comments I may have on the substance of the exceptions, I thank him for his careful navigation and assiduous consultation and communication in the run-up to these SIs being tabled, including for the way in which the regulations have been presented to Parliament. I also thank him for his willingness to debate the issues, as we did last December and before the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee recently. We should thank both the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for their careful scrutiny. I am pleased to hear from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott, and to see that the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, is in her place, as is the chair of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad.

There were some very good reasons for this careful scrutiny. After all, copyright is the foundation of our creative industries’ success and the economic driver of growth for this sector, which contributes £71.4 billion to the UK economy. The reform of copyright should be handled sensitively, with the value of the creative industries and any negative impact caused by changes to the law firmly in mind. Wrongly formulated, the exceptions could potentially deter investment in the industries and weaken performers’ and creators’ ability to benefit financially from their work.

It is also an extremely technical area of law. It has been pointed out by many experts that the Government’s proposed changes to primary copyright law implemented by way of secondary legislation risk not being compliant with our obligations under EU directives and incorrectly implement related legislation. It is notable that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee remarked from the outset in its report on the strength of opinion on the question of contract override, which I attempted to highlight in our December debate. It also said that,

“we flag up the possibility that the changes will have a greater economic impact on producers and creators than the Government have so far envisaged”—

a point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott. The committee expressly says that it is not persuaded by the Minister’s statement that the changes are relatively minor. This particularly applies to the personal copies for private use exception, to be debated in future.

The Government cannot have it both ways. They cannot say that these exceptions will have minimal effect and then claim that there will be a benefit of a total of £500 million to the UK economy over 10 years for all five of the exceptions and £250 million for those that we are discussing today. In fact, in the Commons committee, a number of MPs drew attention to inadequacies with the impact assessments and sought to probe further how the figure of £500 million was arrived at. Where does this figure come from? Can we have a complete breakdown? Are the Government certain that this benefit is without any loss on the other side of the equation, a point raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott? How do the Government plan to monitor whether this benefit is achieved?

As a result of one of the key conclusions, where I wholeheartedly agree with the SLSC, the instruments are to be reviewed by the Intellectual Property Office no later than April 2019. The committee said:

“We would urge the Government to monitor the impact of the changes from the point of implementation, and in particular to respond effectively if it becomes clear that any negative potential is being realised”.

Can the Minister give that assurance? Can he commit to repealing these regulations if there is overwhelming evidence of a negative impact?

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Walton of Detchant and Lord Clement-Jones

Monday 19th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Walton of Detchant]

My Lords, I have the greatest respect for my noble friend Lord Owen—a noted Health Secretary and Foreign Secretary, and someone who made a major contribution towards peace in the Balkans. He became, obviously, one of the glitterati of British politics. Many of your Lordships may not be aware that he began training as a registrar in neurology at St Thomas’s Hospital and I often contemplate what might have happened to his future career if he had stuck with neurology and not turned to politics.

While I talk of neurology, may I just say to the noble Lord, Lord Deben, that I was the neurologist on the Southwood working party on BSE which gave advice to the Government on that tragic, difficult problem in 1988? I am very glad that we got that advice right—we learnt a lot about the assessment of risk at that time.

To return to this Bill and the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, which, with some difficulty, I feel that I cannot support, I am a fervent supporter of the National Health Service. I spent much of my professional life working in it and in academic medicine, and when this Bill was introduced into your Lordships’ House I joined with the voices of the BMA, the royal colleges, the nursing organisations and many others in saying that in my opinion the Bill was potentially damaging to the NHS and that it was unacceptable. However, we have moved on. I have been involved with many of your Lordships in the lengthy, at times almost interminable, debates which have improved this Bill beyond recognition. It is not perfect, and there are still issues which perhaps need to be handled by regulation, but it is an infinitely better Bill than the one which came originally into this House. For that reason, any further delay would be unacceptable.

Having said that, I was greatly touched by the wise words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, and by the very wise words of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, who has been a tower of strength throughout all the debates in this House. I genuinely believe that if the medical organisations which are continuing to express their complete opposition to the Bill had fully appreciated the enormous number of amendments that have been carried and accepted by the Government in this House, they would not be continuing to take their stance as fiercely as they are. The Bill has been transformed; for that reason, if your Lordships will forgive the cliché, enough is enough. We are where we are. It is time to give this Bill a Third Reading.

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Walton, who, as we all know, carries such respect on health matters in this House. I do not doubt the sincerity of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, in his fundamental opposition to the whole Bill. Indeed, he expressed it very clearly in his Observer article yesterday. He put the arguments very fairly on his Motion, but I have absolutely no hesitation in disagreeing with it today—and I say to him, in his capacity as a doctor, that I feel no physical or mental discomfort with a whipped vote on the matter, for the very key reason that my noble friend Lady Williams mentioned.

The risk register whose publication is being requested was written as long ago as November 2010. It will certainly not relate to the Bill being considered today, as it was drawn up many months before the pause in the Bill’s proceedings. Many changes to the Bill were made as a result of the Future Forum process, headed up by Professor Steve Field. The Bill was then changed significantly in Committee and on Report in this House, as the recent House of Commons research paper makes absolutely clear. The risks identified in the register are therefore those of the old Bill, long since superseded, or even of the White Paper which preceded it. It will have been based on worst-case scenarios—