Justice and Security Bill [HL]
(12 years, 1 month ago)
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Baroness Hamwee
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I have tabled Amendments 16, 17, 20 and 21 in this group, of which the substantive amendment is Amendment 21. Taken together, these four amendments would ensure that although the Secretary of State may, through a memorandum of understanding, alter the provisions concerning the ISC, a memorandum of understanding could not limit the functions of the ISC.
I hope that the Minister can give me an assurance that Clause 2 does not intend that the ISC’s functions could be limited in this way and that the Government are not seeking the opportunity to restrict its functions. If that is not wholly clear, perhaps the Government can look at it, but the Minister may well be able to persuade me that it is wholly clear. In any event, I am sure that he understands the short but important point that I am making. I beg to move.
Lord Campbell-Savours
I wonder if we might be told when we can expect to see this memorandum of understanding.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, we have tabled Amendment 22, which replicates the one tabled in Committee by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and is very similar to one tabled by my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours.
This amendment requires a memorandum of understanding that will further define the remit of the ISC and other elements of its functioning. We consider that this should be approved by Parliament. Throughout the debate we have been arguing for greater ties between the ISC and Parliament in order to underline its accountability to Parliament rather than the Executive. This is an important example of how we can assist in effecting such change.
If the ISC is ultimately accountable to Parliament, it seems right that Parliament should approve the MoU that governs the ISC’s relationship with the Government over and above that which is set out in the Bill. I am sure that we will replicate this debate next week in the Crime and Courts Bill about the framework document for the National Crime Agency. If something is outside the remit of what is in the legislation, it is very helpful to have sight of that and Parliament should have the opportunity to debate and approve it.
The Government have argued against the establishment of the ISC as a full Select Committee of Parliament. One of the arguments is that it is necessary to circumscribe in statute the rules under which the committee may operate. It seems justified and very reasonable that the MoU should be subject to greater scrutiny and formalisation by coming before the House and having formal parliamentary scrutiny and approval before it can be acted upon.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
My Lords, legislation is often a process of distillation and this evening the House has distilled itself down to this particularly rich mixture.
The Government intend to use the memorandum of understanding to make a substantial contribution to central government’s intelligence and security activities. It will be subject to ISC oversight. It is our intention that the activities should include certain activities within the Ministry of Defence, the Office for Security and Counter-Terrorism in the Home Office and the central government intelligence machinery in the Cabinet Office, including the Joint Intelligence Organisation. The scope of the memorandum, therefore, is wider than the three core agencies.
As my noble friend Lord Henley said in response to an amendment from the Opposition on this same subject in Committee, it is right that the memorandum of understanding should spell out the precise remit of the ISC in relation to bodies other than the agencies, because the memorandum of understanding can make provision at a level of detail which is not appropriate in primary legislation. This is particularly important because parts of government departments engaged in intelligence and security activities may be engaged in other activities which would not properly fall within the remit of the ISC.
The House will know that things change over time—departments reorganise. Functions done in one department one year may be done in another the following year. The intelligence world is no different from any other part of government. A memorandum of understanding is flexible. It can be changed much more easily than primary legislation. It will enable the intention of the Government to be realised now and in the future.
The effect of the amendment spoken to by my noble friend Lady Hamwee would be that, instead of the ISC’s widened remit beyond the three agencies being defined precisely in a memorandum of understanding, it would be defined in primary legislation, which is not in the interests of a good definition of the ISC’s role and is less flexible as I have said.
The Government’s intention is that the memorandum of understanding will enable the ISC to oversee certain activities; for example, within the Ministry of Defence as I have described. A memorandum of understanding is the best place to make provision at this level of detail.
The effect of Amendment 22, as proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, would be that a memorandum of understanding agreed between the Prime Minister and the ISC for the purposes of Clause 2 would need to be approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament before it could take effect. The memorandum of understanding is an important document. It will define the activities of government in relation to intelligence or security matters, other than the activities of the agencies, which the ISC may oversee. It will also specify additional principles and provisions, other than the criteria specified in the Bill, with which the ISC’s consideration of operational matters must be consistent. It will also specify the arrangements by which the agencies and other government departments make information available to the ISC.
The Bill also provides that the memorandum of understanding may include other provisions about the ISC or its functions. It must be agreed between the Prime Minister and the ISC and can be altered or replaced at any time by agreement. It is therefore different from a parliamentary document.
While the ISC is dissolved on Dissolution of Parliament, the memorandum of understanding will continue in place during a succession of government until a new memorandum of understanding is agreed with the Prime Minister.
As is usual with a memorandum of understanding, there is no parliamentary approval procedure. While the memorandum of understanding will be an unclassified document which is published and laid before Parliament, its precise terms are very likely to be shaped by matters which are sensitive in terms of national security and cannot therefore be made public. However, there is no restriction on the document laid before Parliament being debated in Parliament, and, indeed, one might expect on occasions for it to be so debated. Of course, the terms of the memorandum of understanding must be agreed with the ISC itself: a committee composed of parliamentarians that, as a result of the changes that we have been talking about, will be a committee of Parliament appointed by and accountable to Parliament. Requiring these parliamentarians to seek the approval of their parliamentary colleagues would be quite a restriction on the independence of that body.
Lord Campbell-Savours
First, on this preliminary document, which will not be the final document, will there be anything more in front of the Commons when they consider this in Committee than what is provided to us before Third Reading? Secondly, why should not preliminary drafting work, which I presume is going on now, be made available to the House—or certainly to the Commons—at an earlier stage?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I think I can reassure the noble Lord that I am doing my best to make sure that this House is informed before Third Reading of the nature of the document and the context in which it is being presented. I hope that the same document would indeed be available to the House of Commons. Until the Bill is enacted, the document cannot of course be laid before the House other than in a framework format. I hope that I have reassured the noble Lord that he and his colleagues in another place will have the information on which to see how this aspect of the Bill—the memorandum of understanding—is designed to bring flexibility into the procedures of the ISC.
Indeed, we wish to ensure that the memorandum of understanding is not used to restrict in any way the ISC’s remit or its functions as set out in the Bill. As we explained in our memorandum to the Delegated Powers Committee—another memorandum—the purpose of this clause is to enable provisions to be included in the memorandum of understanding to ensure that the ISC’s oversight of operational matters does not: interfere with the statutory accountability of the intelligence services to their Ministers; overlap with the roles of other independent oversight bodies, such as the Intelligence Services Commissioner; or lessen the effectiveness of the intelligence services and other intelligence and security bodies, or place any undue resource burden upon them. We believe that a clear understanding between the Government and the ISC as to how the ISC can most effectively oversee operational matters without compromising these imperatives is best achieved in a flexible instrument agreed between them. These amendments would, I fear, seem to preclude that. On that basis, I hope that the noble Baroness will see fit to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I got the assurance that I wanted almost at the end there, in the response to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. I was certainly not seeking to reduce the oversight of the parts of Her Majesty’s Government that relate to intelligence and security matters and which are beyond the three agencies. Quite the contrary; I want to make it clear that I do not think my amendments would have done that.
Having heard the Minister tell the House that it is intended to protect the scope of the work of the ISC and, like others, looking forward to seeing some form of document within the next few days because I think Third Reading is next week, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
Lord Butler of Brockwell
My Lords, this amendment is in my name and that of the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian. I shall couple with it Amendment 23. I am grateful to the Opposition, who have given their support to these amendments. They relate to circumstances in which the ISC may consider operational matters. At the moment, these are defined in Clause 2(3), which states:
“The ISC may … consider any particular operational matter but only so far as the ISC and the Prime Minister are satisfied that
(a) the matter—
(i) is not part of any ongoing intelligence or security operation, and
(ii) is of significant national interest, and
(b) the consideration of the matter is consistent with any principles set out in, or other provision made by, a memorandum of understanding”.
The problem is that that is too restrictive, but I want to make clear at the outset that the ISC does not aspire to consider current operational matters unless the Government have some particular reason for asking it to.
The reason why the wording is too restrictive is that at present there are three tests that have to be passed by an operational matter for the ISC to continue to consider it. The first is that it,
“is not part of any ongoing intelligence or security operation”.
The second is that it,
“is of significant national interest”.
The third test is that,
“the consideration of the matter is consistent with any principles set out in, or other provision made by, a memorandum of understanding”.
However, the preface to that is that the ISC and the Prime Minister must be satisfied that those conditions are met. That would curtail the present operations of the ISC considerably.
I shall cite one example. When the SIS operation in Libya went so badly wrong and it got into the newspapers, the first thing that happened, quite rightly, was that the chief of SIS wrote a letter to the committee to explain what had gone wrong. If the words of this provision were taken literally, he could have done that only if he had first cleared his lines with the Prime Minister. I could repeat lots of examples of matters where something appears in the press and the heads of the intelligence agencies then report to the ISC. However, the provision says that before any operational matter can be considered, the Prime Minister has to be satisfied that the three tests are passed. My first amendment would omit the words,
“the ISC and the Prime Minister are satisfied that”,
so that the provision would read, “The ISC may consider any particular operational matter but only so far as” the three tests were passed. In other words, it would remove the hurdle of satisfying the Prime Minister, which certainly does not apply at the moment. To have to satisfy the Prime Minister in each case would add a new and cumbersome bureaucratic procedure, which I doubt very much that the Prime Minister would welcome, let alone the ISC.
Doing that alone, however, is not sufficient, and that is where Amendment 23 comes in. That amendment says that the three tests would have to be passed before the ISC could consider an operational matter, and one of those tests would be that it was not part of any ongoing intelligence or security operation.
As I said, the ISC has no aspiration to consider an ongoing operation, unless the Government ask it to. It normally looks at operations retrospectively, but there are circumstances in which it suits the Government to ask the ISC to look at an ongoing operation, so Amendment 23, which my noble friend and I have tabled, states:
“The ISC may, notwithstanding subsection (3), consider any particular operational matter if the relevant Minister of the Crown agrees to consideration of the matter or it is consistent with the memorandum of understanding”.
An example of where this was necessary was cited by the noble Lord, Lord King. When he was chairman of the committee, it was asked by the Home Secretary of the day to consider the Mitrokhin case. That was a circumstance in which it suited the Government to ask the ISC to consider that operational matter. It would be very quixotic if the ISC had to say to the Government, “Sorry, you may have asked us to look at this matter because it would help you, but I am afraid we’re not allowed to because there is an absolute ban on it in the Bill”.
The purpose of these two amendments is to give more flexibility to the Government about the circumstances in which the ISC may look at an operational matter. It is not the ISC’s wish, in normal circumstances, unless the Government want it to, to look at matters retrospectively. The purpose of this amendment is to increase the flexibility which has been removed by the current drafting of the Bill. I beg to move.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
As noble Lords will see from the Marshalled List, we have added our names to Amendments 18 and 23, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler, noted, and we have also tabled Amendment 24 in this group.
The noble Lord, Lord Butler, has proved a worthy proponent of his Amendment 18, which would return the procedure for determining whether a matter should be considered by the committee back to the status quo by removing the requirement for the committee to seek the approval of the Prime Minister before making any such decision. It seems absolutely clear that the committee is bound in statute to abide by the remit set out in Clause 2 and it should not have to seek the approval of the Prime Minister to determine that it had done so. I agree with the members of the ISC and the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, who have argued that not only is this overly bureaucratic but it is a step backwards from the current position where the committee itself determines, on the basis of given criteria, whether a matter falls within its remit.
Amendment 23, to which we added our name, and Amendment 19, which was tabled by my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, address the same point, but in a slightly different way. The Bill reflects the status quo by incorporating operational matters, which the committee has been de facto undertaking for some time, into the formal remit of the ISC. However, it seems overly prescriptive for the Bill expressly to prohibit the committee from reviewing ongoing operational matters. All Members of your Lordships’ House fully accept that there are security issues to do with reviewing operations that are current and may risk compromising individuals involved. However, there may be rare cases where an operation carries on for a long time and, despite the risk being minimal, it is still considered current by the standards of the Bill. It seems much more reasonable to make a general stipulation against the review of ongoing operations but to allow the committee to review such matters in special circumstances if it has the express consent of the relevant Minister.
Opposition Amendment 24 is a repeat of that tabled by my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours in Committee. It would require the ISC to consider a request by a Select Committee to review a certain matter related to the ISC’s remit as well as any request to provide the Select Committee with information. It should be clarified that under no circumstances would the amendment require the ISC to act on any such request from a Select Committee, for instance, to disclose sensitive information or that simply would prove to be unmanageable for the committee’s workload. It would be a request. However, fostering greater communication and collaboration of Select Committees in Parliament could be only a positive development for the ISC.
Lord Campbell-Savours
When I originally read this wording in the Bill prior to the Committee stage, alarm bells immediately rang. When I saw the reference to ongoing operations, I tabled the original amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, in his contribution, really set out the case very much in the way that I would wish to argue it and I do not wish to repeat what he said.
However, he referred to one operation, which perhaps illustrates where the problem might arise. I refer to the issue of what happened in Libya. I did not know the detail of what happened there but I presume, from what the noble Lord said, that it was reported to a committee. I should have thought that that is a typical example of something which fell under the description of these matters given by the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, in Committee when she referred to operations being—if I recall correctly—finite and coded. Am I right in saying finite and coded?
Lord Campbell-Savours
I should have thought that that operation in Libya was a typical example of something that was finite and coded but which, as we know, was referred to the committee prior to the operation being completed. One wonders whether that operation would have fallen foul of what is in the Bill as it stands. I have no doubt that the Minister has in his brief, in very large red letters, “resist at all costs”—perhaps more than many of the other amendments that we have considered today. I would imagine that the services are particularly worried about this area. However, I would say to them that they must go away and reconsider this issue.
This is classic House of Commons debating material. I should have thought that the House of Commons will latch on to this wording and really drive it in Committee very hard. The Government should get a better line in dealing with these matters than we have heard hitherto.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Butler and Lord Campbell-Savours, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for introducing these amendments, three of which concern the ISC’s ability to oversee operational matters and the fourth concerns the relationship between the ISC and Select Committees. It is worth reminding ourselves that one of the purposes of the Bill is to extend the ISC’s statutory remit. It makes clear its ability to oversee the operational work of the security and intelligence agencies and of other parts of the Government’s intelligence machinery.
With this formalisation, we certainly expect that the ISC will provide such an oversight on a more regular basis. The provisions of the Bill allow the ISC to consider,
“any particular operational matter but”—
as the noble Lord, Lord Butler, quite properly indicated by quoting from the Bill—
“only so far as the ISC and the Prime Minister are satisfied that … the matter … is not part of any ongoing intelligence or security operation, and … is of significant national interest”.
The starting point is that the ISC’s oversight in this area ought to be retrospective and, so as not to cut across the role of Ministers, should not involve, for instance, prior knowledge of approval of agency activity. It is important that when there is an ongoing operation, or indeed a future operation, the responsibility for national security lies with Ministers. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, made it clear that the ISC is not seeking to intervene in that and accepts that the primary and principal responsibility lies with Ministers.
The ISC’s consideration of an operational matter must also,
“be consistent with any principles set out in, or other provision made by, a memorandum of understanding”.
The first amendment would have the effect of leaving it solely to the judgment of the ISC to decide when the criteria for considering a particular operational matter are met. It is our intention that the memorandum of understanding will set out the factors that should be taken into account in assessing whether a particular operation is still ongoing or is of significant national interest. None the less, while fully accepting that the committee does not have ambition or aspiration to extend beyond what is said, I am sure that even reasonable people could come to a different view about whether those particular criteria are met or not in a particular instance.
I hope that noble Lords will agree that the judgment as to whether an operational matter meets the criteria is one that should properly be for both the ISC and the Government and not just for one or the other. It is important that the judgment is got right; I do not think that anyone is suggesting in any way whatever that there will be any deliberate attempt to intrude in circumstances where it has not previously been anticipated that the ISC should, but the last thing that anyone wants is for a different judgment to be struck that could lead to impeding the operational effectiveness of the intelligence agencies.
The noble Lord, Lord Butler, indicated what was perhaps at the crux of his concern. He mentioned the case of Libya. I understand that there may be a concern that the requirement that both the ISC and the Prime Minister should be satisfied that the criteria are met will slow down responses to more routine requests from the ISC for information about operational matters. The noble Lord used the word “cumbersome”. I assure your Lordships’ House that that is not the Government’s intention, nor do we believe that it will be the effect of the clause. However, I further assure your Lordships that we are looking very closely at this and it may well be that a memorandum of understanding to be agreed by the Government and the ISC is the right vehicle for agreeing a process that will allow the information that the noble Lord indicated to be provided to the committee, and in an appropriately prompt manner. Alternatively, it may be that there are other approaches that might make the position clearer, and I suspect that as this Bill progresses through Parliament we may return to it. But I indicate that it is a matter to which we will give further consideration. It may be that the memorandum of understanding is a better way to address it—and I hope that, on that basis, the noble Baroness will not press that amendment.
The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, said that he would wish to remove one of the key restrictions on the ISC’s new power to oversee agency operations—namely, the requirement that its oversight of operations should be retrospective. There is nothing in red in my briefing, but there is an indication that the amendment should be resisted. We have worked with the current committee to develop the new arrangements, and it is the committee’s view, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler, made clear in his speech to his amendment, that the committee agrees with the Government that it should not oversee ongoing operations.
There are clear lines of ministerial responsibility for authorising agency operations, and we believe that they could be undermined by the ISC having prior, even contemporaneous, knowledge of particular operations. Secondly, once a particular operation has commenced, it may well be that things move very quickly, and it is essential that the agencies can focus fully on the task on hand. It is better to bring the committee in and have retrospective oversight of a particular operation. Indeed, some operations will be so sensitive, with perhaps highly sensitive sources in play, that the details are kept within a very small, need-to-know circle, even within the agencies. The committee fully understands this; it is part and parcel of the work that it does, and which it recognises that the agencies do on our behalf. Once an operation has concluded, the ISC will then be well placed to carry out its work, which will no doubt include making strategic and policy recommendations, and giving views on any lessons learnt. The noble Lord’s concern expressed in Committee, which he has reflected this evening, on how operations might be defined, particularly if there is a long-running set of activities, was whether that could be defined by the Government as a single operation. I certainly understand where the noble Lord is coming from, but that is not an appropriate or proper interpretation of the clause. The nature of operations varies, and this is one of the reasons why we have provided in the Bill detailed consideration as to how the ISC’s operational oversight remit should operate and should be set out in a memorandum of understanding, which the Government will agree with the ISC.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Would it not be better simply to remove the whole section on ongoing operations and deal with the whole thing in the memorandum of understanding?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
No, my Lords. One of our purposes is to ensure that this is put on a statutory basis. That has not been the case hitherto and this is a step forward. I can reassure the noble Lord that it is not the Government’s intention that a long-running operation be outside the scope of the ISC’s oversight for its entire duration. As the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, explained in Committee, a long-running operation could, for instance, be broken down into discrete phases of operational activity, parts of which could be judged to be no longer ongoing and, on that basis, could be subject to the oversight of the Intelligence and Security Committee. I very much hope that on that basis the noble Lord will see fit not to press his amendment.
The third amendment in the group, Amendment 23, would allow the ISC to oversee an operational matter that does not meet the criteria in Clause 2(3) if the relevant Minister of the Crown agrees to the consideration of the matter. It is difficult to see the circumstances in which the provisions of that amendment would need to be used, although I listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Butler, said. His concern was that there may be a circumstance whereby both the Government and the committee agreed that it was proper that there should be an investigation, but that it would be statutorily barred from that. The concern is that that amendment is aimed at allowing both to agree on what the ISC could consider. I am sympathetic to the kind of situation that the noble Lord described. The Government are not convinced that there is a need for this amendment, but we appreciate the intention behind it, which is to introduce a degree of flexibility that might prove useful in the future. It is certainly a matter that we would want to keep under review as work continues on drafting the memorandum. We would be willing to look at that again because, as the noble Lord indicated, it would relate to an issue on which there was agreement between the Government and the committee. It is just a question of how we can get that right without opening up to some unintended consequences.
Finally, I turn to the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, which raises some important points relating to the relationship between the ISC and Select Committees. The first part of that amendment would mean that Select Committees could ask the ISC to consider any request to review any particular issue related to national security. The second part would mean that a Select Committee could request that the ISC transfer information to it that the Select Committee,
“has stated it needs to carry out its function”.
The third part states:
“The terms of any consideration … are to be set out in a memorandum of understanding between the ISC and the Select Committee in question”.
Again, I recognise and appreciate the intentions underlying that amendment—an intention expressed by the noble Baroness to create a stronger link between the ISC and other committees. It certainly would be our intention that the new ISC should be closer to Parliament than its predecessor and that it should be a strong and effective committee. Equally, an important feature is that the ISC operates within a framework that enables its members safely to be party to highly sensitive material and that it can scrutinise matters that are secret and of which the rest of Parliament and the public, for good reason, do not have sight. Of course, at the moment it is open to Select Committees to write to the ISC requesting it to review a particular matter. There is nothing in the new arrangements that will stop that. I am sure that any such requests will be treated seriously by the committee.
However, I have a number of concerns about the idea of creating a formal statutory mechanism for making and considering the requests. First, I am concerned that the ISC could become overwhelmed with requests to report on particular matters. If it acceded to all requests, the programme of work could be overtaken with matters that are of interest to other committees, which would take the focus away from the core work of the ISC. Secondly, there is the question of what the ISC would be able to say in response, given the highly sensitive nature of the agency’s work. Members of the ISC are of course bound by the obligations of the Official Secrets Act. Thirdly, if the ISC regularly refuses to action requests from Select Committees, an inevitable tension could arise between the ISC and those committees. I fear that that might undermine the perceived effectiveness of the new ISC and its closeness to Parliament.
On the requesting of information to help Select Committees with their work, it will be clear that there will be real limitations on what the ISC could provide, given that much of the material that is provided to the ISC is, by necessity, extremely sensitive.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Have civil servants and the Minister considered the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, when he intervened in Committee on these matters? If they have not, why do they not meet him prior to Third Reading so that he can discuss with them his concerns arising from his experience as a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I recall having read, in the past 24 hours, a particular phrase from the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, to which the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, refers. I could take the Joint Committee on Human Rights in isolation but numerous other Select Committees could start making requests and the point I am trying to make is that if the ISC started to receive requests—indeed, it is possible at the moment and no doubt the committee considers them—but on a statutory basis, the concern would be that if the committee decided to respond positively to those requests, that would detract from its core function and purpose. Equally, the point I was making was that if it regularly refused action, that could lead to tension and detract from what we are trying to achieve by way of a greater closeness between the new committee and Parliament.
There is also the point that I was making about the information. By its very nature, some of that information will be extremely sensitive and will be classified as secret or top secret, according to the government system of protective markings, but the ISC, in its accommodation, staffing and procedures is set up to handle sensitive information. The ISC secretariat is vetted and its accommodation is secure. However, other committees are not set up to deal with such information, nor are they, we believe, in a proper position to assess the damage that disclosure could cause. If the ISC refuses to provide information, again, that could lead to tensions between committees.
The new ISC will need to consider how it works with Select Committees and with Parliament more broadly, but I am concerned that the provision suggested in this amendment might serve to skew or disrupt the ISC’s work programme and its reputation could be damaged by refusals to take forward work or pass on information. It is important that the ISC can direct its own work programme as far as possible and focus its efforts on issues that it, with its unique perspective, thinks are most important. I appreciate the intention behind the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, but I hope that they will reflect on the concerns that have been expressed and feel able to withdraw it.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s sympathetic reaction to Amendments 18 and 23. I will make two glosses on it. If I heard him right, he said that Amendment 18 would leave solely to the judgment of the ISC the test for considering an operational matter. I think he is thinking of the amendment that was moved in Committee because this amendment removes both the ISC and the Prime Minister. The Bill says:
“The ISC may … consider any particular operational matter but only so far”,
and it goes on to say that the matter,
“is not part of any ongoing intelligence”.
In other words, it means that it is a matter of fact and not something that the ISC could decide by itself.
The second point is that the Minister spoke about it as if these were matters where the committee asked for information from the agencies. However, as I think the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, will confirm, that is not usually the case. The circumstances are that the agencies themselves take the initiative in reporting to the committee. They give the information—I should think that that is the case nine times out of 10. It would be a great pity if that closeness that exists between the ISC and the agencies were to be inhibited by a requirement that the agencies clear their lines with the Prime Minister before they can report such a matter.
Baroness Manningham-Buller
I have not intervened in this debate because I have really just been listening with interest and support most of things that have been suggested. If there were a great story in the press—with some truth in it or not, about the operations of the service—I would certainly regard it as my duty to report to the ISC as soon as I reasonably could. It would be reassuring to believe that there is nothing in this drafting to prevent that. It is part of the ongoing confidence-building between the two that the ISC does not have to demand a report on something like that, but gets an early report of the facts from the agencies.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, who makes the point from her direct experience.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I hope that I gave reassurance that we recognise some of the issues that the noble Lord raised and that there is certainly a willingness to work through this. There is certainly no intention to retreat from the things which have normally been part and parcel of the ISC’s operations and deliberations up until now.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
I am very grateful to the Minister. On the basis on those assurances, I am very happy to withdraw Amendment 18.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
Lord Butler of Brockwell
My Lords, this may be the last amendment that we consider this evening. I can move it very briefly indeed because I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, for putting his name to it and therefore take it that we are pushing at an open door. This amendment would remove the words “a draft of” in relation to the report submitted to the Prime Minister. The committee does not and never has submitted a draft of the report; it submits its report. The Prime Minister can then ask for certain redactions to be made before it is published. However, it is by no means provisional. I take it from the fact that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, has put his name to this amendment that the Government will accept the removal of the words “a draft of”.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, since we are considering the last group of the evening, I confess to being envious of the noble Lord, Lord Butler. I have been in your Lordships’ House a relatively short time in comparison with him, but I have never had an amendment signed by both the Official Opposition and the Government. I congratulate him on that achievement.
There is not very much that I can say on this amendment that will not be said even better by others. However, I will say something regarding our Amendment 27. This is a revised version of an amendment which I tabled in Committee. This amendment would amend the grounds on which the Prime Minister may exclude matters from the annual reports. These are currently broadly defined in the Bill as that which the Prime Minister considers,
“would be prejudicial to the continued discharge of the functions of the Security Service”.
It goes on in that vein. We have argued that the primary reason for the Prime Minister to request the redaction of material contained within the annual report should be on the basis of national security, or that it risks a disclosure of sensitive information as defined in the Bill. Again, we have reservations that the reason given in Clause 3(4) is a bit of a catch-all provision which allows the Prime Minister to prohibit the publication of material perhaps considered too critical and which may damage the reputation of government agencies.
Of course, we acknowledge that there may be circumstances in which the Government will need to prevent the publication of material. That may not be only on the basis of national security or the sensitivity of information. It could also be where the information might threaten the UK’s economic interests. However, it would be better to make such additional criteria transparent and accountable, in order to prevent any misrepresentation of the role of the Intelligence and Security Committee. Amendment 27 allows the Prime Minister to prohibit publication on grounds in addition to national security and the sensitivity of information, along the lines defined in the Bill, but also requires that the scope of the information must be set out in the MoU with the Intelligence and Security Committee. It is a moderate and reasonable amendment and I hope that the Minister will give it his consideration.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, moved his amendment. It received support from around the House and I am pleased to say that the Government are in a position to accept it. In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and my noble friend Lord Lothian made the important point that the committee should be independent. I agree wholeheartedly. It will submit its report, not a draft of its report, to the Prime Minister, who may insist on redactions to the document but may not insist on any other changes. Again, I agree with this, so we are happy to accept the amendment.
Amendment 27 would have the effect of changing the grounds on which the Prime Minister might exclude any matter from a report to Parliament. It would add to the grounds for exclusion already described so that material might be excluded if it were of such a nature that it would be prejudicial to the continued discharge of the functions of the security service, the Secret Intelligence Service, the Government Communications Headquarters or any person carrying out activities that fall within Section 2(2); if it were sensitive information as defined in paragraph 4 of Schedule 1; or if it were information that, in the interests of national security, should not be disclosed. For convenience, I will refer to the three possible grounds for excluding material as the prejudice to functions ground, the sensitive information ground and the national security ground. The amendment would also require that matters considered to fall under the prejudice to functions ground—currently the only ground for excluding information from the Bill—should be set out in a memorandum of understanding.
The ISC must be able to report candidly to the Prime Minister on sensitive matters. Inevitably, it will not always be possible to publish the full content of its reports because of the nature of the material contained in them. I do not think that there is any dissent in the House from that position. It follows that there must be an ability to redact information before ISC reports are published or laid before Parliament. In Committee, and amendment was tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith—to which she referred—which would have made the criteria for excluding material from the published report just the grounds of sensitive information and national security. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, who is not in this place, explained that it was a probing amendment to try to find out why it was necessary to use the definition that was in the Bill rather than that in the amendment, which presented grounds similar to those in Schedule 1 for withholding information from the ISC. In the case of withholding material from the ISC, both grounds had to be fulfilled, whereas for these purposes material could be excluded from a report if either ground were fulfilled.
The sensitivity of information and national security grounds add nothing in substance. Material that falls within those grounds will necessarily also fall within the prejudice to functions grounds—unless in the case of sensitive information that is so historical or so widely known publicly that it is no longer sensitive, in which case there would be no real justification for excluding it from an ISC report to Parliament anyway.