Public Interest Immunity Certificates

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Monday 18th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

My Lords, is not the SFO—the Serious Fraud Office—a seriously failing office? What expectations does the noble and learned Lord have of it improving on its rather poor record thus far?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I think that that goes slightly wide of the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis. From Written Statements which have been made in the other place by the Attorney-General, and which I have placed in your Lordships’ House, I know a number of steps have been taken recently to improve the operation of the Serious Fraud Office. However, I will ensure that the comments made by the noble Lord are drawn to the attention of my right honourable and learned friend the Attorney General.

Civil Procedure (Amendment No. 5) Rules 2013

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Monday 29th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. As my noble friend Lord Phillips said just now, we are dealing with very sensitive issues, which, in the debates on the Bill during its passage, received considerable attention, not least because of the very fundamental issues of the administration of justice to which they give rise. I think my noble friend Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames was fair in saying that these rules that we now have are a fair and proper reflection of the architecture and detail of the statute that was passed by Parliament. The fact that it is in the form it is owes in many respects a lot to the work of your Lordships’ House, which the Government had no alternative but to pay heed to after the amendments were passed. The legislation that is in place is the better for that.

A number of important issues were raised. I will try to respond to them but I am conscious that, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said, I spoke without pausing to draw breath. He made a number of important points which I hope I will be able to capture. If I do not cover everything, I will certainly write to him and circulate it to all noble Lords who took part in the debate. I will also address the point he made about the various points in the Justice briefing, although he identified only one or two of those.

Not only was the statutory consultation followed with the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales and the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, but we sought also to allow an opportunity for your Lordships who had comments to feed those in, and for Members of the other place to do the same. I simply do not know whether the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission was engaged in this, or whether the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland consulted. Certainly, he was under no legal duty under the Act to do so. I can also say that the rules were being prepared as the Bill was going through and had to be very substantially changed in the light of the amendments that were passed. That was probably why they were not available at an earlier stage. Notwithstanding that, there was an opportunity for consultation, and, as my noble friend said, the rules we have are a proper reflection of what is in the Act.

Specifically, the Joint Committee on Human Rights and the Constitution Committee were not consulted. At this stage, when we are dealing with rules, the appropriate bodies of Parliament are the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and your Lordships’ Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Those are the appropriate committees to consider the court rules and, as I said, neither of them wished to draw any particular matter to the attention of the House.

In regard to the important point raised by the noble Lord in respect of Part 36 of the rules, Rule 36.14 provides for costs consequences for a claimant who fails to beat the defendant’s offer,

“unless it considers it unjust to do so”.

Therefore the court will, as set out in Rule 36.14(4), take into account all the circumstances of the case, including information available to the parties, and it is expected that the court will be very alert to any issues that might make it unjust to follow the normal rule where a CMP is involved.

It is also important to say that these rules are not set in stone. While the initial set of rules had to be submitted to Parliament for approval as a requirement of the Act in respect of Northern Ireland and England and Wales, any amendment to the rules will proceed by the normal course of amendment to Civil Procedure Rules. If, at a future date, there were to be a change in the rules as a result of representations, that might well be something that could be included in the annual report to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, referred.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked about further amendment; as I said, there is a procedure for that to happen. He asked what other forms of otherwise inadmissible evidence there might be. I recall that we went over this during some of our debates. He will find that the answer is in Section 6(4)(b), which says that,

“a party to the proceedings would be required to make such a disclosure were it not for one or more of the following”.

It may well be that if, for example, there had been,

“the possibility of a claim for public interest immunity in relation to the material”,

which could otherwise have excluded the material from closed material proceedings, that, of course, would not happen as a result of this. Therefore, that is another example, in addition to the obvious one he gave in terms of intercept material.

The noble Lord also asked about the database of closed judgments. The Government have sought to improve the database of closed judgments that is available to special advocates, and that work has been ongoing. I will come in a moment to the other important issues about judgments, which the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, mentioned. Of course, the judge’s discretion is there throughout. Whenever the disclosure has happened under Section 8, the judge is then required under Section 7 to look again to see whether it is still in the interests of the fair and effective administration of justice in these proceedings for the initial declaration for closed material proceedings to continue. Almost every step along the way, the interests of fair and effective administration of justice are brought into play.

The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, referred to the recent judgment of the Supreme Court in the Bank Mellat case. What he said in many respects reflected what was said many times during the debate, not least by me. It was there from the very first Green Paper that the intention of the Government is that closed material proceedings should be used in just a very small number of cases. At the time when the Bill came before your Lordships’ House, in the 12 months from October 2011 to October 2012, the figure of 20 was talked about. I do not have an up-to-date figure, but I understand that it has not changed much. Some cases may settle and new cases come in, but that is roughly the order of the cases. It is certainly our view that these cases should arise only where we believe it is strictly necessary. I do not believe that there is anything in the rules that is contrary to the principles identified by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, as President of the Supreme Court. I have no doubt, too, that in considering applications for closed material proceedings, these will be drawn to the attention of whichever judge is dealing with it. I am sure that the special advocates involved will be very astute and keen to do so.

However, the important point is that these will be matters for the judiciary, and the judiciary has indicated in that case at the highest level that the threshold is quite a high one. I have no doubt that in the months and years ahead there will be litigation on provisions of this legislation when there will be an opportunity for judges to indicate—with specific reference to this legislation—how it should be interpreted. However, as I indicated, I do not believe there is anything in the rules which run contrary to the principles that have been identified.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, asked me about what might be in the review as opposed to just numbers. I will give him an indication. For example, if there were a change to the rules of the court—which would not come before your Lordships, it would come before Parliament—that might be reported. In terms of development there would be an indication from the Secretary of State as to how he sees this law working out in practice. Maybe not in the first year, but after one or two years when there is some experience of how it works. I certainly would not see anything wrong in having a bit of a narrative, which can perhaps be expanded, as is possible consistent with the information and national security. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, also asked me whether the Attorney-General was consulted with regard to the Bank Mellat case. I simply do not know and cannot remember being told. He and I know that there is some delicacy as to what you say the Law Officers have been asked; but his comments about the involvement of the Law Officer comes from a distinguished former Attorney-General, and therefore I will certainly ensure that his comments on this are drawn not only to the attention of my right honourable friend the Attorney-General but generally to those who are going to be involved in these cases.

The further point, which the noble Lord, Lord Bew, made, was with regard to special advocates. I have no detailed knowledge of this, but I have no reason to think that the vetting is any less now. Of course, special advocates in Northern Ireland are appointed by the Advocate-General for Northern Ireland, who is of course one and the same person as the Attorney-General for England and Wales, a position which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, has previously held. Therefore, I think he can be assured that the scrutiny that is applied is done to the highest level. I hope that he has that reassurance.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, raised a number of points, and I hope that I have covered most of those raised in this debate. I believe that what we have here are rules that fairly and faithfully reflect the diligence of both Houses of Parliament in putting together a piece of legislation which we all recognise is hugely sensitive. In those circumstances, I commend them to the House.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord and I look forward to hearing further from him on some of the outstanding matters. He may well be right about Part 36 offers—well, of course, he must be right—and that the possible problem that might have existed in relation to costs of a Part 36 application is covered by Rule 36.14, as he says. But of course, that does not leave the party in any better position to assess whether to accept a Part 36 offer. There may not be a cost implication, but he is not in any position to assess the strength or otherwise of a Part 36 offer, which rather distinguishes it from the general case.

I am very grateful to noble Lords who have contributed to the debate, especially to the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Bew, to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, and to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, who broadly expressed support for the Motion. The noble Lord, Lord Marks, affects not to understand the reason or terms of the amendment. It is really fairly straightforward, I would have thought. The thrust of the argument that I sought to make, in which I was in various ways supported, is that we are seeing the transposition of a set of rules applicable to immigration cases under SIAC to ordinary civil procedure, as I said in opening the debate. That is the thrust of the first part of the amendment.

The second part of the amendment refers to the points made by the special advocates, to which the noble Lord, Lord Marks, chose not to direct his mind at all. I cited a couple of their concerns, but there were others—and I shall quote them, as we are not holding up a debate on the Care Bill by so doing. For example, among the points that they make, they talked about the,

“inability effectively to challenge non-disclosure … The lack of any practical ability to call evidence … The lack of any formal rules of evidence, so allowing second or third hand hearsay to be admitted, or even more remote evidence; frequently with the primary source unattributed and unidentifiable, and invariably unavailable for their evidence to be tested, even in closed proceedings … A systemic problem with prejudicially late disclosure by the Government … the Government's approach of refusing to make such disclosure as is recognised would require to be given until being put to its election, and the practice of iterative disclosure … The increasing practice of serving redacted closed documents on the Special Advocates, and resisting requests by the SAs for production of documents to them … on the basis of the Government’s unilateral view of relevance”.

These were all matters that were raised, and none of them appears to have been dealt with—

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Tuesday 26th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I support the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, and I am prepared to say at this stage that I will not be pressing my own amendment, which is on similar terms at least to the last amendment that the noble Lord has moved.

The noble Lord, Lord Butler, has adumbrated a case in which it would seem almost that the doctrine that no Parliament can bind its successor is somehow to be disregarded. Of course, it would be open to any subsequent Parliament to amend this law in any event. Any nation dealing with us will be aware of that. There is not, therefore, a great deal of force in what the noble Lord has been proposing as a justification for supporting the Government’s position on this matter.

The question arises: what is the point of a review? If a review is to take place—and the Government have given welcome acceptance to that concept—where does it lead? Apparently it would lead nowhere. The whole purpose of the review in these circumstances would be vitiated. There needs to be a review, given the nature of the change in our proceedings for us to establish a principle that there should be a renewal, and certainly on that basis I am prepared to support the noble Lord’s amendments.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, this has been a relatively short debate, but nevertheless important points have been made by my noble friend Lord Marks and the noble Lords, Lord Butler and Lord Beecham.

The first point I wish to make with regard to the first amendment in the name of my noble friend is, as I indicated in my opening remarks, that a number of public appointments, not least the appointment of Sir David Anderson, have been made by the Secretary of State without the consultation that my noble friend is suggesting in his amendment. I know that it is furthest from my noble friend’s mind to suggest this, but I am sure we would not want a situation where perhaps the appointment of some independent reviewers was questioned because they had not had the same statutory consultation requirements as have been proposed here.

I do not think anyone can deny that the role that Mr David Anderson plays is a very sensitive one. The independent reviewer of terrorism legislation reviews quite significantly the actions of the Executive. It is in the interests, too, of the Secretary of State that the person appointed as the reviewer is credible. I do not think that the recent appointment by the Home Secretary of the Biometrics Commissioner—or indeed of Mr Anderson—has given rise to any concerns. I would caution against fixing a problem that does not exist, because you might inadvertently create another problem by perhaps casting some doubt on the independence of those who have been appointed under the present regime. The Secretary of State should have the discretion, in a highly sensitive national security context, to ensure the appointment of an individual who does not pose any risk. I am sure that would be agreed across the House.

I listened to what my noble friend said and, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler, pointed out, he indicated that he was perhaps shifting—that is not a criticism at all—on the position of the renewal, given the deemed Section 6 proceedings as far as Norwich Pharmacal is concerned. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, makes an important point with regard to the confidence in which other countries share information with us. The fact that there would be regular potential for renewals puts it in a different category from that raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and it could raise a problem. In one of our earliest debates, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, indicated from a visit to America that when we discussed information perhaps being withheld, it was not fanciful; it was something that he actually encountered in his role as a member of the ISC.

I simply say to my noble friend and to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who ask what is the point of a review if nothing could happen, that the answer lies in what the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, himself said. No one is suggesting that this Parliament is binding its successors by this. I remind the House that it is not just the actions of the Executive and the Secretary of State; it is the whole system that we are setting up, which involves the courts. If a review proved that closed material proceedings were not working, manifest injustice was following on from them and they were not actually doing what they were set up to do, of course it would be possible for a future Parliament, through primary legislation, to repeal the legislation if that system is not working. Indeed, it may not go as far as repeal. It may be that a review would point out particular things that perhaps needed amendment, falling far short of a repeal. So a review could have a proper purpose that does not necessarily require a renewal order to follow on from it. In these circumstances, I invite the House to support and approve the amendments that have been brought from another place and I invite my noble friend not to move his amendment.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I apologise for my rush to the Dispatch Box. Have the Government reached any conclusions about the amendments passed by your Lordships’ House last week in respect of which the Deputy Prime Minister and the noble and learned Lord expressed a good deal of sympathy? Is that sympathy now to be translated into an acceptance of the amendments passed—or, indeed, in the form of fresh amendments to be moved by the Government in the House of Commons; and, if so, on what lines will they be?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I think that I indicated last week that the Government want to give very careful consideration to amendments that were passed by considerable majorities in your Lordships’ House on Report. The Government will address them, give them serious consideration and no doubt make their position plain in the other place, bearing in mind that the amendments were based on the recommendations of the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. It is certainly the Government’s intention to respond to that report in a timely way.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Wednesday 21st November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I begin by paying tribute to my noble friend Lord Dubs, who has spent a lifetime in the indefatigable support of human and civil rights. I certainly listened very carefully to what he said today.

I confess to some disappointment that during this debate we have heard little evidence of the Deputy Prime Minister’s references to sympathy for the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights and still less of the amendments that he said the Government would sympathetically consider. I do not know at what stage, if at all, this House will have an opportunity of considering such amendments. We have Third Reading next week, and there is no indication from the Minister that that would be an occasion when such amendments might come forward.

However, I would welcome the recognition of reality on the part of the Government Benches on three of the amendments that were moved earlier this evening. If those amendments had not been carried, we on the Opposition Benches would have voted for the amendment moved by my noble friend and supported by a number of your Lordships tonight, but we conclude that it would be better to send to the House of Commons the considered views and the amendments passed by very large majorities in this House than to send the Bill without those amendments, and simply leaving it that the provisions that caused most of us considerable anxiety were deleted from the Bill. In my judgment, and that of many of us in this House, that would leave us in possibly the worst of all possible worlds.

In terms of the practical politics of the situation, we might conceivably end up with a worse Bill returning to us than the one that, if this amendment is rejected, would be leaving us. For that reason, I am inviting my colleagues on these Benches not to support the amendment, but equally not to vote with the Government against it. My recommendation to my colleagues is that we should not vote on this amendment but should abstain. We look forward to the amendments that the Deputy Prime Minister spoke of yesterday which, presumably, would go further than those which this House approved with such substantial majorities this afternoon and this evening.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

My Lords, this has clearly been an important debate with passions expressed on both sides of the argument. Following the votes that we have already had —on amendments which my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister was talking about; the House has had an opportunity to consider the amendments emanating from the JCHR report—the Bill looks very different from that which arrived on Report. The CMP process has now altered with the wishes already expressed by this House. I therefore urge noble Lords not to remove these clauses altogether after such time has been taken to scrutinise and amend them. My noble friend Lord Lester summed it up very well: there is no point in spending a long time before the Dinner Break putting these safeguards, as he described them, into the Bill, only to simply take them all out after the Dinner Break.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for moving the amendment, which I say at the outset we are not in a position to accept. However, let me give an indication as to why sunset clauses are not necessarily appropriate here. Apart from anything else, I am trying to get my head around the idea of a sunset clause for litigation which could go over a period of time and it is difficult to think that you might have to sunset something. A case might start under a particular form of procedure and, if the sunset clause was effective, that procedure could be reverted in midstream.

There are also other considerations because this goes beyond what is proposed for the closed material proceedings we have been discussing. In relation to the case of Norwich Pharmacal, one of the primary concerns we are seeking to address is how we provide reassurance to those who give us important intelligence information so that we can protect information shared with us in confidence. A time-limited protection would undermine any reassurance we were able to give.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, the Minister should recognise that the amendment relates only to Clauses 6 to 11.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I apologise. Other amendments are grouped with it which I suspect have not been spoken to. None the less, the point I was making earlier applies to Clauses 6 to 11. If there was a procedure in train and the provisions were to sunset, I am not sure how that would rest.

However, I may be able to give some reassurance. The Constitution Committee did not recommend a sunset clause but said that the House may wish to consider the Bill being independently reviewed five years after it comes into force. Of course, Bills are subject to review normally some three to five years after Royal Assent, and it might be appropriate to do that should the Select Committee with responsibility decide that it wished to conduct a fuller post-legislative inquiry into the Act.

I recognise what the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has said and it is self-evident from the debates that we have had that this is a material change. However, it is right and proper that we should leave it to the Select Committee to decide the form that the independent post-legislative scrutiny should take. That is a proper way in which this matter might be addressed.

[Lord Beecham]

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. I welcome the noble and learned Lord’s indication that some kind of Select Committee procedure might be adopted for this purpose.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Tuesday 6th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I can certainly assure my noble friend that the Government give serious attention to representations from the Equality and Human Rights Commission and to this particular opinion, as I have indicated. There is a good response to the two key concerns that have been raised. It is the Secretary of State who applies for the CMP, but it is nevertheless the courts which decide whether to grant a declaration and, thereafter, which material will be heard in closed proceedings. With regard to criticism of the standard of gisting, we believe, as we said in Committee, that following the judgment in the Tariq case the Supreme Court found that the requirement of fairness can vary from case to case. The Bill states that closed material proceedings must comply with Article 6, when it applies, and we leave it to the courts to decide what Article 6 requires in any case. I am grateful for the constructive proposal of my noble friend. He will be aware that as well as considering seriously the opinion of the ECHRC, we will also consider the comments made in Committee, and I think we will receive before Report stage the report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights. I certainly look forward to giving that the consideration it deserves.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, given the dictum of the late Lord Scarman that public interest immunity is a matter of substantive public law, not private right, and that of the late Lord Bingham, that:

“It is an exclusionary rule, imposed on parties in certain circumstances, even where it is to their disadvantage”,

does the Minister agree with the opinion of leading counsel furnished to the Equalities and Human Rights Commission that,

“it is the duty of courts and tribunals to give effect to such immunity if applicable”—

on their own motion—

“even if the parties do not wish it”?

If so, what are the implications for the proposals in the Bill?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, again the issues regarding public interest immunity have been well aired and were referred to by my noble friend Lord Marks. I am sure that we will return to this on Report. The concern expressed during our earlier debates was that if PII is successfully asserted by the Secretary of State, that material in respect of which PII is successfully claimed has no part to play—it is not admitted to the proceedings. The Government’s concern is that there may well be situations where the Government have an answer to serious allegations made against them but, under the PII system alone, they are not able to bring that material before a judge. We believe that it is better if it is before a judge, subject of course to the proper safeguards in this Bill.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I take the point made by my noble friend Lady Williams. I said I would be willing to look at words like:

“for the avoidance of doubt this does not include coroner’s courts”.

I caveated it because I am always wary of parliamentary draftsmen finding 10 reasons why that will mean 20 different things. In that spirit, I hope she will be reassured that not only do we not intend to include inquests, but we do not believe that the wording here does include inquests. However, I am prepared to look at that to see whether there is a wording which will put that beyond doubt and reassure those who think that there is no belt-and-braces position as things stand.

I have sought to give reassurance on these important issues, and particularly it is important that Parliament scrutinises the powers available to Government by secondary legislation, perhaps a fortiori in circumstances such as this. I will reflect on what has been said in the course of this Committee’s discussion.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I refer first to the speech of my noble friend Lord Reid of Cardowan who had a long, distinguished political career crowned by his time as Home Secretary. He is perfectly right to remind us of the serious threats that might affect this country’s security and the change in the world in which we live. But as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, implied, what we are looking at in this part of the Bill is not an area which would open up this country to any particular threat of that kind. We are talking about closed material procedures in civil proceedings in which if there were to be a threat to security from the disclosure of documents, the Government can effectively pull the case. They do not have to disclose the documents. The cost of that will take another form but it is no cost to national security, so I hope the noble Lord will be comforted by that. He may have a more relevant point when we come to the next amendment.

My noble friend, on taking office as Home Secretary, famously described the Home Office as he then found it as “not fit for purpose”. The amendments that we are discussing this afternoon are intended to make, so far as possible, this part of the Bill fit for purpose because—as many of your Lordships have indicated—currently that is not the case.

That is clearly the view of the Delegated Powers Committee, although it does not go so far as to propose a particular amendment. I remind the Minister that the Committee refers to,

“the unconstrained nature and extent of the provision that might be made under them by this or any future government”,

under the proposals in the Bill as they now stand. That is a pretty wide description of the scope that the Delegated Powers Committee was considering and, as I said in moving the amendment, it then invited the House to consider whether there should be amendments to restrict that scope or include any safeguards. The noble and learned Lord was saying the answer to that should be no so far as your Lordships’ House is concerned.

Having listened to the closing remarks of this speech, I hope he will think further about that matter, because it does not seem to leave us in a very satisfactory position. The general view of those who have spoken would be to prefer primary legislation, however expedited, rather than secondary legislation—which effectively cannot be amended—to add to the scope of the civil proceedings referred to in the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, these amendments seek to confine the definition of “sensitive information” for the purposes of Norwich Pharmacal cases to intelligence effectively held by foreign intelligence services, rather than any intelligence service, including our own. So Amendment 74A would delete in Clause 13(3)(a) the reference to,

“held by an intelligence service”,

which would, of course, embrace our own intelligence services. Under Amendment 76A, Clause 13(3)(b) would cover, within the definition of “sensitive information”, information held on behalf of a foreign intelligence service. Amendment 76C would, at line 13, delete the paragraph so that the whole issue becomes that of a foreign intelligence service.

Amendment 80A, on the other hand, looks at the rather more significant issue of whether,

“disclosure is contrary to the public interest if it would cause damage (a) to the interests of national security”—

which is, of course, accepted—

“or (b) to the interests of the international relations of the United Kingdom”.

The wording of the amendment looks to have been truncated somewhat. The intention is the same as that of Amendment 80, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, who is not in her place, but it would leave out reference to,

“the interests of the international relations of the United Kingdom”.

Of course, security matters would remain covered. The question is: what is the import of the Government’s intention to allow removal from disclosure in the interests of international relations?

One can envisage, of course, that international relations might include questions of national security, but there might also be other matters, such as trade relations with other countries. Are we to be obliged to protect documentation which might relate to, or have an impact on, our economic relations with a foreign country? It might not be an ally; it might simply be a trading partner, a country to which we are exporting or seeking to export goods; a country, perhaps, with an undemocratic regime. Why should these matters not be withheld to protect interests of that kind, as opposed to matters of national security? It will be interesting to hear the noble and learned Lord’s justification for that rather broader definition.

I repeat that we accept that the interests of national security are perfectly legitimate and should be protected. I beg to move.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has sought to explore whether it is possible to define the Norwich Pharmacal jurisdiction in a narrower way than is available under the Bill as it stands. As was well aired in the earlier debate—and, indeed, on the second day of Committee and at Second Reading—because the aim of a Norwich Pharmacal case is to achieve release of information, it is not possible to agree a monetary settlement in order to prevent that information being released.

It is a different situation in damages claims. In this case, the court can still order the Government to release information if public interest immunity is not upheld. It is therefore important that Clause 13 provides the necessary protection for material whose could cause damage to national security or, in the part that these amendments relate to, to the effective functioning of international relations with key foreign partners.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, we are capable of simple arithmetic, and it may be that, in reality, the Government will get their way on the principle. We will keep an open mind through Report stage and listen carefully to what the Government say. At the end of that process, we may or may not accept the case. If it is the wish of this House—in the first instance—and of Parliament as a whole to proceed with closed material procedures, we might come to what one could call the last-resort position of looking at how best to limit any application of the new procedure and how to make the best of the situation, in the interests of justice and the traditions that this country has espoused for centuries. It would be making the best of what we currently consider is a very bad job. However, we are open to evidence. There is not a great deal of evidence at the moment, although there has been some to which Mr Anderson referred—the three cases which seem to have persuaded him that there is a need for such a procedure. However, as I reminded the House the other night, he also said that the Government’s proposals were disproportionate and suggested measures that would have some mitigating effect on the process, if it were to be implemented.

That is the position of the Opposition. We are not taking a premature stance on this. It would be interesting to know, for example, whether the special advocates have, as suggested, actually been shown the files of the independent adviser who is to be consulted, or whether the process is going to take place at all, and what the view of the special advocates is. Your Lordships will recall that they were very critical. Almost all of them signed up to criticism of the proposals as they stood. In evidence to the Select Committee, Mr McCullough said that he would welcome the opportunity, if it were given, to look at the cases that seemed to have persuaded Mr Anderson to accept the principle, given that, as he made clear, he continued to think there would be only a limited number of cases. At the very least, the amendment has allowed us to look at ways in which such cases might be restricted to a small number, against criteria that, although not statutory, might be developed while the Bill is making its way through Parliament.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Hodgson for bringing forward the amendment. It is clear from the contributions that it raises an important issue. I certainly recall that on publication of the Bill, the issue of whether there was a definition of national security was raised not just by a number of Members of your Lordships’ House but more widely. It is important to define the type of material that closed material procedures should be used for. I hope that I can set out why we think we have reached in the Bill the right definition of the type of material that would be considered within a CMP—material that if released would damage national security.

The Government carefully considered the responses to the public consultation on the Green Paper, including consideration of the scope of the material to be covered, before bringing forward this legislation. The Bill makes provision for closed material procedures to be used only in contexts where there would be damage to national security. Examples of sensitive material that might be relevant to a case that would give rise to a duty to claim public interest immunity, and which could also be heard in a CMP under this legislation, include, for example, information from a sensitive source whose life or safety could be put in danger if openly disclosed. I think that example was given by the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller. Other examples include information relating to current operations that would be compromised if it were to be made public; intelligence material shared with the United Kingdom by foreign intelligence agencies; or the content of telephone calls or e-mails intercepted by the intelligence agencies that would not be admissible in open civil proceedings. It is difficult—a number of noble Lords said this in their contributions—to be completely prescriptive about all the types of damage to national security that could justify closed material proceedings.

The amendment in the name of my noble friend introduces a definition. I would assert that the term “national security” is clear, tried and tested. My noble friend Lord Lothian said that it is clear “when you see it”. One noble Lord asked: “Who sees it?” In this case, the judges see it. The Secretary of State makes an application to the court, and the judge determines whether it satisfies the condition that there would be damage to national security.

It has been for judges to interpret this term appropriately and flexibly. The flexibility of the current approach allows the judge to consider the arguments of the Secretary of State on their merits. Of course, the procedure, even at the initial gateway stage, would also allow special advocates to make representations to the court.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, mentioned Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights. It is important to remember that in Clause 11(5)—

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[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, the Green Paper suggested that there might well be the category of the prevention of serious crime. That was considered by the Government. I indicated earlier in my remarks that the Bill deliberately omitted from the definition other aspects of the public interest from the CMP clauses, such as international relations and the prevention or detection of crime, although they do apply in other statutory CMPs. But the consideration of the representations received in response to the Green Paper was to make it solely matters that would be damaging to national security.

The policy of successive Governments and the practice of Parliament has not been to define the term “national security”. As a number of your Lordships accepted, it has been to retain the flexibility needed to ensure that the use of the term can adapt to changing circumstances —for example, changes to the threat environment and advances in technology. The nature of national security threats and risks is constantly evolving. That, in turn, requires the Government and the security and intelligence agencies to maintain their ability to evolve.

My noble friend Lord Lothian suggested that it would be better to leave this open and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, accepted that it was not always possible to be definitive. The current approach is based on the recognition that this is a flexible concept which evolves in the light of changing circumstances. As my noble friend Lord Hodgson said, we want to avoid a legal straitjacket. The risk of any attempt to be precise and exhaustive would be to constrain the ability of the security and intelligence agencies to adapt their operational approach and develop capabilities to meet new and unexpected changing threats.

I will conclude with a pertinent example. Neither weapons of mass destruction proliferation nor cyber attacks feature in what is fortunately a non-exhaustive list of threats to national security which the Security Service is specifically charged with countering in Section 1 of the Security Service Act 1989. But who could deny that, some 23 years later, these activities represent serious threats to the UK’s national security? The flexibility is there for the security services to be charged with responsibilities without there being an exhaustive list.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, accepted that there might not necessarily be a statutory definition and he raised a question about guidelines. I will certainly consider guidelines, but I am not entirely sure where they would fit into the guidance being given to the court, even with the help of the ISC in devising them. However, I know that the suggestion was made in a constructive manner and I will certainly think about it in a constructive way. I do not readily see how it will fit in, but I will certainly consider it. He may wish to elaborate on what he had in mind.

[Lord Beecham]

I particularly had in mind ruling out areas—the noble and learned Lord has already indicated some of them—that would not be deemed to fit within the definition that the Government seek to apply. It is an exclusive rather than an inclusive list that I think might be helpful,

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says. I have already tried in response to the debate to indicate some of the things that are excepted from the definition as we have it. With those considerations in mind, I invite my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for a clear explanation of something which, I am afraid, I approached with complete bewilderment. I simply did not know the point he was aiming at. I do now and I am persuaded by his argument. I hope that the noble and learned Lord will be sympathetic to the case he has made because it is convincing and consistent with the approach to the Intelligence and Security Committee. Given that precedent, I would have thought not that it would damage the interests of the security services, but rather that it would strengthen the role of the courts and uphold the principles that Members across the House seek to maintain in terms of the operation of the justice system. I hope that the noble and learned Lord will accede to his noble friend’s plea.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for bringing forward this amendment. He rightly points to two pieces of legislation which govern the security and intelligence agencies, the Security Service Act 1989 and the Intelligence Services Act 1994. As my noble friend has indicated, they place an obligation on each of the agency heads to prevent the disclosure of information obtained by the agencies except on certain limited grounds set out in those Acts. In particular, the disclosure of information is permissible where necessary in the proper discharge of the functions of the agencies. Information held by the security and intelligence agencies will include information and intelligence from human source reporting, and therefore is essential to the agencies’ operational effectiveness and the protection of national security.

As I understand it, the concern behind this amendment seems to be that these provisions would prevent the agencies complying with their disclosure obligations in civil proceedings. However, it is our view that the amendment is unnecessary. The agencies take their disclosure obligations very seriously. In England and Wales, if the claim is a civil damages claim, for example, Part 31 of the Civil Procedure Rules will generally apply. Standard disclosure requires parties to disclose the documents on which they rely—documents which undermine their or another party’s case and documents which support another party’s case. If the claim is for judicial review, all public authorities are subject to a duty of candour which requires the public authority, when presenting its evidence, to set out fully and fairly all matters that are relevant to the proceedings. Naturally, part of considering these disclosure obligations is the question of whether PII should be claimed or, if Parliament passes Part 2 of the Bill, whether the Secretary of State should apply for closed material proceedings. In a case where the agency is being sued for civil damages or someone is applying for judicial review, it is part and parcel of the proper discharge of an agency’s function to defend actions taken in the discharge of its functions. I therefore believe that the amendment is unnecessary.

My noble friend has made reference to paragraph 3(4) of Schedule 1 concerning the ISC provisions. This paragraph reflects a provision in the Intelligence Services Act 1994 which treats disclosure by the agencies to the ISC as necessary for the proper discharge of their functions. It may be asked, as my noble friend did, why this provision is needed there and not in the context of civil litigation. It is simply because it is right to make it clear, as existing legislation does, that disclosure to the ISC is permitted.

My noble friend may well be raising a case where it is a question of third-party disclosure. He mentioned a case of Evans v Ministry of Defence and, on the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I understood him to indicate that that argument did not win the day. It is a case that I wish to consider in the light of what my noble friend has said. If the effect of this amendment would be to treat the disclosure into any civil proceedings, regardless of the identity of the parties or the subject matter of the proceedings, as somehow part of the proper discharge of the agencies’ functions, that would conflict with the agencies’ need and ability to operate in secret. This is vital to maintaining the trust and confidence of those with whom they work; or, as was said in the previous debate by the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, information may come from a particular agent, and the secrecy of that is important. I am thinking in particular of proceedings that do not at all involve the agencies and where a request for disclosure is made. It is right that in these circumstances the courts consider whether disclosure would be necessary for the proper discharge of an agency’s functions before an order for disclosure is made.

I have indicated to my noble friend that I will look at the Evans case. Based on what he said, I am advised that it may be similar to and consistent with the arguments that the agencies made in the Omagh bombing case—namely, that Section 22A is a bar to third-party disclosure, and that it was for the courts to decide. I hope that he hears that the agencies take seriously the requirements of disclosure in civil proceedings under Part 31 of the Civil Procedure Rules. On that ground I urge that the amendment is unnecessary and ask my noble friend to withdraw it.

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[Lord Beecham]

It is a while since I appeared before any judge whether county court or circuit. I meant the equivalent position. The noble Lord is clearly aiming at that tier in the judicial system and it strikes me as a little excessive. Equally, the provision for majority verdicts and so on would be somewhat invidious. Regretfully, I cannot support my noble friend’s amendment and I dare say that the noble and learned Lord will join the majority of those who have spoken in saying that the amendment would not be acceptable.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, anticipated what the response would be. That said, it is only right to acknowledge the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and supported by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, with reference to his own experience. I certainly accept that in moving his amendment the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, does not necessarily accept that we should be in the field of closed material proceedings. He made that clear, but he indicated that, in his view, it was necessary to have safeguards of the type proposed in his amendment. The Government’s position is that there are safeguards and in future groups of amendments we will be able to discuss the pros and cons of other potential safeguards.

As has been indicated, the amendment would require a judge in a closed material proceeding to sit with a panel of four additional judicial commissioners. In introducing these procedures the Government consider that we are providing the judiciary with another tool to deal with cases involving national security material. In the Justice and Security Green Paper, the Government floated the idea of a separate national security court with national security cases being diverted to it and different procedures being adopted in it. However, we concluded that national security is an aspect of disputes which may arise in any field of law and therefore it is better to keep cases in the ordinary courts where they arise while providing appropriate procedures, rather than moving different types of cases into one court where their only unifying factor is national security.

We are concerned that this amendment would be similar to creating a specialist court because it establishes an entirely different finder of fact for cases in which CMPs may be used. It envisages that the panel would preside over both the open and closed parts of the proceedings and this would fundamentally change the procedures adopted in the civil courts for cases in which national security is engaged. The oddity of what is proposed here can be illustrated by considering a case where national security material is important, but none the less is a small part of the material in the case. It might possibly even be a single document. Let us say that the court made a declaration that a CMP may be used and accepted an application that the document should be heard in closed proceedings. We would then be faced with proceedings which to all other intents and purposes were indistinguishable from other civil proceedings being presided over by a panel. We do not think that is right. My noble friends Lord Lester and Lord Carlile, and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, made the point that single judges are well equipped to deal with this. My noble friend Lord Faulks made the point that subsection (3) very much changes the level and nature of the burden of proof and would materially change the nature of these proceedings. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, indicated that it would also lead to cost and delay. I am always wary of talking about cost when we are dealing with such sensitive matters, but that would undoubtedly be the case.

The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, should be congratulated for coming up with an imaginative way of addressing his undoubted concerns. However, the Government believe it is better to retain the current judicial system in the civil courts and provide the judiciary with this new mechanism of the closed material proceedings rather than fundamentally alter the way in which the United Kingdom deals with civil proceedings by creating a finder of fact in cases of this sort.

I believe that it was the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, who mentioned special advocates. They will provide the type of independent challenge that this amendment seeks to cover. I remind the Committee, as I am sure will happen on further occasions in our debates, of the case of M v Home Secretary in which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, granted an appeal on the basis of a rigorous cross-examination in the closed session. That in itself is testament to the work of special advocates in these situations. I hope that I and other noble Lords who have contributed have gone some way to encouraging the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, to withdraw his amendment, while recognising his motivation in putting it forward.

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[Lord Beecham]

I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord could deal with this matter by accepting a slight modification to the wording so that there “must” be an appointment of a special advocate unless the party declines to accept the appointment.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

That is a helpful suggestion. I am always wary of saying that, as it might cast doubt on what has been put in an earlier statute which is intended to do the same thing. An absolute requirement may lead to a special advocate being appointed in circumstances where it would be almost impossible for the person to function. I hope that the noble Lord is reassured that it is our intention that whenever an excluded person wants a special advocate, a special advocate will be appointed. I note what he says. Without wanting to cast doubt on what is in other statutes, we shall certainly have regard to what he says.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, there were three points. First, I understand my noble friend’s point about the availability of judgments that are closed to people who are not special advocates. That is a difficult problem that I cannot readily see a solution to, given that the very reason why they are closed judgments is because of the sensitive nature of the information in them the disclosure of which could be damaging to national security.

The second point is very much one of detail. Who would determine whether there was, in fact, no longer a national security consideration? Where would the responsibility lie? That is the very issue that I want to consider, because how that would be addressed does not readily present itself to me. I sought to indicate that there is an issue here. I am not pretending for a moment that there is an easy answer, but the issue is important to consider.

On the third point that my noble friend makes about consistency, the difficulty—perhaps it is a reality rather than a difficulty—is that every case will be dealt with on its own individual circumstances. What goes into an open judgment or a closed judgment may well be the result of representations, debate and argument before the judge by special advocates. In those circumstances, it is difficult to ensure that there is rigid consistency because that might inhibit more openness in circumstances where a special advocate makes a compelling case that particular material ought to be included in an open, rather than a closed, judgment. It may be the counsel of perfection, or of the impossible, to think that there would be consistency when we are dealing with circumstances that can differ considerably from case to case. I think it must be left to the argument presented by counsel on both sides—special advocates and counsel for the Government—to determine what a judge puts into open judgment and what is put into closed judgment.

I hope that with those words, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, will consider withdrawing the amendment.

[Lord Beecham]

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for agreeing to give consideration to that particular aspect. There are two issues here. One is public confidence in the system, for which some information about the process—I am not talking about detailed information about the closed material itself—needs to be in the public domain. The second issue is that this should be done in a systematic way, perhaps by the equivalent of the 30-year rule for Cabinet papers and the like.

I am not suggesting for a moment that we should set out to prescribe a given period at this point, but at some point the option of disclosing material ought to be built into the system. This should not necessarily be with a particular time frame in mind, but be a process that is available to the Government of the day to determine, perhaps in conjunction with the courts, what information might be released and when. That is something that we might look at further on Report, in addition to the point that the Minister has agreed to take back. However, in the circumstances I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Wednesday 11th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I have some sympathy with the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, that habeas corpus proceedings should fall within the civil proceedings provisions of the Bill. I am less persuaded by the argument to include any action against the police. It would probably seem wrong to exclude these specific actions from the procedures, not least in the light of the Crime and Courts Bill, with the creation of the National Crime Agency, the extension of powers to the border agency and the like, and the possible involvement of ordinary police forces under the auspices of the NCA in matters which could go to issues of terrorism or other aspects of national security.

The noble Lord may have a point about habeas corpus and it would be interesting to hear the Minister’s response to that, but I do not think that the Opposition could necessarily support the amendment as it stands. There is the problem that we will refer to later about definitions of national security and the like, which possibly offer a more fruitful way of narrowing the scope of the provisions of the Bill. Having said that, I entirely concur with my noble and learned friend’s view. Anything that I say on subsequent amendments or indeed in relation to this amendment is without prejudice to the stance that we take, but we are yet to be persuaded of the case for closed material procedures in the first instance. All the discussions that have taken place so far, and that we will continue to have in relation to this part of the Bill are subject to that distinct reservation. We are not, therefore, conceding the point when we look to see what ultimate fallback provisions might be desirable and necessary if it is the wish of your Lordships’ House on Report to go forward with the Bill in much the condition that we now find it. We will be looking to discuss amendments and we hope that the Government will respond positively to some of them but in relation to this amendment we will be commending the latter part to the Minister’s attention.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My noble friend’s amendment seeks to narrow further the contexts in which a CMP can be used. I hope I can demonstrate to your Lordships that the Bill is already very narrowly drafted and that the amendment could remove justice from those who are entitled to it. The Bill as drafted allows CMPs to be used only in relation to information damaging to the interests of national security, only in the High Court, Court of Appeal or Court of Session, and not in a criminal cause or matter.

The amendment would mean that CMPs could not be used in any action against the police or law enforcement agencies, or any action seeking a person’s release from detention. Where such cases involve information that cannot be disclosed for reasons of national security, this amendment would not allow judges to reach a judgment based on all the facts. Claims relating to national security should, surely, be capable of being heard, rather than material being excluded by way of public interest immunity, regardless of whether the defendant is the police or a government department. As was reflected in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, the police play a vital role in national security in, for example, counterterrorism investigations. There may be many civil cases which would involve the police—it would not necessarily be directed against a Secretary of State—and it would be unfortunate if they were to be excluded from the possible use of CMPs. Judges should be able to come to a judgment on the full facts in any case relating to national security.

The Bill is designed to increase justice for claimants and defendants in all civil cases where national security means that, otherwise, information could not be put into open court. This amendment would take that justice away from claimants who bring a national security case against the police or law enforcement agencies, or where, as my noble friend explained, the case is about a person’s release from detention. Cases about a person’s release from detention in the UK will generally be in the context of a criminal cause or matter where CMPs are not available, but should this not be the case, it is important that all of the material is before the court, if possible, rather than being excluded by PII.

My noble friend gave a quotation about habeas corpus going back to the reign of King Edward I. I hope that I do not strike too nationalistic a tone, but north of the border, Edward I is not seen as a fount of justice and liberty. That apart, my noble friend raises a serious point. It is our considered view that in the context of habeas corpus cases it is vital that the court is in possession of relevant material before making a decision to issue a writ. Without all of the relevant information, it may not be possible for the court to come to the right decision.

I know that noble Lords are concerned that the nature of the types of cases covered by this amendment creates a greater need for transparency, and that, indeed, in some circumstances, such as proceedings into potential violations of Article 5 of the European Convention on Human Rights, there is a requirement for transparency. The argument that public confidence requires fully open proceedings in such cases is an understandable one, but I believe that these concerns can be addressed through our current proposals. Nothing in this Bill is incompatible with the ECHR. My noble friend has raised a serious point about detention. I will reflect further on it, but our approach is that it is important, even in these cases, that all the material, if possible, is made available to the court before a decision is made, rather than some of being excluded through PII. I will reflect on what he has said, but our view is that we have struck the right balance. I hope that on that basis he will be able to withdraw his amendment.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, it is only a few weeks since the noble Lord, Lord McNally, described Lord Newton as a national treasure except when he voted against the Government. I intervened somewhat mischievously to say that that was what made him a national treasure. In fact, of course, he was a national treasure for a long time before that. I have good memories of working with him when he was a very approachable Minister and I was the leader of my local authority. I also had the pleasure of serving under him as a member of the Local Services Honours Committee, which he chaired with great care, always exhibiting great thoughtfulness and fairness. He was a man of great conviction and great courage, as he demonstrated fully in your Lordships' House for so many months. We will all miss him, as other noble Lords rightly said.

I turn to the amendments in this group and join the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in acknowledging that the Government have made significant improvements to the Bill and in congratulating the noble and learned Lord on doing that. I also congratulate the noble and learned Baroness on initiating these very welcome changes. I endorse what she said about further developments. Now, of course, the Government have the capacity to bring them about without primary legislation. The Opposition look forward to that in due course and certainly support the amendments in this group.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I start by associating myself with the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, about Lord Newton. I first encountered him in 1983 when I was a newly elected Member of Parliament and he was the Social Security Minister. I had a particular constituency issue and he could not have been more helpful or understanding. That was my experience of him as a Minister throughout my time in the other place.

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, outlined her wish list. I think that she understands why the Government are unable to accept at the moment that legal aid should be available for these prevention matters. We find it difficult to see how the orders covered would be used in practice for prevention of removals in situations of urgency for which a case for funding is made, rather than for securing return after removal. If a child was in the process of being abducted and the situation was an emergency, legal aid would be available for the purpose of securing their return. It is more difficult to see why legal aid should be available to fund applications that are more contingent in nature, where there is no imminent danger of abduction or associated emergency but the measure is being sought on a precautionary basis. Very often those cases will be the stuff of general private family law proceedings, and we see the risk of such orders being sought for the benefit of funding in what are general disputes over where a child is to live and with whom—which, as we made clear in other areas, we will not fund.

Having said that, I welcome the co-operation that there has been, and very much appreciate the comments made by the noble and learned Baroness about the officials who worked on this and productively engaged with her and with those who advised her. I hope that what we brought forward meets the concerns raised. I have no doubt that we will be reminded of the wish list when we have had a bit more experience of the Act in operation. Again, I thank all those, both inside and outside the House, who worked toward a constructive solution on this matter.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Wednesday 14th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I am grateful to my noble friend. Debate on his amendment might allow a better exploration of the important point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, that exchange was quite useful because it illustrated the argument against what the noble and learned Lord seeks to persuade us to agree to; namely, the proposition that these are matters for the Rules Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, has tabled a sensible amendment that covers the situation raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. However, under the Bill these will not be matters for Parliament. The scope of access to justice will not be in the Bill and will not be the subject of legislation. The matter will be in the hands of the Rules Committee. That is a delegation of responsibility too far in a very significant area of public policy. Therefore, I cannot accept the arguments of the noble and learned Lord.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, has tabled amendments that we will debate later. I say in advance that I have sympathy with some of them, including the one to which he referred. Perhaps he will forgive the obvious pun: we understand that there are not many doubting Thomases on the government Benches. He will also understand that we do not necessarily share that perspective and that a degree of scepticism is more naturally to be found on this side.

In respect of one or two other matters, the Heil v Rankin decision is based on a particular level of damages. It is not a binding provision, applicable across the piece, as is suggested in terms of the 10 per cent uplift. It seems to us, and not only to us, that it is imperative, given that we are now dealing with the matter of principle of access to justice via this particular method, that the legislation should encompass the range of issues that arise. It can do so in the form of a starting position and provide for additional regulations to be approved by Parliament later. That would have been an option. I would like to think it might still be an option but I am not getting much encouragement from the noble and learned Lord. I cannot accept that the Government’s position is satisfactory. I am grateful up to a point for an indication that one object of these amendments will take place—that is to say that change will be synchronised. I wish that the noble and learned Lord and I had not synchronised our stumbles today. But in terms of legislation, that is a welcome assurance. Nevertheless, there are significant points of principle here and in the circumstances I wish to test the opinion of the House.

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[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I thought the party of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, was a party of conscience and reform. Conscience appears to have taken a back seat. I have a good deal of sympathy with most of the amendments to which he has spoken and I shall briefly comment on them.

Although we would prefer that the success fee were not deducted at all from a successful claimant, the noble Lord’s proposal is clearly better than the Government’s proposal. So, to the extent that the Government might be disposed to listen to him on this, we would support that in lieu of what we regard as an even better position.

The other amendments to which the noble Lord spoke largely depend on matters being determined by rules of the court, which would appear to have a discretion to make the necessary changes, for example, under Amendments 142B, 142BA and 142BB, with the Lord Chancellor, in the case of Amendment 142B, identifying the proceedings but not necessarily requiring the change to be made.

I entirely share the noble Lord’s view about environmental claims, and a subsequent amendment in my name covers much the same territory. In Committee, I quoted at some length the legal opinions to which the noble Lord referred at that time and dealt with the point about the Aarhus amendment and the points made by his noble friend Lord Lester, which, I agree, misstate the position in respect of protective costs orders. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, is absolutely right to say, as I said on that occasion, that they do not offer a sufficient defence, as it were, to those in that position.

I similarly agree in relation to the civil liberties claims and, again, we have tabled an amendment in somewhat similar terms, with the exception that under the opposition amendments the Lord Chancellor would effectively take the decision which would change the nature of the position in relation to those claims. As that would have to be, as the noble Lord implied at one point, through secondary legislation or affirmative resolution, it is a more accountable way of dealing with matters than simply leaving it to the courts to determine.

In these circumstances I apprehend that the Government will not be disposed to accept these amendments. Perhaps the Minister will be willing to undertake further discussions with his noble friend, if not with anybody else. If not, as the matter clearly will not be put to the vote tonight, I can only record our unfortunate disagreement with the position in which we will end up because it will not be satisfactory. I do not accept that it is undesirable and wrong to look at particular instances which might fall outside the general rules. The Government have acknowledged to some degree that this should be the case in relation to recoverability under clinical negligence. If they can do that in respect of clinical negligence, then they can equally extend a similar principle elsewhere. Having said that, we await the noble and learned Lord’s response.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his amendments. It will come as no surprise to the House if I yet again echo what has been said on numerous occasions on Report: the architecture, as my noble friend Lord McNally referred to it, of this part of the Bill seeks to ensure that there is fundamental proportionality and fairness across the board in these claims, and that is why we have adopted the proposals of Lord Justice Jackson.

The cumulative effects of Amendments 132B, 132C, 132E, 133B, 133E, 139D, 140A, 141ZA, 141ZB and 142B would be, as my noble friend said, a refinement on what has been proposed. When the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, talks about my party and my noble friend’s party as being a party of conscience, it is because we feel that some of the fees that have been charged have been unconscionable under the existing scheme. That is why we wish to address the issue.

My noble friend wishes to introduce staged success fees. I am very grateful to him for his complex set of amendments; he has set out what the fees would be at different stages, on the multi-track approach. His proposals would introduce staged success fees in ATE insurance premiums, the cost of which would be split between the losing defendant and the successful claimant. Some recoverability of success fees in ATE insurance premiums would therefore remain.

I assure my noble friend and the House that we have given the amendments careful consideration, even at this late stage. They are proposed as a compromise and are supported by some but not all personal injury claimant representatives. It is fair to recall that these proposals are not entirely new. In his report, Lord Justice Jackson made primary recommendations that have essentially been adopted by the Government in Part 2. He also made an alternative set of recommendations which, while not identical, bear some considerable similarity to the proposals put forward by my noble friend.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Monday 12th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has indicated, the amendment would require regulations to be made under Clause 11 to make provision for appeals to a court, tribunal or other person against determinations made by the director under Clauses 8 and 9, and against the withdrawal of such determinations. I can reassure the House that the Government’s intention is to continue with the existing effective appeal procedures that are currently used by the LSC. First, an internal review on all determinations on civil legal aid will be available. This is required by Clause 11(5). Secondly, we are retaining the current system of independent lawyers, known as independent funding adjudicators, who volunteer to carry out independent reviews of funding decisions in in-scope civil and family representation cases. Clause 11 already allows us to make regulations to set out those appeal processes in secondary legislation, as they are set out currently.

The existing system, which deals with over 11,000 reviews and 3,500 appeals to independent funding adjudicators each year, is both efficient and effective and costs an estimated £60,000 per year to administer. I am not sure that he did, but it may be that the noble Lord envisions instead a tribunal to review these appeals. The review by Sir Ian Magee initiated by the previous Administration into the governance of legal aid looked at the option of directing all legal aid appeals to a tribunal and concluded that this would cost up to £1 million per year to administer. We do not believe it would be sensible to replace a system that works well with an unknown system at possibly 15 times the current cost.

This amendment would also require an appeal in cases covered by Clause 9. Again, we intend to retain the existing system under which, although there will be an internal review available in accordance with Clause 11(5), there will be no appeal to an independent funding adjudicator where applicants remain dissatisfied. I do not agree that these cases should attract a right of appeal to an IFA. It would not be appropriate to refer exceptional funding decisions to an IFA. This is because of the particular nature of the assessment at the heart of such cases, which will focus on an interpretation of the relevant obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights to provide legal aid. Exceptional case determinations, along with all other decisions by the director, would be amenable to judicial review. I think my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford confirmed that in his response to an earlier debate. I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, if there is no intention at any stage to provide for appeals to a court, tribunal or other person against such determinations, why is the option included in the first place? Either the Government intend at some point for some categories of case to be dealt with in that way or they do not. If they do, they should make regulations. If they do not, subsection (6) is otiose. However, I am making no progress with the noble and learned Lord, and at this hour I do not propose to take the matter further. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Wednesday 7th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, some nerve damage is being sustained by the noble Lord. Let us, however, concentrate on the issue, which is rather more important than claiming credit for amendments; namely, the future of patients who undergo clinical negligence and who have claims. We have heard much talk about equality of arms in litigation. I fear that what the Sophies of this world may face is more akin to a farewell to arms. That is the danger we face if legal aid is not extended.

There is a hierarchy of amendments before us tonight. Of course I endorse the Government’s amendment, as far as it goes. Equally, we support the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. However, for us the best amendment—because it effectively embraces both the others—is that tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. We wish her well should she decide to test the opinion of the House at an appropriate moment.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

My Lords, I think that it is evident to the House that we have had a very important, serious-minded and sensitive debate. I listened to many of the speeches at Second Reading when many of these points were aired, not least on perinatal and neonatal injury. I also responded to the debate in Committee when, again, passion and concern was expressed in all parts of the House.

The debate benefited from noble Lords’ experience. My noble friend Lady Eaton referred to her personal and professional experience. My noble friends Lord Faulks and Lord Carlile have professional experience in the legal sphere, as has the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. While I anticipate that I am not going to be able to bring succour to all those who spoke, I hope that in responding to the debate I may indicate that this is an issue that the Government have treated seriously, and on which they have sought to respond to many concerns expressed in earlier debates. We believe that the provisions that we are putting in place provide a proper means of addressing these important issues.

Concerns were expressed at Second Reading and in Committee about the serious and complex cases involving brain-damaged babies for whom a conditional fee agreement might not be able to be secured, and thus they would need to rely on exceptional funding under Clause 9, which could leave their families in an uncertain position. For that reason, the Government brought forward Amendment 68. I welcome the fact that it was welcomed by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, on the opposition Front Bench, and by my noble friends Lord Faulks and Lord Thomas of Gresford. My noble friend Lord Carlile said that it was a moment—perhaps a very rare moment—of ministerial bliss this evening; and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, accepted that it was a significant concession. As I indicated, it was brought forward in recognition of the concerns raised, and to put beyond doubt that legal aid will remain available for babies who suffer brain injury at birth that will lead to a lifetime of care needs.

We recognise that in these cases there are difficulties in obtaining funding through CFAs because of the extent and expense of the investigations required. We stated that we expected to spend about £6 million on legal representation in clinical negligence cases that merited exceptional funding through Clause 9; and we said that we expected a significant proportion of the £6 million to be spent on serious infant brain-damage cases. Given that fact, we decided that it would be appropriate to bring these cases back in scope. We hope that this will provide certainty to families and make the application process more straightforward.

The amendment provides funding for claims for medical negligence causes of brain injury as a result of which a child is severely disabled. I listened to, and understood, the inevitable concerns expressed about where one should draw a line, and I will say something about that. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, spoke very briefly but with a weight of personal experience, and asked whether we could identify the issues of principle that underpinned the amendment. Our intention is to cover cases of medical negligence where the child is most vulnerable: during its time in the womb, during delivery and immediately afterwards. For that reason, the amendment provides for funding in cases where negligence occurs in the period beginning with the mother’s pregnancy and continuing until eight weeks after birth. We recognise that premature babies are in a particularly vulnerable situation. That is why the amendment also provides that where a baby is born prematurely, the eight-week period will be taken to start from the point at which the mother would otherwise have begun her 37th week of pregnancy.

Because our intention is to cover birth and pregnancy-related negligence, we have had to draw the line at some point after birth. The amendment refers to the eight-week period because it is in the first few weeks of life that a child is at their most vulnerable. This period is also one in which postnatal medical care is expected to take place. It is also provided for in the guidance from the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence entitled Routine Postnatal Care of Women and their Babies. In cases where negligence occurs beyond the eight-week point, there will remain a safety net in the form of the exceptional funding scheme under Clause 9. I will say more about that when I address the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lady Eaton and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. I will address the question of whether the failure to fund would amount to a breach of the individual’s rights under the European Convention on Human Rights.

It is important to stress that exceptional funding decisions will necessarily be taken by the director on a case-by-case basis. My noble friend Lord Carlile asked if there could be a multi-party action to satisfy the Clause 9 criteria. He will be among the first to recognise that it is difficult and possibly unwise to speculate about hypothetical cases. However, in principle it would be possible. Each application would be assessed against the criteria, and it may well be appropriate to fund the lead case in a claim if there is a requirement for it to be funded under, for example, Article 6 considerations. It may be the case that other claims could then progress on a CFA basis. The question would turn on the individual case, but there could be a lead case where failure to fund it would amount to a breach.

My noble friend Lady Hamwee asked what was meant by enforceable European Union rights. They are rights to legal aid which might have direct effect in domestic law. An example would be rights enshrined under Article 47 of the European Union Charter of Fundamental Rights, which provides the equivalent of Article 6 protection in cases falling within the scope of European Union law.

Amendment 13, moved by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, seeks to bring into scope civil legal services for obtaining multiple expert reports in medical negligence cases. He indicated that government Amendment 68 would provide legal aid for cases where the most expensive and extensive medical reports would be required, and that his amendment would cater for the remainder. However, we believe that it would not be limited to the remainder of those cases that are presently funded by legal aid. Solicitors currently have to choose whether to use a legal aid route or a CFA route to fund a case. Only 18 per cent of cases where the funding method is known use legal aid. As my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford indicated, some 82 per cent of cases proceed down a conditional fee agreement route.

The amendment would open up legal aid to many cases that are funded by way of CFA, and could mean that lawyers who currently have to carry the no-win no-fee risk to get their success fee could apply for legal aid to cover the expert report in every case where their client is financially eligible, and still get their no-win no-fee success fee in respect of their other legal costs. This is not a fair balance for the taxpayer. It could also result in a significant expansion of the legal aid scheme. The taxpayer should not be required to pay where these cases have already been taken forward and paid for by alternative means. The position would also be limited to those who are financially eligible for legal aid. That would mean that those who are outside that eligibility—which could be many people—would have no assistance in funding expert reports in criminal negligence cases.

I recall that in Committee the noble and learned Lord presented a torrent of figures, and I indicated that we would look at them. I encouraged officials to look at them and I know that there was some engagement, that he met my noble friend Lord McNally and that there were exchanges on these figures. In this situation, we must agree to differ. The Ministry of Justice analysts carefully reviewed the calculations. We sought to explain the Ministry of Justice’s calculations. The matter is very technical; I have tried to get my head round both sets of figures.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Wednesday 7th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, the amendment would bring consumer law back into scope. Consumer law does not simply cover small issues that perhaps citizens advice bureaux or other organisations could speedily resolve. It can relate to much more significant claims: for example, professional negligence claims against members of my profession, against the professions of other noble Lords in the Chamber at the moment—heaven forfend—or against those who have custody of their clients’ money in investment funds. I refer to people like Michael Brown, the well known donor to the Liberal Democrats, who managed to make off with £2.5 million of other people’s money. There is a range of cases for which legal advice and assistance is clearly very important.

In consulting on these matters, the Government made the obvious point that these cases are not of the same gravity as—to use a term that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, used earlier—issues of safety and liberty. That of course is true but does not take us very far. They can certainly affect people’s lives as well as their fortunes very substantially. A range of claims might be brought that would be entirely out of scope and where, even if conditional fee agreements were obtainable —as they might be—questions would then arise about success fees, premiums and the like.

It is incumbent on the Government to look again at the issue and acknowledge that, while generally these are not matters that threaten life and liberty, they can make a significant difference to a great many people in our society, and that there will often—though not always—be a requirement for legal advice and representation. In Committee, much was made of the funding that the Government had already announced, which was again foreshadowed tonight with reference to possible similar sums over the next two or three years. However, as my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith mentioned, many organisations are already facing significant cuts in their funding—particularly Citizens Advice, law centres and the like—at a time when demand for their services, even before the changes in the legal aid system come in, is already rising.

I therefore hope that the Minister will feel able to indicate a reconsideration of the position as of tonight or, failing that, will agree to take this away and bring it back at Third Reading in the hope that we can accommodate the very real needs of many people who face considerable financial and, potentially, other losses as a result of failure on the part of those with whom they contract to deliver what is expected of them. I beg to move.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has moved his amendment to make civil legal services available for consumer disputes. It will come as no surprise to him that in response to a similar amendment in Committee we explained, and I do not apologise for repeating it because it is at the core of the architecture of the Bill, that in developing our reforms we have focused legal aid on those who need it most and for the most serious cases in which it is justified.

I recognise that there will be some difficult cases—for example, consumer matters that are concerned with financial matters—but we nevertheless consider that their relative importance is lower compared with, for example, issues of safety and liberty. Issues of safety and liberty are of the highest importance. That is why, in having to make these kinds of decisions, we have removed legal aid from consumer disputes. Moreover, we also note that, particularly in this sphere, there are other sources of advice; for example, trading standards and Consumer Direct. There may be alternative non-court-based solutions in some cases through regulators and ombudsmen. I do not think they can be as lightly dismissed as sometimes they are. Any consumer matter that concerns alleged contravention of the Equality Act 2010 will be within scope.

As was indicated in an earlier debate, the Government will provide additional funding to the not-for-profit sector in the Budget, and it is often a sector that has a role to play in areas such as this. It will be made available within the current spending review period. I understand that the Cabinet Office review is expected to conclude shortly and will provide recommendations on proposals to secure the long-term sustainability of the sector. I hope that the House will allow this important work to reach its conclusion.

There is consistency in our responses. When lines have to be drawn and decisions taken about what should or should not be within scope, we believe that higher priority should be given to some of the areas I have indicated. In these circumstances, consumer matters do not fall within the area we believe should be within scope. On that basis, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I remain disappointed in that response. There is potentially a huge range of claims that might be made. Some of them are minimal and perfectly capable of being disposed of in the way the noble and learned Lord referred to. Other are clearly of a different order altogether. Negligence advice from a solicitor, accountant, architect or other professional person can be very costly to individuals who may not be able to afford litigation. Even if they recover using CFAs, they will potentially lose a significant slice of the amount they have already lost. I do not think that is just, and it again reinforces the impression that the Government are giving that they are content with, effectively, a two-tier system of justice from which many people will be excluded. It is most unfortunate, but clearly in the circumstances and in the light of the time, there is not much point in seeking to test the opinion of the House. Accordingly, I beg to leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, this amendment gives me a sense of déjà vu. More than 30 years ago, I acted for a father whose three children were in effect abducted by his wife and removed to Scandinavia in flagrant breach of undertakings and a court order. The case was tried by a Mr Justice Faulks. I do not know whether he was any relation of the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, who is not now in his place. It was a tragic case; the father lost virtually all contact with his two daughters, although his son eventually returned of his own volition. It exemplifies the kind of family tragedy that can occur when one party flouts all legal responsibilities.

I congratulate the noble and learned Baroness on bringing these amendments forward. Since there is a sympathetic reaction from the Government, I hope that the Minister will undertake to bring this back at Third Reading to resolve the matter satisfactorily. It seems axiomatic that the same procedure should, as the noble and learned Baroness suggests, apply whether the abduction is outside the jurisdiction of the UK courts or within one of the three jurisdictions that obtain. It looks as though the Government are minded to accede to that. I very much hope that an indication can be given that this will be resolved at Third Reading.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, as she has indicated, the amendments moved and spoken to by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, concern legal aid for measures to prevent the unlawful removal of a child within the United Kingdom and for taking steps to remedy such a removal. They would add to similar existing legal provisions for legal aid to prevent and remedy the unlawful removal of children from the United Kingdom. It is important to stress that unauthorised removal from the United Kingdom is a crime, whereas, as has been acknowledged in this debate, one parent taking a child to another part of the United Kingdom without consent is not. Trying to navigate a foreign jurisdiction in a foreign language without a lawyer would also be considerably more difficult than trying to do something similar in the United Kingdom.

That said, the noble and learned Baroness has, as ever, made a powerful and persuasive case. We have indicated that in future people should, subject to various important exceptions, be able to deal with their family matters themselves, without the benefit of taxpayer-funded legal aid. However, I certainly recognise that if you cannot even find your child because they are in the hands of an ex-husband, ex-wife or estranged partner, it may seem impossible even to begin that process. The emotional stress on people in such situations can be immense. Therefore, we are sympathetic to the concerns of the noble and learned Baroness, particularly the proposals to make legal aid available for Section 33 and Section 34 orders under the Family Law Act 1986 —that is, the seek and find orders and the recovery orders.

Seek and find orders allow a court to compel someone who might reasonably know where a child is to tell the court. The court will then judge whether this information should be passed on to the left-behind parent. Obviously, if there are safety issues it might not be advisable to do so. Refusal to impart that information is treated as contempt. Thankfully, Section 34 orders are somewhat rarer, but they give the police powers to recover a child forcibly in emergency situations. As the noble and learned Baroness identified, we are not yet convinced that the associated prohibited steps and specific issue orders require funding. The same applies to registering an order made in one part of the United Kingdom in another part.

I fully accept that the noble and learned Baroness is not trying to find a backdoor entry into private law matters. However, our concern, and the reason we are not yet convinced about this, is that these orders get us much more into funding a family case as a whole, including by preventing relocation. The issue here is that many cases involving children are in fact arguments about where a parent with residence might reasonably live and the effect that will have on contact for the other parent. Therefore, when we talk about prevention in this context, that is the kind of situation we are talking about. I know that the noble and learned Baroness, from her vast experience, would see it as that. However, sometimes when members of the public talk about prevention orders, they have an image of stopping a child being bundled into the back of a car. That is sometimes the description conjured up by “domestic child abduction”.

If the noble and learned Baroness is willing to withdraw this amendment, the Government will table at Third Reading a similar amendment that covers Section 33 and Section 34 orders, for international abduction as well as domestic. I am happy for officials in the Ministry of Justice to continue discussions with the noble and learned Baroness, which I know have been ongoing, as she acknowledged, on the exact drafting of that amendment.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Monday 5th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, this is a short and simple amendment. In replying to the last debate, the Minister indicated that guidance and directions would have to be published. That is of course helpful, but what would be more helpful in reinforcing the independence of the director is if the guidance and directions had to be approved by a vote in each House. Given the potentially wide scope of directions and guidance, it seems sensible to provide for such consideration and, indeed, for an affirmative vote. I beg to move.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, if Amendment 4A were accepted, it would mean that directions and guidance issued by the Lord Chancellor would require the approval of this House before being in force. Directions or guidance cannot conflict with secondary legislation made under Part 1—a point I made in the previous debate—and we cannot see any reason for bringing them separately before the House. As I have already said, Clause 4 requires the Lord Chancellor to publish all directions and guidance given to the director. Transparency is achieved through this provision and, as I hope that the House agrees, the director would be required to produce an annual report on the operation of their functions. The report will include an explanation as to how directions and guidance have shaped decisions. I can also assure your Lordships’ House that the Lord Chancellor will, as a matter of good administration, keep guidance and any directions issued under continual review. That emphasises the fact that, if it is to be kept under continual review, having to bring them back every time to be amended would be an unnecessarily burdensome process in the efficient administration of the legal aid scheme. It would not in any way enhance the transparency that we seek to achieve—and on that we have common ground. Accordingly, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, the House has gone some distance in reinforcing the independence of the director, and I trust that the Government will accept that position. On that perhaps optimistic assumption, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, this is again a perfectly simple amendment, and the Minister anticipated it in his reply to the previous amendment in indicating that matters will be reviewed. The amendment provides for a more systematic review, perhaps, than the Minister implied. Since his implication was that there may be a number of changes over time, it seems sensible that there should be a consolidation, and a three-year period should be sufficient to allow a view to be taken about progress and the actions of both government and the director under the terms of the legislation. I should have thought that it was a simple enough request. It does not require parliamentary approval in this case but it at least allows for a considered view to be taken after a reasonable period of time. Given that this is a new process, one would have thought that that would be helpful. I hope that the Minister on this occasion might see his way to accepting the amendment. I beg to move.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

Again, my Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has indicated that the purpose of his amendment is that any guidance or directions issued under Clause 4 must be reviewed on a regular basis in an interval of not more than three years from the time that they were issued. As I indicated in respect of the previous amendment, it is not possible for any of the directions or guidance to conflict with the secondary legislation made under this part of the Bill.

We believe that the review provided for by the amendment is unnecessary as a statutory requirement. However, I assure the noble Lord and your Lordships’ House that the Lord Chancellor will, as a matter of good administration, keep guidance and any directions issued under continual review. Protections are afforded to the director through the operation of Clause 4. There is also an opportunity for transparency, which is achieved through the publication of directions and guidance. These are important safeguards and, in the Government’s view, those arrangements are not improved upon or added to by the amendment. As I indicated, in some circumstances there might well be a maximum period of three years, but the amendment poses an additional statutory burden. I have given an assurance that the Lord Chancellor, as a matter of good administration, will keep the guidance and directions under continual review, and I hope that with that reassurance the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I am certainly prepared to accept the assurances that the Minister has given. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Monday 30th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My plane from Edinburgh, too, was delayed today; I understand the noble Lord's difficulties. He mentioned the arrangement for making offers. Part 36 arrangements were spoken to by my noble friend Lord Thomas when he moved the amendment. I will come to the matter in responding to the debate.

As I indicated, very often these cumulative costs can lead defendants to feel under pressure to settle a claim when they have no legal reason to do so, through fear of incurring payment of excessive costs as the case proceeds.

Without Clauses 43 and 45, high and disproportionate costs in civil litigation will continue. Access to justice will not become more meaningful for all parties, as we intend. If all the amendments to Clause 43 were agreed, the fundamental elements of the Government's reform package would be lost, and defendants would continue to be liable for significant additional costs across a range of cases. It is useful to put the level of costs in some context. My noble friend Lord Phillips pointed out that one general liability insurer indicated that, in 1999, claimants’ solicitor’s costs were equivalent to just over half the damages paid; by 2004, average claimants’ costs were roughly the same as the damages; and, by 2010, average claimants’ costs represented one and a half times the damages received by the injured victims, and indicated that while average damages paid have increased by one-third since 1999, average claimants’ costs have increased by two and a third times over that period. These figures reflect Sir Rupert Jackson’s findings that claimants’ costs are substantially higher than defendants’ costs, and that claimants’ costs in CFA cases are substantially higher than in non-CFA cases.

[Lord Beecham]

If damages had increased, as recommended in 1999, and kept pace with inflation, that ratio would not be quite as wide, would it?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, perhaps I may deal with Amendments 121, 122, 129, 130, 134, 136A, 136B, 151, 152, 156AA, 156AB and 156C together. All seek to exempt certain types of cases from the Government’s reforms of no-win no-fee conditional fee agreements—CFAs. My noble friend Lord Newton described some of these amendments as being parts of a blunderbuss approach. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, described it as a bit of a shopping list. I shall come on to the issue relating to mesothelioma sufferers.

The amendments clearly stem from concerns that individuals may be unable to afford to bring certain personal injury cases. My noble friend Lord Newton of Braintree anticipated later amendments in the group beginning with Amendment 137A, which will be moved by the noble Lord, Lord Alton. I recognise that other issues arise such as the difficulty in trying to track down previous employers. I know that my noble friend Lord McNally will respond to that group of amendments and bear in mind what my noble friend Lord Newton said. When I was a Justice Minister in Scotland, I remember the plight of many mesothelioma sufferers, who were trying to get the process expedited so that their cases could be brought to court because many of them had a very short life expectancy. I certainly recognise the importance of those cases and I am sure that there will be a fuller debate on the back of the amendments to be moved and spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Alton.

The difficulty with the other amendments in this group, as my noble friend Lord Newton said, is that when taken together they do not leave very much of the original intention of the Bill. With regard to recoverable or non-recoverable success fees being shifted to the defendants, it was pointed out in the previous debate that such fees have led to an escalation of costs. A plaintiff does not have the same interest, or may have no interest, in seeking to contain costs in those circumstances. One amendment relates to situations in which the defendants are public authorities. Some people have to pay the price of these additional costs. In motor insurance cases, we pay them through increased premiums. Council tax payers will no doubt bear some cost when escalating costs are picked up by public authorities.

The changes that we are bringing about will lead to costs becoming more proportionate. Equally, claimants will still be able to bring necessary and meritorious claims, and receive damages when they are due. However, as with privately paying clients, claimants on CFAs may have to pay some of their legal costs out of damages recovered. However, as I have indicated, we are introducing a number of measures that will help claimants to pay their solicitors’ success fees. The point was well made by my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford, in response to the previous debate, that in many cases no success fee is charged and some solicitors may have a selling point: “We will litigate for you, and no success fee will be charged”. That is more than likely to happen.

We must also remember that there will be a 10 per cent increase in general damages for non-pecuniary loss such as pain, suffering and loss of amenity. There will be a cap on the success fee at 25 per cent of damages awarded but, significantly, that will not apply to damages for future care and loss in personal injury cases. That will help to protect a claimant’s damages.

We have already discussed qualified one-way cost shifting. That will mean that losing claimants in personal injury cases who act reasonably will not have to pay a winning defendant’s costs, which in turn will reduce the need to have expensive ATE insurance products. Amendment 156AB is intended to ensure that the changes to the ATE insurance arrangements under Clause 45 do not come into force until the QOCS regime has come into force. I assure the Committee that we intend the package of reform to come into force at the same time.

On Amendment 156C, Clause 46 prohibits membership organisations from claiming the costs incurred by self-insuring against risk. That point was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, in our previous debate. As I understand it, under the Access to Justice (Membership Organisation) Regulations 2005, bodies are listed by the certification officer. Trade unions represent an important number of those bodies, but a number of others have also been listed under Section 30 of the Access to Justice Act 1999.

As has been said on many occasions, the Government have decided to abolish the recoverability of ATE insurance premiums, and believe that this change should apply equally to arrangements for membership organisations. Retaining the recoverability of ATE insurance premiums for membership organisations would create an unfair advantage and mean that defendants in claims brought by members of such organisations would continue to be liable for significant additional costs in such cases and be placed at a disadvantage.

Lord Justice Jackson made no formal recommendations in reference to member organisations. In such a compendious report, one may wonder why not. Nevertheless, in his response to the consultation, he supported the Government’s proposal that changes to the recoverability of ATE insurance premiums ought to apply equally to the arrangements for membership organisations in order to remove any unfair advantage. That view was shared by 63 per cent of respondents to the consultation, who thought that retaining recoverability of the self-insurance element for membership organisations would create an unfair advantage. It is to ensure that that unfair advantage does not occur that we resist the amendment, and I invite the noble Lord to withdraw it.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Newton, that this is a group of probing amendments to see which, if any, the Government might feel on reflection ought to be accepted and the scope of the current scheme in effect retained. Clearly, the answer has not been one to encourage optimism on this side of the House, but there are cases, particularly the last one to which the noble and learned Lord referred, where the Government are trying, as so often, to have it both ways.

In previous debates we have heard trade unions invoked as a source of advice and support for their members once legal aid goes. This is an area in which trade unions have for a long time been active in promoting the interests of their members. They will now lose that benefit. In my view, there is a strong case for the Government to look again at the position. I accept that they want organisations such as trade unions to support their members in the field of legal advice, but if so, they ought to endeavour to facilitate that, not at the Government's expense but by retaining success fees and the self-insurance element that the noble and learned Lord proposes to remove.

Asbestosis is probably the most acute of the diseases involved, and when we will come to a debate on it I will strongly support the noble Lord, Lord Alton. It is sometimes forgotten that it is not just direct exposure to asbestos that causes problems and has resulted in litigation but indirect exposure. There have been cases in which wives dealing with laundry and clothes that have been contaminated with asbestos fibres have themselves suffered injury. They have eventually succeeded in obtaining compensation, but that is an illustration of the kind of difficulty and complexity that can arise. There may well be other cases. Every few years, a new condition reaches the courts. Asbestosis was one; miners’ lung disease, pneumoconiosis, was another; and there are others. Although it is certainly true that, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, pointed out, some lawyers rather exploited the position in some of those cases involving minters, on the other hand many lawyers took these cases on over a very long period at considerable risk to themselves before obtaining settlements. That eventually led to the sensible outcome of a national scheme that determined a scale of damages and, for that matter, the scale of costs. There will be other cases. One imagines that cases may arise over time in the nuclear industry. There have already been some in which radiation has caused damage. I hope that at the very least the Government will look at those cases sympathetically.

The noble and learned Lord referred again to the number of cases that are being pursued. However, I remind him of the figures that I quoted in the first debate: the very detailed analysis of 69,000 cases showed that a third would simply not have been brought under the proposals presently in the Bill. A significant proportion of cases would therefore be pursued, many of them no doubt successfully although others not.

If we are still in the business of trying to promote access to justice by spreading the risk so that it is not always against lawyers’ interests to run cases with a lesser probability of success, that is something that the system should encourage. The fear is certainly that cases with less than a 75 per cent chance of success will just not reach the courts. A very respected firm, Thompsons, which acts for a number of trade unions, indicates that at the moment it takes cases with a risk level as low as 50 per cent, and it cannot see how it could conceivably do that in the future. Yet some of the very cases that we have been talking about involving asbestosis, pneumoconiosis and so on started off with a probable success rate of 50 per cent at best and arguably even worse. If we are not to close the door on emerging cases of that kind or on cases with perhaps a two-thirds chance of success, we have to have a balance to which success fees can contribute. The Opposition’s case is that that ought not to be simply a matter for successful defendants; it ought to be a collective insurance risk. That is the position that we seek to get to.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for setting out that position. As he said, we will come to issues of criminal legal aid later today—I hope; I am sure.

This is going over old ground, but it is important. The scale of the deficit reduction that has been required exceeded what many of us thought before we came into government in May 2010. As I said, that has resulted in some difficult decisions. On two occasions, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said that it was unfair to make that point with regard to professional negligence cases. He cited the response to the consultation, when we said that those were claims concerned primarily with recovering damages and that we considered that their relative importance was generally low compared, for example, with issues of safety and liberty. He seemed to say that that is so blatantly true that it does not add anything.

If one has limited resources, those are the kind of priority judgments that must be made. In Schedule 1, we have tried to apply those priorities in different circumstances. Again citing the response, he said that people who would be bringing damages claims were not likely in general to be vulnerable compared with detained mental health patients and elderly care home residents, who are unable to present their own case. He agreed that that is clearly the case. If we have to establish priorities, I think he would agree that priority would go to a detained mental health patient or an elderly care home resident.

If there was an unlimited fund of resources, the noble Lord’s point would have far more force, but given that there is not, given that decisions have had to be made as to what comes within scope and what does not, I think the balance that we have sought to strike of giving precedence to issues of life, liberty and homelessness is proper.

It is for that reason that we did not include consumer claims within the scope. The noble Lord raised the question of professional negligence cases. It is fair to say that, when we come to Part 2, conditional fee agreements may be available for cases involving damages. That makes the provision of legal aid in such cases less likely to be justified. As has already been well rehearsed, other sources of advice are available on consumer matters. There are trading standards officers, Consumer Direct and alternative non-court based solutions through regulators or ombudsmen—such as the Financial Ombudsman Service for people with complaints about financial services or Otelo for complaints relating to telecommunications.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, talked about the cut in CABs’ funding. Of course, there will be an impact on CABs’ funding from legal aid, although it is estimated that that is only 15 per cent of CABs’ funding. At the risk of saying this yet again, the Chamber will be well aware that the Government announced a further £20 million funding in June last year for not-for-profit advice agencies and are considering funding for future years. Last February, £27 million was announced for continued funding administered by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills for this financial year to maintain the face-to-face debt advice programme in citizen's advice bureaux and other independent advice agencies across England and Wales.

To pick up the important point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, additional funding has been announced for not-for-profit advice agencies, and the Government are considering funding for those organisations for future years. As parallels the previous debate, we will retain legal aid for consumer matters where they concern an alleged contravention of the Equality Act 2010. Many cases involving the Equality Act will be within scope.

At the end of the day, it boils down to the fact that, with finite resources, priorities have to be made. We have had one of, if not the most, generously funded legal aid schemes in the world. Even after the changes are implemented, should the House pass the Bill, it will still be a very generously funded legal aid system. Regrettably, some choices are very difficult, but I hope that the priorities we have identified stand up to scrutiny. It is more than axiomatic that when you have limited funds, life, liberty and dealing with homelessness and discrimination are important and that people who are less able to articulate their case or defend themselves should have priority. On that basis, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Howarth and Lord Clinton-Davis, my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, for their contributions. I am also grateful to my noble friend Lord Bach for his intervention, although if the Government were proposing only to decimate legal aid—to take 10 per cent off—I would almost be prepared to accept that. I think he was using the phrase in the vernacular sense rather than the literal sense, because we face a much bigger reduction in legal aid and advice on funding than the 10 per cent actually means.

To refer back to my noble friend Lord Howarth's contribution in an earlier debate, he was asking about the knock-on costs of some of the changes. It may interest him to know that I have tabled a Question for Written Answer inviting the Government to say what estimates they have made of the cost to other government departments and whether those departments have accepted them or made any representations about them.

The noble and learned Lord again advances the mantra about life and liberty, and of course they are most important. I am tempted to say that the Government believe in life and liberty but not in the pursuit of remedies, to paraphrase. More importantly, we are seeing the virtual death of equality before the law. There are areas where inequality will be deepened for a modest saving, at the very best. That is a socially divisive measure. It runs contrary to the big society concept and some of the words that we are hearing. The practical effect will be the denial of justice to far too many people. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but it is a matter to which we may well return.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I have listened carefully to the representations and arguments put forward. Amendment 90 would delete paragraph 16 of Part 2 of Schedule 1:

“Civil legal services provided in relation to compensation under the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme”.

I think I am right in saying that the architecture does not apply right across the board for criminal injuries, but only in cases that are brought within scope under Part 1.

I note what the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said about the potential complexity of applying and the advice given to possible applicants, although I think it is fair to say that applications can be made online and by telephone, and the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority itself provides help and guidance.

I rather suspect that the numbers involved are small, although I could not indicate just how many, but I have listened, I believe that some important points have been made, and I want to reflect on this—without any commitment. On that basis, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Beecham]

I am extremely grateful for—not to say surprised and delighted by—the noble and learned Lord’s generous offer, and I hope that we can take matters forward in the spirit that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, referred to. I withdraw the amendment.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

That certainly must be a risk, and the need for the assistance of the Court of Protection is therefore enhanced. I am grateful to my noble friend for allowing that point to be emphasised. It is therefore essential that legal aid is available so that the court can be approached and the Official Solicitor can represent the person in question. Otherwise, he would be unable to do so because there would be no provision for costs.

I hope that despite the odd location of our amendment the Minister might look at it with some sympathy, and that if he cannot come to a conclusion on it, given that it was tabled very late, he will at least agree that he will take this matter back to look at before we reach Report.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for introducing this group of amendments. Arguably, there is nothing more fundamental for a parliament to discuss than the relationship between the state and the citizen. His amendments have given rise to an important debate, with contributions from my noble friend Lord Phillips, the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Howarth. I hope that I can reassure Members of the Committee in my response.

Amendment 60 seeks to make civil legal aid available for claims in relation to any alleged unlawful act by a public authority that causes reasonably foreseeable harm. In general terms, Schedule 1 makes legal aid available for the most serious cases and for proceedings that seek to hold public bodies to account for their decisions. This includes civil legal services for judicial review of an act, decision or omission, and provides a means for people to challenge the lawfulness of a public authority’s actions on public grounds.

In terms of private law claims primarily for damages, while we consider that such claims do not generally justify funding, an important exception to the rule provided for in the Bill is for the most serious claims against public authorities. The Bill ensures that funding may be made available for tort and other damages claims against public authorities for an abuse of position or powers, a significant breach of human rights, allegations of the abuse of a child or vulnerable adult, or allegations of a sexual offence. The definition—about which I shall say more—of:

“Abuse of position or power by public authority”,

is intended to cover the most serious misuses of state power. That is why it is defined in the Bill as an alleged act that is deliberate or dishonest, and that causes reasonably foreseeable harm to a person or property. Our definition would exclude from scope a range of less serious cases against public authorities—a point made by my noble friend Lord Phillips—including simple negligence claims such as “slipping” or “tripping”. He asked if “deliberate” abuse of position or power is the same as “intentional”. The answer is yes. As to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who asked whether “deliberate” referred to a deliberate act or deliberate consequences, the word refers to the act or omission that is complained of and for which legal aid is sought. Legal aid would therefore be available for deliberate or dishonest acts or omissions by a public authority that cause reasonably foreseeable harm.

Amendment 60 would widen the scope of paragraph 19 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 to make legal aid available for claims in tort or other damages claims for any alleged unlawful act by a public authority that causes harm. Noble Lords will be interested to know that unlawful acts are already covered by paragraph 19, which covers situations where an act is deliberate and dishonest, and results in foreseeable harm. However, the concern is that the amendment as tabled would widen the coverage beyond what we believe should be within scope.

Alternatively, public law challenges to the lawfulness of a public authority’s action can be brought by judicial review, which is in scope under the Bill. We have focused limited resources on those who need them most and the most serious cases, in which legal advice or representation is justified. I accept that that approach means that public funding will not be available for each and every claim involving a public authority, but it is intended to be available for the most serious cases and to address serious abuses.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I am not sure that I fully understand the point that the noble Lord is making. Obviously, if at a later stage a case clearly qualifies for legal aid under the definition here, one would expect legal aid to be available. Furthermore, in many of the cases that we are talking about where legal aid might not be available, conditional fee agreements might provide a viable alternative where there is clearly merit in the case but it would not qualify under the definition here.

[Lord Beecham]

I am sorry to intervene and I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Are the Government approaching this matter as though it is to deal only with claims for damages? Of course, other forms of relief might be sought—injunctive relief, declarations and so on—that might bring a spotlight to bear on the alleged abuse that has occurred. That might be the most powerful way of dealing with the error in the first place. Is that not something for which legal aid should be available?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I have tried to identify the other parts of Schedule 1 where other remedies are indicated to be within scope. If I can find the place in my notes, I shall be able to make them very clear. I think I made it clear that judicial review, referred to in paragraph 17 of Part 1 of Schedule 1, is within scope of legal aid. I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, that there may be many cases where that is the most appropriate route to go down and it would be within scope. However, I have indicated that, where damages are concerned, the criteria that I have tried to set out are the ones that would apply at the serious end of abuse. I gave specific examples of things that are within scope within the schedule, judicial review being possibly the most obvious.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Tuesday 8th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I do not have the figures immediately to hand, although before I finish I might be able to provide the number of county boundaries that are crossed by constituencies. I accept that the number of constituencies that cross county boundaries is different. From my recollection of our previous debates on this issue, a number of county boundaries are crossed by constituencies. I hope that by the time I conclude my remarks I can advise the House as to the exact number of county boundaries that are crossed. I am sure that in each case it is thought the counties are properly historic.

[Lord Beecham]

Does the Minister accept that if the 5 per cent threshold were adopted, only nine out of 46 county boundaries would not be crossed by new constituencies?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, one can only speculate at present on what the Boundary Commission will propose. I know that some efforts are being made to work out what might happen. I could not accept that because we have not seen any Boundary Commission proposals. However, I emphasise to your Lordships the importance of wards, which the noble Baroness mentions in her amendment. We will debate this matter later, because the Government have responded to requests that wards should be one of the key building blocks. It is, of course, at the ward level that many local ties are reflected. The wards will be significant building blocks in the new constituencies.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Beecham

Monday 20th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

The noble and learned Lord virtually took the words out of my mouth. There is a difference in that, if there is a penalty on the candidate, it does not follow that the penalty should then be on the voter who has in all good faith expressed a second preference. The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, made the point that it could be a way to penalise smaller parties, or indeed, as he put it, local campaigns. Let us remember that at recent general elections in this country and at a Scottish election in 2003 a candidate opposing hospital closures won. It might not necessarily have been obvious at the outset that these people were going to get far more than 5 per cent, but the fact that they are perhaps not mainstream in no way means that they should be devalued. It may well put people off from voting for candidates who appear to be coming from a local campaign, or let us say a non-mainstream party, if it was thought in some way that the second preference was not going to count. The object, as the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, said, is to broaden choice, and I fear that the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, would not contribute to that broader choice. I therefore urge him to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Beecham]

In the circumstances I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.