Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedule 5) Order 2014

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Earl of Mar and Kellie

Wednesday 7th May 2014 Grand Committee

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness) (LD)]

My Lords, I shall provide a brief summary of what this draft order, which was laid before the House on 17 March 2014, seeks to achieve. The order is made under Section 30(2) of the Scotland Act 1998, which provides a mechanism whereby Schedule 4 or Schedule 5 to that Act can be modified by an Order in Council, subject to the agreement of both the UK Parliament and the Scottish Parliament. This order will amend Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, which I shall refer to as the 1998 Act, to update the definition of “food” in that Act. It will also amend Section J4 of Schedule 5 to the 1998 Act to reflect the agreement reached regarding the regulation of animal feeding stuffs.

Upon devolution, the regulation of food safety and standards was devolved under the 1998 Act. As at 1 July 1999, the 1998 Act understood “food” to be as was defined by the Food Safety Act 1990. Post devolution, that definition was changed on a GB-wide basis by the Food Safety Act 1990 (Amendment) Regulations 2004 to align it with the new European Union definition of “food”. The definition at devolution and the definition post devolution are largely similar, but they are not identical. I would like to be clear that this is a technical, legal difference and there is not necessarily a specific food which would have fallen under one definition and not the other. Importantly, this 2004 change resulted in a mismatch between the legal definition of “food” in the 1998 Act and “food” as it was defined in EU law. The legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament and the executive competence of the Scottish Ministers was, therefore, limited by an out-of-date definition of “food”. This was never the intention of the 1998 Act.

Similarly, in relation to non-medicinal animal feed and additives, the regulation of animal feed safety and standards was also devolved under the 1998 Act, except for the regulation of veterinary medicines, which was reserved. Section J4 in the 1998 Act reserves the subject matter of the Medicines Act 1968, which I shall refer to as the 1968 Act. Section 130(1) of the 1968 Act, as it stood as at 1 July 1999, defined “medicinal product” as including substances fed to animals and, therefore, veterinary medicinal products. However, it was subsequently agreed between the Veterinary Medicines Directorate—an executive agency of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—and the Food Standards Agency that certain zootechnical additives, which do not have a medicinal effect on the animals that consume them, should be regulated within the framework of animal feed law rather than veterinary medicines legislation. It was agreed that the Veterinary Medicines Directorate would regulate for the UK all matters falling within the scope agreed and set out in the Veterinary Medicines Regulations 2005. Although those regulations have since been revoked, being replaced or amended by new veterinary medicines regulations almost every year, the definitions of “veterinary medicinal product” and “specified feed additives” have been unchanged since 2005. In effect, certain animal feed-stuffs and additives ceased to be veterinary medicinal products yet continued to fall within the scope of the reservation stated at Section J4 in the 1998 Act. Thus, the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament and the executive competence of the Scottish Ministers was limited.

To address these problems, in 2005 and 2006 orders were made under Section 63 of the 1998 Act to update the executive competence of the Scottish Ministers by transferring certain necessary functions to them. These orders allowed Scottish Ministers to continue to regulate for food safety and standards by giving full effect to EU law, and also allowed them to legislate for, and control, all non-medicinal animal feed in Scotland. However, those orders did not, and could not, address the issue of the Scottish Parliament’s legislative competence in these areas. This Section 30 order will bring the Scottish Parliament’s legislative competence better into line with the executive competence of Scottish Ministers, both by updating the definition of “food” in the 1998 Act—thus bringing it into line with European Union legislation—and by amending Section J4 of Schedule 5, with respect to animal feeding stuffs. We believe that this order is a sensible way of addressing the anomalies I have described.

This order demonstrates the Government’s continued commitment to working with the Scottish Government to make the devolution settlement work in a very practical way. I hope the Committee will agree that this order is a reasonable use of the powers in the Scotland Act 1998. The order was debated in the House of Commons on 29 April this year and received the approval of that House on 30 April. I commend the order to the Committee. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Mar and Kellie (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for explaining the content of the order. I welcome any move that is devolutionary in character. I certainly believe that Scottish-branded food and the animal feed-stuff that goes toward producing it are a central part of the Scottish economy and the tourist economy. I believe that Scottish farmers and growers are some of the most efficient in the world and that the Scottish Parliament therefore should certainly be in direct control of this type of regulation.

Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2013

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Earl of Mar and Kellie

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Grand Committee

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

My Lords, I will provide the Committee with a brief summary of what the order seeks to achieve. It is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for necessary or expedient changes to legislation in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament. The order is made in consequence of the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012, which received Royal Assent on 7 August 2012. I shall refer to this as the 2012 Act.

The 2012 Act creates a single Police Service of Scotland, which will be maintained by the Scottish Police Authority. This service will replace the eight existing police forces maintained by local police authorities and the two central bodies which currently provide national policing services in Scotland. The 2012 Act, together with this order, repeals the Police (Scotland) Act 1967 and replaces it with a new statutory framework for policing.

The 2012 Act also creates a single Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. This newly created service replaces the two unitary fire and rescue authorities and six joint fire and rescue boards which are currently in place. The 2012 Act amends the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 to establish this single fire service.

Additionally, the 2012 Act provides for the Police Complaints Commissioner for Scotland to be renamed the Police Investigations and Review Commissioner, with expanded powers to carry out investigations into serious incidents and other matters relating to the police. The 2012 Act also places independent custody visiting in Scotland on a statutory footing, ensuring compliance with the Optional Protocol to the Convention Against Torture.

As will be seen, it is a very substantial order in terms of size, but I can assure the Committee that it is entirely consequential in content. Its intention is not to make any new policy but simply to ensure the continuity of current arrangements when the 2012 Act comes fully into force on 1 April by updating existing legislation to refer to the newly created Scottish Police Authority, Police Service of Scotland and Scottish Fire and Rescue Service.

The order makes provision for mutual aid and collaboration agreements between the new Scottish services and other forces and services in the United Kingdom. For police, this replaces provision in the Police (Scotland) Act 1967 and, for fire, it provides a clear statutory footing to ensure that the current relationships continue to work effectively. The order will also make certain transitional and savings provisions, again for the purpose of guaranteeing continuity of services.

Following its scrutiny of the order, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee drew the attention of this House to the instrument on the grounds that it gives rise to issues of public policy which may be of interest to it. I take this opportunity to thank the committee for its consideration of the order and address the issue that it raised.

Article 9 of the order makes it an offence to cause disaffection among members of the Police Service of Scotland, the British Transport Police or the Civil Nuclear Constabulary. It also makes it an offence to induce a member of any of those forces to withhold services.

With regard to the scope of the offence, I assure your Lordships that it is not the intention that an individual would be charged under the offence set out in Article 9 for merely expressing an opinion or legitimate concerns. The UK Government would expect a prosecution to follow only where there was a real and serious attempt to cause disaffection. Such action could lead to a breakdown in the ability of the police to maintain public order and to protect society. Any attempt to undermine the role of the police in this way is a serious matter and must be addressed. That is why we consider this offence to be necessary.

Offences parallel to that proposed in Article 9 already exist in relation to all UK police forces and the specialist forces; namely, the British Transport Police, Civil Nuclear Constabulary and Ministry of Defence Police. The Home Office has confirmed that there is no intention to remove the offence in England and Wales, and it is my understanding that its repeal is not being contemplated in Northern Ireland either. These offences are considered to be essential to the proper operation of policing. The intention of the order is to ensure that the new Police Service of Scotland can continue to work effectively with the other police forces within the UK. Not to include this offence would cause a discrepancy between constables of the Police Service of Scotland and those of other UK forces. It would also cause a discrepancy, for example, between members of the British Transport Police operating in Scotland and their colleagues in England and Wales.

It may well be the case that your Lordships’ House will wish to consider the terms of this offence in a wider context. I would submit that the purpose of this order is simply to maintain continuity and consistency between the new Police Service of Scotland and other forces across the UK. It would not be appropriate if the Scottish Government had proposed removing the offence for forces operating in Scotland as this would leave a significant gap for effective policing throughout the United Kingdom. Moreover, if your Lordships’ House continues to have concerns about the general policy surrounding the offence of disaffection, it would not be appropriate to use this technical piece of subordinate legislation to address such wider concern here as this order is concerned with maintaining effective policing in Scotland and ensuring continuity of current policing arrangements.

With regard to the instrument as a whole, it is worth noting that this order is part of a much wider legislative programme to provide a smooth transition to the new police and fire services in Scotland. Indeed, 15 other instruments have been laid to date in the Scottish Parliament, and I understand that 10 more are planned, while a related order, the Scottish Administration (Offices) Order 2012 (SI 2012/3073) was considered by Her Majesty in Council and subsequently laid before this Parliament on 19 December 2012.

Work on this consequential order has been undertaken by more than 20 departments within the United Kingdom Government, the Scottish Government, the Northern Ireland Executive and the Welsh Assembly Government, who have agreed that the provisions in this order are necessary to ensure the effective operation of the new police and fire services in Scotland and the continuation of effective relationships with their partners throughout the UK. With the 2012 Act completing its passage through the Scottish Parliament only in June last year, agreement on the policy and the drafting of the instrument has been concluded at an excellent pace, with great credit to all those involved across the different Governments.

It is also fair to point out that neither coalition party in the Government here at Westminster was supportive of the measure when it went through the Scottish Parliament. Indeed, my party opposed it and the Conservative Party abstained. Nevertheless, I believe that it is consistent with the spirit and mutual respect that we give effect to an Act properly passed by the Scottish Parliament. Indeed, it was passed by 101 votes to six with 14 abstentions. I believe that it demonstrates the United Kingdom Government’s commitment to working with the Scottish Government to make the devolution settlement work. I hope that this Committee will agree that this order is a sensible use of the powers in the Scotland Act and that the practical result is an example of how we can make devolution work. I commend the order to the Committee. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Mar and Kellie]

My Lords, I am perfectly happy with what the Scottish Parliament has legislated for and I am happy with the order. I should like to record my surprise at the strategy of going for a national police force in Scotland. It certainly has been the tradition in Scotland and across the whole of Britain as an island that policing should be organised locally. At home, I have maps which point out where the Alloa borough police force was: it had a chief constable, a sergeant and 10 constables. The tradition in Britain has been one of local policing.

I also acknowledge that in another part of English-speaking Europe, in Ireland, that it always has had national policing. After 1922, the Royal Irish Constabulary was replaced by two national forces—the RUC and the Garda Siochana. I want to record the fact that I am surprised by the strategy which apparently we want to have in Scotland, while I am very happy about us having a strategy in Scotland.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, the Opposition support the measure, which as yet is another example of continuing devolution. I will not pay tribute to the Minister’s staff today because the last time I praised one of them, she mysteriously vanished and we have never seen her again. I do not know quite what he has done to her but I hope that she survives and makes a further appearance. The noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, has mentioned the Scottish tradition of policing but we all have to recognise devolution and its implications. There was a consultation process that was very supportive and there did not seem to be any dissenting voices to the proposal. As the Minister rightly says, this is necessary after the 2012 Act. I cannot quite remember the context in which he mentioned torture, but I do not think that that has relevance on this.

There are comparisons with other nations and regions of the United Kingdom—we all understand the Northern Ireland one—but the Scottish Government have considerable powers and I can understand why there are reservations about having a national police force against a background of the police always being regionally organised. I was on the police and fire committee of Strathclyde regional council, which has a very good operation. The Minister mentioned that there were 14 abstentions in the Scottish Parliament—I presume that that was his own party, or did the Liberal Democrats vote against? I welcome the conversion and hope that we can have further co-operation like that.

Although the report is rightly subject to scrutiny and questioning, I want to develop a wee bit further the principle of disaffection. As a trade unionist, the word “disaffection” towards anything raises questions. It has been mentioned that some of the clarification that the Minister’s staff was able to pass on was on questions asked by the committee regarding who could be charged with disaffection. The initial reply seemed to indicate that only certain police could be charged with disaffection, but further clarification suggested that it could apply to a member of the public as well. Although I totally accept the Minister’s point that the Government do not envisage anyone being charged with this wrongly, unfairly, or whatever, he will know better than I do that legal history is full of people who have been prosecuted for offences for which at the time it was indicated they would not be prosecuted. So, I would like further clarification on disaffection because the police are different. It is acknowledged that they are not allowed to join trade unions. We have to have law and order and a legal system, so it is right that in case anybody tries to suborn or undermine the police in carrying out their duties, the defence should stay in.

I press the Minister to go a bit further in giving us assurances that no “innocent bystanders” who have had a pint too much on a Saturday night and preach treason—I have certainly done that myself a few times with pints of soda water and lime, I hasten to add—will be prosecuted. I seek assurances that ordinary members of the public, letting off steam—to use one of the expressions mentioned—will not be liberally prosecuted. I will leave it at that and hope that the Minister can give us some of those answers. That will reassure me.

Forestry Commissioners (Climate Change Functions) (Scotland) (Consequential Modifications) Order 2012

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Earl of Mar and Kellie

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord the Minister, who, as usual, has made his staff available for any advice and/or assistance. I have a slight regret about the noble and learned Lord’s ever so polite attitude because, being used to another place, I sometimes like a wee bit of aggression but I am still waiting for the Minister to show that quality.

Turning to the legislative context, where in Scotland did the push for this come from? Although I do not stay near a lot of forest, nevertheless it is quite a big issue in some parts of Scotland. Why was this initiative taken, and what was the background to it? The policy background mentions wind farms. That is not an uncontroversial issue. I was wondering how that came about.

I have always tended to suspect the reporting of consultations because it is usually in the eye of the beholder, who wants a particular result. What is the current position on the consultation? Is it completely finished or are there still ramifications because people are making complaints or expressing their support? Is it still an issue? In addition, it is stated that a number of the concerns that were expressed have been addressed. Does the Minister know the specific issues that were identified and then responded to? Can he give an indication of how the consultation was handled? Was it just an exercise from on high or was there a definite consultation?

Paragraph 10 of the Explanatory Memorandum is headed “Impact” and states:

“This instrument has no impact of a regulatory nature”,

and goes on to say that the,

“impact on the public sector is insignificant”.

The one thing missing from that is public opinion. If it was insignificant, that is fine, but if there was a reaction, it would be a crucial factor. I would like to know if there were any expressions of public opinion. Is that the reason why a full impact assessment was not produced?

Although paragraph 12 states that the:

“Forestry Commission Scotland publishes an Annual Report and Accounts which is laid before the Scottish Parliament”,

is that the scope of the accountability? I know about devolution, but is there any further scope for the Westminster Government to be consulted? In short, is the whole issue of accountability now devolved to the Scottish Parliament? Obviously this is a comparatively minor arrangement, but never the less it is right to ask questions here in your Lordships’ Chamber and thus subject the order to a bit of gentle scrutiny.

[The Earl of Mar and Kellie]

My Lords, speaking as a backwoodsman, I approve of giving explicit powers to one of the largest landowners in Scotland and thereby removing all the Forestry Commission land from the renewables area. I certainly approve of the widening of the geographic scope for renewables, especially as it takes the pressure off other areas that may be more beautiful and which are worth retaining in that context. The order considerably widens the already broad remit of the Forestry Commission, which is now far wider than its remit in 1919, which was to produce timber. The commission will now get involved with leisure, recreation, health, landscape management, footpaths, cycle paths, biodiversity, wood fuel and still, indeed, the production of timber. I support all forms of renewable energy, and especially hydro. I am pleased to see that two hydro schemes have already been identified. I would encourage the commissioners to have another look at small-scale hydro projects on the hill burns. I also suspect that they are bound to put up some wind turbines, or allow a partner to put them up.

My final point is particularly related to that. Once a site has been established, it is grid-connected pretty much for all time. It is hoped that the generating technology may well improve and something other than wind farms will come to take their place. The important point is that the sites themselves are grid-connected.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords—