Investigatory Powers Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Butler of Brockwell

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 2nd November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, I have been second to none in this House in supporting the importance of this legislation. I have taken part at various stages and have contributed in a minor way to its improvement. The powers it replaces do not expire until the end of the year. If the House of Commons again rejects —as I expect it will—the amendments that are being passed today and they come back to this House, I will not then support them, because I do not want to see the Bill delayed. However, this is an opportunity to show that this House believes strongly that the Government mean what they say about a proper consultation on the pursuit of Leveson.

I do not think I am alone in suspecting that the Statement made by the Government yesterday was a diversionary tactic. I hope it was not, but we have an opportunity today to show that this House really believes that this must be pursued seriously and that action must be taken—perhaps on a compromise basis—to achieve the objectives of the Leveson report.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

To follow the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, I think it important that the other place be given another chance to think about the Bill. To date, it has had only one opportunity to consider it, based on the amendments your Lordships’ House passed when the Bill was in this House. There will be another opportunity.

As has been pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker and noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, a number of Conservative Members yesterday during the questions following the Statement by the Secretary of State at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport indicated that they were not persuaded by the Government’s case for not yet implementing Section 40. Dr Andrew Murrison asked whether the Secretary of State agreed,

“that it would be reasonable to accept Baroness Hollins’ amendments”,

and Sir Gerald Howarth—not someone I am usually given to quoting with approval—asked:

“Does she not agree that a great virtue of the Leveson inquiry was that it took this whole contentious issue out of the hands of politicians; that by going for this consultation, which she will respond to, she is in danger of embroiling politicians in the issue again; and that low-cost arbitration has to be part of the solution?”.—[Official Report, Commons, 1/11/16; col. 806.]

So there is some indication that even on the Government Benches in the Commons, there are Members who are not persuaded of the Government’s position. I hope that one might describe it as a consultation of convenience that it came along when it did.

I will come back to that point but, on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick—which has been addressed by the noble Lord, Lord Butler—we know that the legislation which this Bill as a whole seeks to replace has a sunset clause. That clause is just under two months away; we have heard from the Minister that even if your Lordships vote for the Motion of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, today, it will be another two weeks until the House has the chance to consider it again. There is no urgency on the Government’s part to get Royal Assent this week.

It is also clear that the content of the Bill is in no way threatened by the amendments proposed by the noble Baroness. They are supplementary and do not detract in any way from the security issues which have been a matter of considerable debate on the part of your Lordships and, indeed, the House of Commons. They seek to address the very specific reasons that were put forward by Ministers and in the other place as to why this was not a suitable amendment. She has sought to, as it were, uncouple these amendments from the other parts of the Bill. They are supplementary and in no way detract from the security issues in the Bill.

As I indicated when we debated this matter on Report, for me what is important is that commitments were made to Parliament—to both the House of Commons and your Lordships’ House—back in March 2003, when various amendments were withdrawn: amendments to the Defamation Bill that your Lordships’ House had passed and amendments that had been tabled, I believe, to the Enterprise Bill and, in the other place, to the Crime and Courts Bill. They were withdrawn on a clear understanding that certain amendments going forward to the then Crime and Courts Bill would be implemented. I was part of the group who worked on the cross-party agreement, although I was not present when it was reached. Subsequently I also did much on a royal charter so that press regulation would be taken as far away from politicians as possible. The commitments made to Parliament are in jeopardy through the Government not implementing Section 40. More importantly, commitments were made to some of the victims of hacking. We should remember that the amendment we are discussing does not go as far as Section 40: it relates only to phone hacking. Along with the then Deputy Prime Minister, my right honourable friend Nick Clegg, I met the parents of Milly Dowler. Two things that struck me were their great dignity but also the great pain they had suffered. The Prime Minister gave commitments to them and other victims that there would be an inquiry, which took place, and that efforts would be made to ensure that such things did not happen again. These commitments trump any consultation. That is why I support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins.

Scotland: Independence

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Butler of Brockwell

Monday 13th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I take my noble friend’s point about the importance of communicating the arguments. The paper on currency to which I have just referred in my response to the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, had so many points in it that some did not necessarily get the full airing that they might have. The next paper in the series will be on the financial services industry, and numerous issues could arise from that. It is not anticipated that there will be any separate government publication in the run-up to the election in the way that there was in the run-up to the EU referendum of 1975. However, it is important that the Government communicate these important messages and arguments for the union in a way that is readily accessible. It is important that they are underpinned by some weighty analysis, but there is also a case to be made for making sure that the arguments are readily available to the public.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

My Lords, what guidance has been given to the Civil Service about maintaining neutrality between the two sides in the lead-up to the referendum on independence?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I recall that some time ago, following the election of the present Scottish Government, the previous Cabinet Secretary gave some indication that Scottish civil servants working for the Scottish Government would be expected, as are UK government civil servants, to promote the policy of their Government. Likewise, civil servants working for the Scottish Government, albeit that they are UK civil servants, will be expected to work towards the policy of the Scottish Government.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Butler of Brockwell

Monday 19th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I recall having read, in the past 24 hours, a particular phrase from the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, to which the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, refers. I could take the Joint Committee on Human Rights in isolation but numerous other Select Committees could start making requests and the point I am trying to make is that if the ISC started to receive requests—indeed, it is possible at the moment and no doubt the committee considers them—but on a statutory basis, the concern would be that if the committee decided to respond positively to those requests, that would detract from its core function and purpose. Equally, the point I was making was that if it regularly refused action, that could lead to tension and detract from what we are trying to achieve by way of a greater closeness between the new committee and Parliament.

There is also the point that I was making about the information. By its very nature, some of that information will be extremely sensitive and will be classified as secret or top secret, according to the government system of protective markings, but the ISC, in its accommodation, staffing and procedures is set up to handle sensitive information. The ISC secretariat is vetted and its accommodation is secure. However, other committees are not set up to deal with such information, nor are they, we believe, in a proper position to assess the damage that disclosure could cause. If the ISC refuses to provide information, again, that could lead to tensions between committees.

The new ISC will need to consider how it works with Select Committees and with Parliament more broadly, but I am concerned that the provision suggested in this amendment might serve to skew or disrupt the ISC’s work programme and its reputation could be damaged by refusals to take forward work or pass on information. It is important that the ISC can direct its own work programme as far as possible and focus its efforts on issues that it, with its unique perspective, thinks are most important. I appreciate the intention behind the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, but I hope that they will reflect on the concerns that have been expressed and feel able to withdraw it.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s sympathetic reaction to Amendments 18 and 23. I will make two glosses on it. If I heard him right, he said that Amendment 18 would leave solely to the judgment of the ISC the test for considering an operational matter. I think he is thinking of the amendment that was moved in Committee because this amendment removes both the ISC and the Prime Minister. The Bill says:

“The ISC may … consider any particular operational matter but only so far”,

and it goes on to say that the matter,

“is not part of any ongoing intelligence”.

In other words, it means that it is a matter of fact and not something that the ISC could decide by itself.

The second point is that the Minister spoke about it as if these were matters where the committee asked for information from the agencies. However, as I think the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, will confirm, that is not usually the case. The circumstances are that the agencies themselves take the initiative in reporting to the committee. They give the information—I should think that that is the case nine times out of 10. It would be a great pity if that closeness that exists between the ISC and the agencies were to be inhibited by a requirement that the agencies clear their lines with the Prime Minister before they can report such a matter.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I hope that I gave reassurance that we recognise some of the issues that the noble Lord raised and that there is certainly a willingness to work through this. There is certainly no intention to retreat from the things which have normally been part and parcel of the ISC’s operations and deliberations up until now.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

I am very grateful to the Minister. On the basis on those assurances, I am very happy to withdraw Amendment 18.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Butler of Brockwell

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

My Lords, I sense that it would be convenient for the Committee if we finished this debate before the dinner hour, so I shall confine myself to just two or three sentences. I think that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, has made all the points that I want to make, as has my noble friend Lady Manningham-Buller.

I am one of your Lordships’ representatives on the Intelligence and Security Committee. We visited the United States and our experience would endorse what Mr David Anderson said—that the flow of intelligence from the United States is being limited. I do not want to exaggerate this but the point is that the trust of the US has been weakened and we need to restore that trust. It matters not that the grounds for the breaking of that trust may not be justified. It has been diminished and, unless we can respect the control principle completely and unless other countries believe that information that they give to us will be protected in all circumstances, that trust cannot be restored. So I absolutely agree with the noble and learned Lord. We do not want to give the courts let-outs and we do not want to have a balance; if we have any exceptions, we will not be completely trusted. The responsibility must rest on the Secretary of State and only if that happens can other countries be assured that their confidences are safe with us.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. Initially, my noble friend Lord Lester set up the framework of what a Norwich Pharmacal order is like and how it is sought. I am particularly grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, for very clearly indicating some of the consequences of a Norwich Pharmacal order being granted, unlike what we were debating earlier in terms of civil proceedings in an action for damages where it is always open to the Government to settle or to abandon a case or a defence, rather than put information into the public domain. In this case, we are dealing with a court order requiring disclosure.

This is a difficult issue and one to which we have given considerable thought. The aim of a Norwich Pharmacal application is to force a third party who is mixed up in the suspected wrongdoing of another to disclose information that the claimant needs. In the case of sensitive information, this has usually been for another set of legal proceedings elsewhere, often overseas. It is an equitable remedy developed, as has been said, in the intellectual property sphere. However, since 2008 there have been no fewer than nine attempts to use this jurisdiction in relation to disclosure of sensitive material, such as secret intelligence, which either belongs to the United Kingdom Government or which our allies have shared with us.

As has been said, the Government do not have an option to withdraw from or seek to settle these proceedings. If a judge orders disclosure and a PII claim is unsuccessful in relation to the material, there is no option other than to release the sensitive material. We have had experience of the damage done to our interests of national security—it has been referred to in more than one contribution to this debate—in the dramatic effect of the Binyam Mohamed case on our intelligence-sharing relationship with the United States.

My noble friend Lord Lester and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said—it has been said in a number of discussions around this issue—that no national security information was disclosed in the Binyam Mohamed case; it had already been put into the public domain in the United States. The real concern arises out of the Court of Appeal ordering that seven paragraphs which had been redacted from the Divisional Court’s judgment and which contained a summary of US intelligence reporting should be restored to the judgment despite the existence of a PII certificate from the Foreign Secretary. A critical factor in the Court of Appeal’s reasoning was that a court in the United States had made findings of fact directly relevant to the content of that reporting.

The judge in the United States case did not put the contents, or a summary thereof, of the United States intelligence into the public domain; he made findings of fact based on allegations about Binyam Mohamed’s treatment made in another case that were not challenged by the US Government. Crucially, knowledge of the content of the United States intelligence reporting was not in the public domain until the publication of the redacted paragraphs following the order of the UK Court of Appeal. It is the means by which the UK had had the information that was the sensitive part and we believe that what has happened since, as reflected by a number of contributions to this debate, not least the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, has had a real effect on the flow of information.

The noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, made the point that, although very obviously any immediate life-threatening information in the hands of the United States intelligence services would be handed to us, very rarely does that happen. Obviously, if there was direct information about a possible terrorist attack tomorrow there is no doubt that they would share it with us, but as I understand the nature of the intelligence process, it may be one part of a jigsaw puzzle that does not necessarily mean anything to the United States intelligence people who would normally share it with us, but it might be a crucial part of the jigsaw puzzle for the United Kingdom intelligence services, because it might allow a picture to be made that was not possible before. It is the loss of that kind of material that would spark concern.

The Government have received clear signals that, if we are unable to safeguard material shared by foreign partners, we can expect the depth and breadth of sensitive material shared with us to reduce significantly. Each time a claim is made, our partners must confront the possibility of their secrets being disclosed, even if the case never reaches the point where a court orders disclosure. It is that concern that we seek to address.

Obviously, I recognise that efforts that have been made in framing these amendments to deal with the very difficult issues that we are grappling with. My noble friends Lord Lester and Lord Hodgson have tabled amendments that would restrict the clauses relating to Norwich Pharmacal relief to control principle material. By that we mean the important concept that in intelligence exchanges it is essential that the originator of the material remains in control of its handling and dissemination. My noble friends have rightly observed that, in explaining the Bill, the Government have highlighted the particular difficulty where individuals seek disclosure of material covered by the control principle, but the case for reform goes wider than that. This was acknowledged in the closing comments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and I think that I made reference to it on Second Reading. We must also protect intelligence gathered and generated by our own intelligence services as well. The lives and safety of intelligence service staff, as well as the safety of their sources and the effectiveness of the techniques that they use to gather information, could be jeopardised if information is disclosed. Preventing the disclosure of sensitive material produced through the capabilities of our own intelligence services is as important, I submit, to our national interest as protecting material that has been shared by our allies.

The intelligence services have a legal obligation to protect the safety of sources, including, where applicable, the duty under Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights. The secrecy of operations and investigations and the limit or the extent of the intelligence services’ coverage and capability are all of crucial importance and, if they were compromised, it would be harder to prevent terrorist attacks and protect public safety. Limiting the protection afforded by Clause 13 to control principle material would diminish the Government’s ability to protect domestically generated intelligence. We believe that this could have severe impacts on the direct activities of our intelligence services as well as on intelligence-sharing relationships.

On a practical level, limiting the definition to control principle material would be challenging. It is often difficult or unfeasible to separate control principle material from domestic material. For example, there may be correspondence between the intelligence services commenting on control principle material, or assessments based on a mix of domestic and foreign material, which it would be difficult to distinguish between. There are therefore inherent difficulties in identifying what qualifies as control principle material. As has been mentioned in the debate, Mr David Anderson QC discussed these practical difficulties in his recent evidence to the Joint Committee on Human Rights and the control principle itself is part of the broader principle that intelligence relationships should remain confidential.

The amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford would remove the absolute exemption for intelligence service material and rely instead on a certificate-based process for sensitive material whose disclosure would be damaging to the interests of national security or international relations. In a commendably concise intervention, he asked what the justification for the absolute bar is. Unlike in other parts of government, the work of the intelligence services is inevitably covert and secret. We have heard arguments that there may well be cases that would fall under the exemption but where the material sought is not sensitive. The simple fact is that material from the intelligence services sought in Norwich Pharmacal applications is, by its nature, security-sensitive and its disclosure would damage the public interest in safeguarding national security. Applicants do not seek open-source information or other unclassified material from the intelligence services.

I note the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, about the hypothetical case where he slips. The obvious thing to do there would be to sue the agency, which is the occupier. If it wished to bring in a third party, the contractors, it could do so and all the normal processes would flow from that. All the cases that have arisen under this have been dealing with applications in respect of very sensitive materials.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Butler of Brockwell

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I will certainly mull over that point. However, in coming up with any definition, we would want to be very careful that it did not exclude things that should be included or include things that perhaps should be excluded. We will look very carefully at what he has said. The intention is that the concept should be a narrow one that will come into play in a very small number of cases. However, the definition set out in the amendment would not cover everything that is damaging to national security. Factors that are damaging to national security can change in accordance with assessments about the threat to the country. That was reflected in the contributions we have had, not least from the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller. If the definition is too narrow, we take the risk of legislation becoming unfit for the purpose for which it is intended. Sensitive intelligence and security material which security intelligence agencies hold and which is so vital to the discharge of their important statutory functions will have been acquired by them in a variety of ways and from a variety of different sources. Not all national security-sensitive material held by the security and intelligence agencies will by any means relate to, or be the result of, operations.

In view of this, we believe that the amendment is unduly limiting. For example, if information has been shared with United Kingdom agencies in confidence by foreign intelligence agencies, or has been disclosed to them in confidence by human sources, the amendment would not enable such information to be used within a CMP, however sensitive the provenance of the information and however confidential the relationship. There could also be a situation where the agencies have undertaken preliminary research and analysis before deciding whether there is a sufficient national security case to justify embarking on an intelligence operation. Information generated during the course of that preliminary work, whether or not an actual operation ensued, could well be highly sensitive in security terms and of significant relevance in a particular case. However, if the amendment was accepted, it would not be possible to use the information.

I think that it was the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who said that there was a danger that the amendment was both too broad and too narrow at the same time. It could also go wider, in that not all matters—including operations by the military—would relate to national security. In fairness, my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts accepted that the terms of the amendment might not be ideal. It is perhaps illustrative of the fact that any attempt to make a definition can often be either too limiting or too broad. The Bill recognises that national security is very much an issue for the Secretary of State.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

My Lords, in supporting the noble and learned Lord’s argument that the definition should not be too narrow, perhaps I may take him back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. He sought to establish that national security was a narrow definition by invoking the categories in new Section 59A(5), as inserted by Clause 5, which are,

“national security … the prevention or detection of serious crime”,

and,

“the economic well-being of the United Kingdom”.

It must be the case that national security would include some of those other categories. The most obvious one is,

“the prevention or detection of serious crime”,

which might be terrorist crime.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, the Green Paper suggested that there might well be the category of the prevention of serious crime. That was considered by the Government. I indicated earlier in my remarks that the Bill deliberately omitted from the definition other aspects of the public interest from the CMP clauses, such as international relations and the prevention or detection of crime, although they do apply in other statutory CMPs. But the consideration of the representations received in response to the Green Paper was to make it solely matters that would be damaging to national security.

The policy of successive Governments and the practice of Parliament has not been to define the term “national security”. As a number of your Lordships accepted, it has been to retain the flexibility needed to ensure that the use of the term can adapt to changing circumstances —for example, changes to the threat environment and advances in technology. The nature of national security threats and risks is constantly evolving. That, in turn, requires the Government and the security and intelligence agencies to maintain their ability to evolve.

My noble friend Lord Lothian suggested that it would be better to leave this open and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, accepted that it was not always possible to be definitive. The current approach is based on the recognition that this is a flexible concept which evolves in the light of changing circumstances. As my noble friend Lord Hodgson said, we want to avoid a legal straitjacket. The risk of any attempt to be precise and exhaustive would be to constrain the ability of the security and intelligence agencies to adapt their operational approach and develop capabilities to meet new and unexpected changing threats.

I will conclude with a pertinent example. Neither weapons of mass destruction proliferation nor cyber attacks feature in what is fortunately a non-exhaustive list of threats to national security which the Security Service is specifically charged with countering in Section 1 of the Security Service Act 1989. But who could deny that, some 23 years later, these activities represent serious threats to the UK’s national security? The flexibility is there for the security services to be charged with responsibilities without there being an exhaustive list.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, accepted that there might not necessarily be a statutory definition and he raised a question about guidelines. I will certainly consider guidelines, but I am not entirely sure where they would fit into the guidance being given to the court, even with the help of the ISC in devising them. However, I know that the suggestion was made in a constructive manner and I will certainly think about it in a constructive way. I do not readily see how it will fit in, but I will certainly consider it. He may wish to elaborate on what he had in mind.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Butler of Brockwell

Wednesday 14th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

That is not the case, as we know. I was making the point that this Parliament was not elected as a fixed-term Parliament. I am sure if the noble Baroness thinks about it, she will appreciate this. The arguments, I recall, when we debated the benefits of four or five years and whether it would affect the legislative plan of Governments coming into office, were that this would not happen with this Parliament, as that was not the basis on which it was elected. I am saying that you really need the experience of a full fixed-term Parliament to see whether the claims that have been made for it have been borne out. Therefore there is no way that is disrespectful—it is the only time you can have a meaningful post-legislative review, unless you are simply going to have an academic one rather than one based properly on experience.

I say again that I believe that this House has made an important contribution to this Bill and that its shape—in particular the trigger mechanisms for an early election—is vastly better because of the debates that we had. This Government are prepared to listen and have shown their willingness to do so. However, we cannot agree to something that we believe actually goes to the heart of the Bill and undermines one of its central purposes. For that reason, we cannot agree with the Motion as proposed, but we believe that it is proper and right to have a proper post-legislative review; one which, if the fixed-term Parliaments take their normal course, would have to be started within just over one month after the election or no later than six months after that. There is a set time limit under which the Prime Minister would have to make the necessary arrangements. On that basis, I commend that amendment in lieu to the House.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

I thank those who have taken part in this debate. I particularly say to the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, that of course I accept that this is a disagreement—a disagreement on a very important constitutional matter, on which, I think, everybody agrees there has not been the normal preparation for a major change on a constitutional matter. That is the argument for allowing a sunrise clause, which will allow the next Parliament to take a view, in the light of further deliberation, consideration and consultation, and, indeed, of experience. Those who read the debate in the House of Commons last week will know that there are views on both sides of that House on this matter. As has been said, both on the government and the opposition side, there is concern about, and opposition to, the Bill as it stands.

The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, said, in his very eloquent way, that the House of Lords never has to give way to this Bill, strictly speaking, because it is not covered by the Parliament Act. I sincerely hope that it does not come to that but, in the House of Commons debate last week, it was a Conservative Member who—making the point that the Bill is not covered by the Parliament Act—said that the House of Lords can hold out indefinitely if necessary. I am not arguing for that at all but would like to have the sort of serious discussions with the Government on a serious constitutional matter that so far—I am sorry to say—the Government have not been prepared to have. In the House of Commons last week, the Labour spokesman said of the Member who pointed to the effect of the Parliament Act:

“The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: your lordships, stand firm”.—[Official Report, Commons, 8/9/11; col. 592.]

I very much hope that the House of Lords tonight will stand firm, with a view to enabling meaningful discussions with the Government on this important constitutional matter. I beg to test the opinion of the House.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Butler of Brockwell

Monday 18th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, the answer is the same to both parts of my noble friend’s question. On the position in February 1974, which has been raised in the debate, if the Conservative Prime Minister of the day believed that it was necessary for an election, it is beggaring belief to suggest that the Labour Party would not also have agreed to an election and that the 75 per cent majority for a dissolution would not have been achieved. This does not mean absolute job security for five years because, if a Government lose confidence, the Bill contains within it mechanisms which can lead to an election. This can also happen if there is an agreement—as I believe would have been the case in March 1979. The then Prime Minister, Mr James Callaghan, could have said that he had lost a vote of confidence and that the following day he would table a Motion for dissolution, which I am sure would have been overwhelmingly carried by more than the majority required under the Bill. To suggest that he would have had to go scrabbling around trying to find a means of living on until October would not have been the case. There are mechanisms in the Bill to deal with that kind of situation.

I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, sought to dismiss the suggestion that there could not be tensions between the two Chambers, although I do not think that he actually denied that that was a possibility. However, he did say that this House would not stand in the way of a newly elected Government who sought to establish a fixed-term Parliament. Part of the problem with the noble Lord’s answer, apart from suggesting that this House might simply rubber-stamp the Bill—heaven forbid—is that the amendment does not say that the resolution would be brought forward by a newly elected Government. It actually says that it would have to be brought forward at some time during the Parliament. Therefore it might be brought forward some years into the Parliament. At that point, who is to say that this House might not think that they were at it at the other end, bringing forward the resolution for partisan advantage? This House might take a different view about that in those circumstances. Therefore it does change the balance.

My noble friend Lord Forsyth asked whether this does not parallel the position in the Parliament Act when Parliament was extending the lifetime of a Parliament. The point is that the exception in Section 2 of the 1911 Act is to,

“a Bill containing any provision to extend the maximum duration of Parliament beyond five years”.

There is a crucial difference between a Bill that extends a Parliament beyond five years and a resolution as to whether there should be a fixed-term Parliament. In that respect, it is not proper that this House should be given a veto in these circumstances.

I have already indicated that this course can be revived in each succeeding Parliament. It is not just a case of seeing how the Parliament from 2010 to 2015 would go. It may not happen under the amendment here—there may not be a fixed-term from 2015 to whenever—but it could be revived in the following Parliament. It is another unsettling uncertainty about this Bill that it can switch on and off fundamentally important constitutional proceedings.

There has been considerable debate on this Bill. As I indicated, it was introduced a year ago this week. It had its Second Reading in another place in September last year, extra time was made available in Committee, and Report and Third Reading in the other place took place in January. In your Lordships’ House, the Bill was introduced in January, Second Reading took place in March, the Committee sat on three days in March, Report was heard on two days in May and Third Reading also took place in May. It has been very fully debated. I note that the noble Baroness, the chair of the Constitution Committee, referred to the committee’s report on the process of constitutional change, which I believe was published overnight. One of the conclusions was as follows:

“We stress the importance of proper parliamentary scrutiny of all bills”—

and this Bill has been subject to considerable parliamentary scrutiny for a Bill of only seven clauses and one schedule—

“but we do not recommend that any new parliamentary procedures such as super-majorities should apply to significant constitutional bills”.

I cannot think of any more noted significant new parliamentary procedure than the one that is promoted by this amendment. If the Constitution Committee is sceptical about using new parliamentary procedures with regard to even very sensitive and important constitutional Bills, this is one about which we certainly should be very sceptical. I do not believe the view of the noble Lord, Lord Butler, that we are doing a service to the constitution by saying that we do not have to go to the length of repealing. Repealing is what we do if we do not like legislation that was passed by previous Parliaments. If we depart from that principle on a matter of constitutional importance, I believe we should only do so with very great caution. I would urge your Lordships not to insist on the amendment because I do not believe that the case has been made for such a serious constitutional departure.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

My Lords, I agree that this has been a very good debate. I do not need to go over the arguments again except perhaps to assure the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, that, like Mark Twain’s death, reports of the advantage to a Prime Minister of being able to decide when to call an election in the last year are greatly exaggerated. Certainly such reports did not prevent the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, from packing her bags on the morning of a general election in preparation for the election not going the way she expected.

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, who spoke about the report from your Lordships’ Select Committee on the Constitution. The Minister quoted one of its conclusions in his last remarks, but I would like to quote the two main conclusions. The Minister said that the Select Committee on the constitution in another place endorsed the proposal, but I shall quote what your Lordships’ committee said. If I may say so, your Lordships’ committee contains distinguished constitutional lawyers from all parties, who trump those who are members of the constitution committee in another place. They said:

“We take the view that the origins and contents of this Bill owe more to short-term considerations than to a mature assessment of enduring constitutional principles or sustained public demand”.

The committee continued by saying that,

“the balance of the evidence we heard does not convince most of us that a strong enough case has yet been made for overturning an established constitutional practice and moving to fixed-term Parliaments”.

There could hardly be two more damaging sentences.

Our national constitution is too important to be tinkered with as a bargaining chip in the negotiations of a temporary coalition. The British people have decisively prevented that from happening to the voting system for the House of Commons. They are not to be given a chance to express a view on this constitutional change, so it falls to your Lordships to insist that the Government and the House of Commons refrain from making a permanent change and give future Parliaments and Governments the opportunity to make these decisions for themselves. I would like to seek the opinion of the House.