Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Bill

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 8th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I very much agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Haselhurst, just said about the Archives. There are real risks in maintaining them in their present physical location.

As has been noted by the noble Baroness the Leader of the House and my noble friend Lord Newby, I served on the Joint Committee on the restoration and renewal of the Palace of Westminster, the report of which was published in September 2016, almost three years ago. That paved the way for the Bill before us today, via resolutions that were passed by each House of Parliament in the early weeks of 2018.

I have a vivid memory of the day before that Joint Committee first sat in September 2015 of visiting the internal works in the basement of the Palace of Westminster. I was struck by the state of the mechanical and electrical services and rapidly concluded that doing nothing, kicking the can down the road, was not an option. Indeed, that was very much the conclusion that the Joint Committee came to. It identified an overwhelming need for the works to go ahead, and that they should be undertaken most effectively by a full decant of the Palace of Westminster. The Joint Committee made recommendations about the governance, especially for a sponsor body comprising Members of both Houses as well as external members, and a delivery authority with necessary technical expertise, and about the necessity for clear accountability for Parliament to be responsive to the requirements of the public, staff and Members.

These recommendations are largely reflected in the Bill before us. There has of course been the addition of the estimates commission and an understanding of the inevitable sensitivity about cost and the monitoring of it. I suspect that is probably a worthwhile addition to the Bill.

One of the other things we reflected on was timing, and we tried to convey a sense of urgency in that report. Admittedly, we did not anticipate the 2017 general election, but the noble Baronesses, Lady Stowell and Lady Smith of Basildon, and the noble Lord, Lord Carter of Coles, will recall that we had in mind that all who were elected in what we then thought would be a 2020 general election should have an opportunity to speak in the House of Commons before decant, and that those who were elected in the 2025 general election should have the opportunity to speak in the actual House of Commons after Parliament returned.

I am not quite sure what kind of timeline is anticipated now, but we took the view that, because of the deteriorating condition of the Palace of Westminster, the R&R programme should begin at the earliest possible date. I note Clause 1(3), which I think is faithful to the terms of the resolutions passed by both Houses. It says,

“the functions under this Act in relation to the works must be exercised with a view to facilitating the return of that House to the Palace of Westminster as soon as is reasonably practicable”.

That is a very welcome sentiment, but we are entitled to ask what it is anticipated that it will mean in practice. When replying to the debate, could the noble Earl the Deputy Leader of the House tell us the current thinking on the timeline?

I was somewhat alarmed by paragraph 160 of the report of the Joint Committee on the draft Bill, which rehearses some of the difficulties and possible delays in the Northern Estate programme, with particular reference to Richmond House and the Ministry of Defence car park. It refers to,

“delay (possibly resulting in decant being postponed for several years, until 2028)”.

In other words, it suggests the possibility of the decant starting just around the time that the Joint Committee on which I served thought we would be coming back into the Palace of Westminster. Given the risks of staying on this building—the risks of incremental failure and the risk of a significant failure—it would be useful to hear what is being done to try to tackle and reduce some of these possible delays, not least in relation to Richmond House and the Ministry of Defence car park.

Another issue of great importance is parliamentary accountability. Of course, the real clients are the public—the citizens of the United Kingdom—who wish not only to preserve our heritage but to see a Parliament that is fit for purpose in the 21st century. However, we also know that day to day, in practical terms, the Members of both Houses—who, as the noble Lord, Lord Cope, said, have some pretty strong views on things and do not hesitate to make them known—have the potential to be quite demanding as this project proceeds. That is why it is important that we have a sponsor body.

Sir David Natzler, the former Clerk of the House of Commons, in his evidence to the Joint Committee on the draft Bill, indicated that Sir Charles Barry had had to appear before over 100 parliamentary committees because there was not a sponsor body; my noble friend Lord Newby and the noble Lord, Lord Cope, referred to Mr Barry’s War and the importance of being able to channel and focus the legitimate concerns and interests of Members of each House. It is important that each House balances accountability and oversight on one hand with not wanting to micromanage on the other. We should let the bodies that we are creating with this Bill get on with the job.

Clause 6(2) of the Bill provides for the possibility of a parliamentary relationship agreement; the content of that agreement will be important. Paragraph 103 of the Joint Committee report on the draft Bill recommends that,

“parliamentary members of the Sponsor Body should be responsible for answering parliamentary questions”,

and that that should be dealt with in the parliamentary relationship agreement rather than in the Bill. Again, it would be helpful if we could get some indication as to the current thinking on this. Is it, for example, as with the Church Commissioners in the other place or the Senior Deputy Speaker here, who often are able to come to be Dispatch Box and answer on behalf of other bodies? It might be useful to have a member of the sponsor body who is a Member of your Lordships’ House, who would be identified as the person who perhaps responded to debates or Questions when they were raised by Members.

As regards the duties on the sponsor board, I welcome the duty specified in Clause 2(4)(h); the noble Baroness the Leader of the House indicated that that was brought in by amendment in the other place and that the Government will wish to reflect on it. On the one hand, we do not want to become too specific, but it is important that we try to find ways in which the benefits—the work that will be created for small and medium-sized enterprises—can be shared across the United Kingdom. Also, we should look in particular at the importance of and the opportunity for apprenticeships, particularly in specialist skills in the heritage and conservation sector. That was brought home to us very much on the Joint Committee. To be able to train people up in these specialist skills would be a worthwhile legacy, but not to do it could lead to delays and bottlenecks. Therefore, as paragraph 306 of the Joint Committee report said in September 2016:

“Conducting the works in one phase will make a significant demand on market capacity … A wide range of specialist trades will be required in a short space of time, and the Delivery Authority will need to be able to be capable of managing a large and complex supply chain”.


Therefore I very much hope that, while it may be going too far to specify apprenticeships in the Bill, nevertheless we will get some acknowledgement of the importance of that and of addressing the need for specialist skills, which has been identified. Perhaps some indication could also be given as to what has already been done to deal with market engagement.

There is a huge challenge here: value for money, and balancing heritage with practicability and legitimate issues such as access. However, as the Public Accounts Committee of the other place said in its 45th report, we should be getting on with it. The most efficient thing is to get on with it. That is what I hope we will do, and why I hope we will give the Bill a good passage through your Lordships’ House.

Leaving the European Union

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said, the withdrawal agreement contains a legally binding commitment to use best endeavours and to ensure that we negotiate in good faith. There will be a mechanism for resolving disputes, first through consultation at the joint committee, with the aim of reaching a mutually acceptable resolution. If that does not work, after three months either party can refer a dispute to independent arbitration. It is there in legally binding text, and that is how we believe both sides will go into the negotiation.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, will the noble Baroness the Leader of the House confirm that, if a matter is referred to independent arbitration and if any issue of European Union law should arise, it should be referred to the Court of Justice of the European Union for a binding ruling, with the arbitration panel obliged to settle a dispute in accordance with the ruling given by the CJEU? That makes a nonsense of saying that the CJEU will not have any relevance after Brexit.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The arbitration panel would be the body to consider, decide and resolve disputes. The panel will consider a dispute, make a ruling based on findings of fact and reach conclusions on questions of law or of interpretation of the agreement, other than on points of EU law. If the panel decides that there is a question of EU law which requires interpretation, it will submit a question to the CJEU, but it is for the panel alone to decide whether to refer that question or not, and the resolution of the dispute remains solely with the arbitration panel.

Palace of Westminster: Restoration and Renewal

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Tuesday 6th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, when on a number of occasions in recent years I have shown visitors around this iconic building, I was always struck by just how impressed they were by the place in which we work and how often they said that it was good of me to give my time to do it. To that, I usually said that it is actually very good for us to do it because it means that we do not get blasé about the place in which we have the privilege to work. It is important that we are able to share this building with those who visit us because it does not belong to those of us who at any particular time have the good fortune to be a Member of the House of Lords or the House of Commons—rather, we are custodians of this building. We hold it in trust for the people and for future generations. That is the spirit in which we should approach the decision before us today.

As a member of the Joint Committee, I join the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, in thanking the clerks and officials who give us enormous help and support. As a member of the committee, I very much welcome the decisive vote of the House of Commons last Wednesday. I calculate that it was almost 54%, and that is a mandate for decant meaning decant. The House of Commons essentially endorsed the recommendations of the Joint Committee, admittedly 17 months after the report and, significantly, five and half years since both Houses published a report outlining the significant extent of the works required and the risks associated with not tackling the work in a coherent and timely manner.

When I was appointed to the committee, I was not sure what course its work would take and what kind of recommendations we would come up with, but having had a tour of the basement the day before the committee had its first meeting in September 2015 and seen for myself the state of the mechanical and electrical services, I was in no doubt that doing nothing or kicking the can further down the road was not an option. I do not think words can convey the full extent of the risks and hazards to be found when water pipes lie next to electricity cables of varying ages and states of decay in proximity to steam pipes, not to mention telephone cables and IT cabling. As my noble friend Lord Newby said, the large sewage pipe that runs the whole length of the building was put in in 1888. We also heard about asbestos. It is known about in some places, but its full extent is probably not known. There are probably some places in which asbestos will be found when the work starts. That makes it very important that the renovation work goes ahead very carefully and sensitively. Noble Lords who have not seen the basement for themselves and who still entertain some reservations about embarking on a course of restoration and renewal should take the opportunity to go down and see what is there.

There are risks. There are risks of incremental failures and there is a risk of significant failure, which is why I think getting the work started in 2025 is probably too far away. The longer that we do not take action, the greater the risk of something happening. The Joint Committee carefully scrutinised the options. We believe that spinning the work out over several decades would not only be impracticable but would probably be the most costly means of going about it. The noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, spoke graphically about building organs outwith the body and what would happen if we decanted in Houses. In addition, no doubt the precedent of the post-war period would be raised, and I am sure we can envisage a situation where the Commons would think it quite appropriate that when it decanted into your Lordships’ Chamber we would go elsewhere and we would stay elsewhere while the Commons went back to their Chamber on completion. I doubt whether our generosity would be reciprocated.

Clearly, but subject to further validation, as we indicated, the most cost-effective way for the work to be completed by the proposed delivery authority is a complete decant of the Palace of Westminster during the period of the works. It is important to emphasise that this is just the Palace, because it does not affect other parts of the Parliamentary Estate, where Members could remain.

That then raised the question of where we should go, on a temporary basis. It is important to stress that too, because I recall that when our committee was meeting, a number of people expressed concerns that once we went, we would never get back in. This Motion makes it very clear that this is a temporary matter and that Parliament will return to our respective Chambers once the work is completed. We had many meetings looking at the options as to where we could go—I recall at one point the idea of floating Chambers on the Thames. But for your Lordships’ House—subject to further feasibility work—I was satisfied that the Queen Elizabeth II Centre was the best option for accommodating the Chamber, core functions of our work, committee rooms and some Member accommodation. Importantly, it would still allow access for members of the public to see what we were about. Of course, it will be less convenient than what we have at the moment, and will mean perhaps adjusting the times we have for Divisions—electronic voting, which I might prefer having had experience of it in the Scottish Parliament, was not something we as a committee felt able to entertain, as it was a bit beyond our remit. We may not have the dining rooms, and the Library may be less appealing and less extensive than what we have now, but it is a small price to pay for enabling the work to go ahead.

Reference has already been made to the proposed delivery authority and further validation of the conclusions which the Joint Committee reached. We were very fortunate to have the services of both the noble Lords, Lord Deighton and Lord Carter, on our committee to give us advice on the governance arrangements as we move forward. That was an important part of our recommendations to ensure that the works are carried out effectively, to time and to budget. The sponsor board will represent people from both Houses, to ensure that the interests of Parliament continue to be represented. The delivery authority will initially be charged with validating the Joint Committee’s recommendations and submitting designs, budgets and schedules for further parliamentary approval, and then for carrying out the works.

One other issue that engaged us was the scope of the work. Do we just do the bare minimum or is it an opportunity to equip our Parliament for the 21st century? We were very clear that cost-effectiveness was an important consideration. But we were also clear that it was important as we go forward into the future that the public have proper access to their legislators. Then there was the issue of disability access—not only for mobility but to improve arrangements for those who have visual or aural impairment. This was brought home to me by the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, who talked about how many of our committees are not particularly well adapted for people who have hearing difficulties. It is also an opportunity for us to incorporate the best environmental standards and to take effective energy conservation measures, while ensuring of course that we have proper regard for security. There are also opportunities, as the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, indicated, for small and medium-sized enterprises —not just those in the London area—to take part and to engage in some of the work that will be done, as well as for creating apprenticeships.

One of the moments I remember as we were considering the scope was when representatives from the Parliamentary Press Gallery gave evidence to us. We asked them about the scope and what would happen. Mr Grew is reported at paragraph 246 as saying:

“You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t. You will face criticism from the press if you decide to spend money to refurbish the building for the 21st Century. Similarly, if it falls down, you will probably face even greater criticism. It is a political decision that will take with it the consequences that come with political decisions”.


He went on to say that if Parliament were only to conduct the bare minimum of works required, it would,

“be missing the biggest opportunity in a century to remake, reform and reshape the building to make it fit ... future proofing is the way to go”.

I congratulate the noble Baroness the Leader of the House on bringing forward today’s Motion to us so promptly after the Commons voted. It allows us that opportunity to take the important steps to moving to a 21st-century Parliament.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, as many noble Lords have already indicated, at one level this is indeed a technical Bill. If we are to leave the European Union, there is a legal and practical necessity to have continuity and certainty. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, has just articulated so clearly and forcefully, it is impossible to ignore the context in which this legislation comes before us. Given its technical necessity, it is only fair that we ask whether it actually delivers in providing continuity and legal certainty. We have already heard the view of your Lordships’ Constitution Committee that as it stands it is constitutionally unacceptable.

Perhaps one of the clearest clauses in the Bill is Clause 1:

“The European Communities Act 1972 is repealed on exit day”.


That got me thinking. The European Communities Act 1972, a much shorter piece of legislation than this, has in fact stood the test of time. Yes, there has been litigation, but over 45 years it has performed its function remarkably well, notwithstanding the changes that have taken place since then. I dare anyone to suggest that the Bill that we are currently debating is anywhere near as robust and fit for purpose for such a major constitutional change. Its shortcomings will be well-rehearsed in this debate and scrutinised during its passage through your Lordships’ House, but I want to make a few remarks about it in relation to the devolution settlement. Here the Bill not only fails to deliver certainty; it undermines the certainty of that settlement, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, forensically demonstrated in his contribution.

I believe the Bill turns the architecture of devolution on its head, more through a lack of proper thought and sensitivity than through malign intent. It also shows little respect for the devolved Administrations or for parity of esteem, which now seems to be out of the window. The structure of devolution in Scotland, as set out in the Scotland Act 1998, is that everything is devolved unless expressly reserved. That situation has stood the test of time. However, here we have proposals created by the Bill, especially Clause 11, where, in areas that otherwise fall entirely within devolved competence, extensive powers to amend retained European Union law fall to United Kingdom Ministers, rather than to the devolved Administrations.

I turn to two pieces of evidence given to your Lordships’ Constitution Committee. First, Professor Richard Rawlings of University College London said:

“At one and the same time, Westminster and Whitehall are freed up to shape a post-Brexit world in crucial respects, and the devolved institutions are locked down and required to wait for partial release”.


Secondly, Professor Tom Mullen of Glasgow University argues that Clause 11 alters,

“the framework of the devolution settlements by replacing a cross-cutting constraint on devolved competence with what is effectively a new set of reservations. It would also overlay the current reserved powers model of devolution with a conferred powers model in relation to retained EU law. This is not a mere technicality; rather the reserved powers model is a central element of the constitutional strength of the current devolution arrangements”.

These are quite bold statements from constitutional experts that go to the heart of what is wrong with the Bill as currently constituted.

While we will obviously deal with these matters regarding the structure of Clause 11, there are a number of other points that we will want to look at as your Lordships’ House considers the Bill in Committee. There is the apparent failure to recognise the statutory delay between a Bill passing in the Scottish Parliament and receiving Royal Assent, which is relevant for references to enactments in the Bill. Why is it that Scottish Ministers have some powers to deal with deficiencies in retained European Union law, but not if it is a deficiency in direct EU legislation, which is left solely for UK Ministers? No explanation has been given as to why that difference is made. Why are sweeping powers for UK Ministers found in Clauses 7 and 8 subject to a sunset provision, but apparently not the powers in Clauses 10 and 11, and in Schedule 2, which relate to powers relating to the devolved Administrations? Why is there a sunset clause for one set of powers and not for those that deal with the devolved Administrations? Absence of sufficient requirements for, or consultation with or consent from, Scottish and Welsh Ministers in devolved areas adds up to a disregard for the idea of parity of esteem.

The Government have accepted, and the noble Baroness the Leader of the House has said again today, that Clause 11 is deficient, and they have promised amendments. It is important that we know, as the Bill progresses, when we are likely to see these amendments. A legislative consent Motion is not a legal requirement, but we should all know that it is very much a political requirement if devolution and the fabric of our United Kingdom are to remain.

I believe we could have an opportunity to have a silver lining to the dark cloud of Brexit and do some things better in our arrangements with the devolved Administrations. The Welsh Assembly Government have floated the idea of joint ministerial committees on a statutory footing. We need ways to find better dispute resolution mechanisms than we have at the moment under the memorandums of understanding.

In its report on the Bill, the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee of the House of Commons, reflecting on Clause 11, said in its first report:

“A set of effective relationships based on mutual trust and effective communication and consultation are essential for the internal governance of the UK, following its departure from the European Union”.


I fear that the Bill as it stands does little to foster mutual trust. It suggests that there has been ineffectual communication and its drafting is conspicuously lacking in provision for consultation. In our deliberations and scrutiny, I believe we can start to make amends by making amendments.

European Council

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We certainly are working closely with our European partners and are committed to playing our full part in tackling the shared challenges posed by the global migration crisis. As the Statement said, we are committed to maintaining a maritime presence in the Mediterranean. The Royal Navy has intercepted 172 smuggling boats and saved more than 12,000 lives since Operation Sophia began. We are continuing the deployment of the Border Force cutter to the central Mediterranean to support the search and rescue activities under Operation Triton. To date, cutters have rescued more than 13,000 migrants across the central Mediterranean and Aegean. We are taking our responsibilities extremely seriously and are working with the EU in terms of looking at where these migrants are coming from and trying to help stabilise states. We take this extremely seriously and will continue to work with the EU, the UN and international partners to make sure that we work together to tackle this problem, because together is the only way we will achieve it.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, in her Statement on 23 October, the Prime Minister referred to,

“a time-limited implementation period based on current terms”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/10/17; col. 25.]

Of course, today she has said that if we Brexit in March 2019, we would not be members of the European Union after that. To pick up on the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, if we fast forward two years from now to the annual Fisheries Council to determine total allowable catches, will there be a British Minister at the table to defend British fishing interests? How does the noble Baroness see this working?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As the Prime Minister says, it will depend on the next phase of negotiations, but currently we expect the implementation period to be two years.

Brexit: UK Plans

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Monday 9th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We are all hopeful that we will be able to move forward together in a constructive manner. That is certainly what we intend.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, how do the Government anticipate that the common fisheries policy will work out in relation to the United Kingdom during the transitional period?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We are committed to leaving the common fisheries policy and developing arrangements for fishing that can create a more profitable and self-sufficient seafood sector. Taking back control of our waters means that we can decide how we allocate access to our waters and our fisheries. Any decisions about giving access to vessels from the EU and other coastal states will be a matter for negotiation.

European Council

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My noble friend is right—I agree with that.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister’s statement made reference to working with the devolved Administrations as we move towards the exit negotiations. Can the Leader of the House indicate whether the UK Government intend to give a substantive response to the Scottish Government’s submission of December 2016 and, if so, when?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Scottish Government’s proposals have been considered in detail, including through the JMC process. In the last month, there have been a series of technical meetings on the content of the proposals. Officials in the Scottish Government have met UK specialists in trade, customs, the single market, law, devolution, and goods and services, so close working is going on.

Strathclyde Review

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Thursday 17th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank my noble friend for that question, and I can indeed confirm that.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, in welcoming the Statement, I take the opportunity to place on record my personal thanks to the noble Baroness’s predecessor, the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, and the Chief Whip, for the very constructive way in which they engaged with me on this issue when I was the leader of the Liberal Democrat Peers. I welcome the outcome that there has been, but I reinforce the call made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, to consider a Joint Committee. One of the frustrating things that noble Lords often feel—as, indeed, do Members of the other place—about statutory instruments is that it is take it or leave it; there is no chance to amend. I know that, during the course of discussions in evidence given to committees, there were some suggestions as to how it might be possible to devise some procedure which would allow amendment of statutory instruments. Very often, it is just one small part of the instrument that people feel aggrieved about. Would she be willing to take that on board and give serious consideration to it? We should not just let the thing finish here but consider other ways in which we can actually improve the scrutiny of statutory instruments?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Again, I am not going to make any promises that I cannot keep, but I am very happy to say that I want this House to work effectively and I want us to make sure that we use our expertise properly. I want to improve the processes that we have, if we can. I am happy to take that point away, but I cannot promise what the outcome will be.

G20 Summit

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement today. It was always going to be difficult following the Brexit vote, but as the new Prime Minister, Theresa May appeared confident. She met with most of the other world leaders who were interested to meet her—partly, I think, because they are keen to understand what the post-EU era means for them and their relationship with us in the UK. So this was, by any standards, a crucial summit. We are all aware that the vote to leave the EU has created considerable uncertainty here in the UK, but in paragraph 42 of the communiqué the international uncertainty is also clear. Despite some promising recent manufacturing statistics, the long-term uncertainties remain.

What is clear is that the Government are still thinking through the implications, what our negotiating position is going to be and what outcomes we seek. It is now common knowledge that no advance preparation had been undertaken, which makes the job of the Prime Minister even harder. She had to attend this summit knowing that she would be expected to discuss with other world leaders how the decision would affect them and their relationship with the EU and the UK. Countries such as Japan were seeking some degree of predictability for their investments and businesses in the UK, but she was unable to provide reassurance or answers—not because she does not want to be helpful or make the best case for the British economy but because we are still in the “don’t know” zone. While I appreciate what lies behind the statement “Brexit means Brexit”, I have to admit that I do not know what it means—and neither, apparently, do other members of the G20.

Following the Prime Minister’s meeting with her old university friend, the Australian Prime Minister, Malcolm Turnbull, I think that we were all left with the impression—I certainly was—of exciting new trade and economic agreements. But the clarification from Mr Ciobo, the Australian Trade Minister, has dampened that excitement. It almost sounded like a “Yes, Prime Minister” sketch as we heard him say on the “Today” programme that a UK-Australia deal could happen only,

“when the time is right”.

Sir Humphrey might have added “in the fullness of time” or “in due course”.

We cannot sign deals with other countries while we are still in the EU and we do not know when we will be leaving it. Meanwhile, negotiations between Australia and the EU will be completed probably before we even start. To heap humiliation upon embarrassment, the Australian Minister added that because the UK has no trained negotiators of our own, he has offered to lend us Australian experts for the initial talks. Can the noble Baroness confirm that what is really on offer is talks about talks? Will we accept their kind and generous offer to use their experts for our discussions with them?

Is the noble Baroness also able to say anything more about the meeting with the Japanese Prime Minister, following his 15-page memo on Japan’s specific concerns, and whether they discussed car manufacturing remaining in the UK whatever the Brexit terms are?

We understand why our allies are uncertain. I fear that there is a danger of us becoming marginalised. Meetings took place without us that in the past we might have expected to be part of, such as President Obama’s meeting with Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande. What is encouraging, though, is that these countries are not hostile. I think that they genuinely want to make their economic relationship with us work—but we have to get moving to create the certainty and clarity that they need.

It is not just our international friends who are uncertain. So are we—even, it appears, members of the Cabinet. On Monday, the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU, David Davis, responded to a question from Anna Soubry MP about whether, in light of the concerns raised at the G20 about the impact on the economy,

“the Government are prepared to abandon that membership of the single market”.

He told the House of Commons that,

“the simple truth is that if a requirement of our membership is giving up control of our borders, then I think that makes it very improbable”.—[Official Report, Commons, 5/9/16; col. 54.]

Those were the Secretary of State’s words: “very improbable”.

Now, I am not clear how he defines,

“giving up control of our borders”,

but he was quickly slapped down by No. 10, which said that this was his “opinion” and not “policy”. Yet, in your Lordships’ House yesterday, the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, responded to my noble friend Lord Wood, that the Government,

“are not in a position to go into detail on this other than to say that we are not looking at an off-the-shelf response”.—[Official Report, 5/9/16; col. 889.]

I am confused, and I do not think I am the only one. I thought that the Secretary of State was articulating government policy from the Dispatch Box—but apparently not. Can the noble Baroness confirm whether, when Ministers make statements in either House, the statements should be regarded as government policy—or can we now expect to hear private opinion as well? How will we be able to tell the difference?

Finally, the summit also discussed other issues, included terrorism and refugees, as referenced in the Statement. Paragraph 44 of the communiqué deals with refugees. I welcome that the Government signed up to the communiqué quote:

“We call for strengthening humanitarian assistance for refugees and refugee resettlement”.

The noble Baroness will have heard the exchanges in your Lordships’ House yesterday and again today about the grave disappointment with the Government’s actions to date on resettling those unaccompanied children who qualify to come to the UK under family reunification laws yet remain in the camps in Calais—in the Jungle.

Is she aware of the report today from UNICEF, which is highly critical of the UK Government because of the danger that these children are in? They are often traumatised by both the journey from their home country and by what they witnessed or suffered there. As the author of the UN report states, they are,

“at risk of the worst forms of abuse and harm and can easily fall victim to traffickers and other criminals”.

What can be more important than ensuring that these children, who are legally as well as morally entitled to safety and refuge in the UK, have that refuge? Does the noble Baroness consider that the Government now need to take faster and more effective action to fulfil both the Dubs amendment on child refugees, passed by this House while Theresa May was Home Secretary, and the agreement reached at the G20 summit?

I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to address these questions and that the Government truly understand how important clarity is and that uncertainty is the enemy of good government.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement this afternoon. The Prime Minister’s Statement and the G20 leaders’ communiqué clearly set out the challenges facing the global economy at this time. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, quoted, it goes on to state clearly:

“The outcome of the referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU adds to the uncertainty in the global economy”.

One wonders whether any of that uncertainty was dispelled by the numerous meetings that the Prime Minister had. She says that “Brexit means Brexit”, but I rather suspect that none of the other G20 leaders knows what it means; and as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, indicated, it appears that some members of the Cabinet do not know what it means either. When one hears that Downing Street spokespersons are dismissing a Secretary of State’s quotes as being personal rather than a statement of government policy, it suggests that the collective responsibility that we had in the coalition was a model that this Government ought to follow. Perhaps the noble Baroness the Leader of the House will take the opportunity now, and not rely on a No. 10 spokesperson, to make the position very clear with regard to the comments of the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU on Monday.

Since the result of the referendum in June, a number of Conservative Ministers have sought to give the impression that they could agree new trade deals in time for tea. The clear evidence from this summit is that that will simply not be the case. Although a number of world leaders have talked about maintaining good relations with the United Kingdom—which is very welcome—few gave the impression that a trade deal with the United Kingdom was a top priority for them. President Obama made it clear that a trade deal between the EU and the USA was a much greater priority. He was not the only world leader to take that position. The Japanese Government have released a detailed document setting out their concerns. Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has warned the Prime Minister that Japanese companies need more certainty in order to stay in the United Kingdom, and Japan’s ambassador to the United Kingdom has highlighted that Japanese companies could disinvest from our country.

The Prime Minister’s statement refers to the leaders of Mexico, South Korea, India and Singapore, who said that they would welcome talks on removing barriers to trade between our countries. That is very welcome, but can the Leader of the House give the House some context? What percentage of goods are exported from the UK to these four countries in total, compared with the percentage exported to one country, Germany, with which we would inevitably be raising trade barriers unless we enjoy full membership of the single market? Even Australia, the country from which the Prime Minister had the warmest welcome at the G20, has been clear that any post-Brexit deal with the UK would have to wait until Australia had completed parallel negotiations with the European Union, a process which will not even begin for another two and a half years at the earliest. I fear it is a long time since Britain has stood so alone on the world stage. Can the Leader of the House confirm that, at the summit, the Prime Minister did not hold a single bilateral meeting with any other Europe Union leader?

Will the noble Baroness take this opportunity to end the current uncertainty? Do we not owe it, globally and to companies here at home, to indicate what our position will be with regard to membership of the single market? Does she agree that securing such membership should be the Government’s priority rather than burdening British companies with additional red tape and compromising our position as a global economic nation?

We on these Benches are also deeply disappointed that the Prime Minister failed to raise the issue of steel exports with China during her bilateral meeting with President Xi Jinping. Thousands of jobs at Port Talbot, and across our steel industry, are facing an uncertain future because of dumping of steel on the EU market by China, but although it was raised in plenary, it does not appear that the Prime Minister took the opportunity to make the case in a bilateral meeting.

Although there has been much aspirational talk by Ministers of preferential trade deals, one is conscious that the only concrete, substantive trade deal that we have heard about since Parliament returned on Monday is the continuing supply of military equipment to Saudi Arabia. Can the noble Baroness tell the House what discussions the Prime Minister had with Saudi Ministers at the G20 regarding the position in Yemen and international humanitarian law? Will she clarify her Government’s definition of a “serious” breach of international humanitarian law?

With regard to other matters, the communiqué states a clear commitment to,

“usher in a new era of global growth and sustainable development, taking into account … the Paris Agreement”.

Given the news that China and the USA have now ratified the Paris Agreement, will the noble Baroness commit to the UK ratifying that agreement in line with our international partners? Will she also confirm whether or not it will require parliamentary approval under Section 20 of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 and, at the same time, whether the same parliamentary requirement applies to any Brexit agreement with the remaining EU?

The communiqué also states a clear commitment to,

“taking into account the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development”.

What action are this Government taking to ensure that the sustainable development goals are truly universal and that each government department is working towards these goals?

We on these Benches remain very concerned at the global refugee crisis. Given the attention given at the conference to the refugee crisis, will the noble Baroness be more specific about the Government’s objectives at the upcoming high-level meeting on refugees and migrants in New York later this month? Can she also answer the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, in relation to the some 380 children eligible to come to the UK who are currently in Calais?

We have heard in recent weeks that Brexit is Brexit, but we seem to be no closer to knowing what it actually means. From the briefings given on the Prime Minister’s plane, we know that it does not mean a points-based immigration system or that £350 million a week will be given to the National Health Service—that promise, given by those who are now senior members of the Conservative Government, is no longer worth the bus it was written on. There is much confusion from the Conservative Government, and in the face of that confusion, we on these Benches will continue to fight to keep Britain open, tolerant and united.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord for their remarks. Before I address some of the specific points, I will touch on some of the key elements of last week’s summit. First, as I said, we saw that the UK has, and will continue to have, a leading role in the international community, whether in championing work on antimicrobial resistance or pushing to deliver an economy that works for everyone. The summit showed that we are shaping the global agenda on many of the important challenges facing the world, and we will continue to do so.

Secondly, we saw that world leaders want to work constructively with us to make a success of Brexit. The Prime Minister outlined her vision for the UK as a global leader on free trade, and it was clear that there is a shared desire to build and maintain strong relationships with our international partners. Our priority now has to be to work through the issues posed by Brexit to deliver on that vision, and to get the right deal for Britain.

The noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord asked about the shape of this. We are looking at negotiating a new relationship with Britain. Noble Lords are right that the process will not be brief or straightforward, but we are looking to achieve the best deal. What the British people told us with their vote was that it must be a priority for us to regain more control over the numbers of people who come here from Europe, but also that we must allow British companies to trade with the single market in goods and services.

Both noble Lords asked about Japan’s approach. Of course we continue to listen to and engage with Japanese business and investors as we plan for our exit. In fact, since the G20 the Japanese ambassador has praised the,

“cautious and very patient”,

approach of the Prime Minister, and said that what is needed are,

“well-thought through considerations before you start any negotiations”.

That is exactly the approach that the Prime Minister has taken. The relationship between the UK and Japan has gone from strength to strength in recent years, and we believe it will continue to do so. The PM and the Prime Minister of Japan spoke and were both clear that they would work together to build our relationship. As was said in the Statement, as a member of the EU we will continue to support a swift conclusion to the EU-Japan free trade agreement, and co-operation on security with our European and global allies will be undiminished.

The noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord asked about unaccompanied children. I assure noble Lords that we began to work to implement the Dubs amendment immediately after the Immigration Bill gained Royal Assent. Discussions are happening with local authorities because this is a UK matter rather than a G20 one, but of course we are working with Greece, France, Italy and NGO partners to speed up existing processes and implement new ones where necessary.

The noble and learned Lord commented that the Prime Minister did not meet other EU leaders. As he will be well aware, over the summer she visited France, Germany and some of the key leaders. This was her first opportunity to meet President Obama, for example, so she took such opportunities at the G20 and that was the right approach.

The noble and learned Lord questioned the fact that the Prime Minister did not specifically raise steel with China. In fact she raised it with everyone; this was a key concern of ours, and in fact we were delighted to have secured a commitment from the G20 steel-producing nations to bring forward a global response to address overcapacity, including through the OECD Steel Committee, which will meet next week. That will provide the first opportunity, following the summit, to take stock of response efforts and discuss the feasibility of forming a global forum for dialogue and information sharing on overcapacity.

The noble and learned Lord asked about the Paris agreement. We are fully committed to ratifying it, and of course we were very pleased to see the commitment from both the United States and China during the course of the summit. We are already playing our part in delivering this through our domestic climate framework and we will ratify it as soon as possible, but all necessary work to implement the agreement is under way. I am sure we will refer to some of the other issues that the noble Lords raised later in the debate, but if there is anything else I can add subsequently I will do so.

To conclude, I reinforce what the Prime Minister said in the other place: the best route to prosperity for this country is as a global leader in free trade, but to carry people along with us we must deliver and demonstrate the benefits of that approach for people right across the country. As a Government, that is exactly what we will do. We will act boldly at home so that our economy works for everyone, and we will work with our international partners abroad, shaping an ambitious global role for this country that will deliver prosperity for our citizens and those around the world in years to come.

Tributes: Baroness D'Souza and Lord Laming

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2016 Lords Chamber

In paying this tribute to both the noble Lord, Lord Laming, and the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, we also pass on our thanks and gratitude to them, look forward to their work in future and wish their successors the same kind of success. They have our full support.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition in paying tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, on behalf of the Liberal Democrat Benches, and to give our thanks to her for the dignity with which she discharged her duties as Lord Speaker. It is, of course, a comparatively new post and, building on the foundations laid by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, has developed and shaped the office during her time in that role.

The noble Baroness performed her ceremonial roles with considerable dignity. I always thought that she found exactly the right words whenever welcoming and thanking visiting dignitaries. The fact that both the noble Baroness the Leader of the House and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, talked about her outreach work, shows the stamp she put on the office. She ensured that the office of Lord Speaker did not focus inward on your Lordships’ Chamber but was outward facing. She developed an extensive outreach programme with the public. She spoke with many civil society and educational groups, attended countless public meetings across the country to describe the work of the House, and continued and expanded the innovative Peers in Schools programme, reaching out to schools far and wide.

She also sought to bring the outside world into Parliament. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, reminded us of the visit of President Jimmy Carter. For me, it was a most memorable event. Her decision to invite him was significant because he was willing to accept. I do not know whether it was cunning or inadvertence on her part, but the initial invitation to us was just to a lecture by President Carter. It was only on the day that I realised that the subject was to be the eradication of Guinea worm disease. I must confess that I did not expect to be quite so fascinated by a parasitic infection. This lecture, given as part of the Lord Speaker’s global lecture series, demonstrated again the commitment of the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, to strengthening links between Parliament and the wider community outside. This has been complemented by her work in strengthening the relationships of this House with many Parliaments overseas.

She had the challenge, if I may put it like that, of chairing the House Committee. I wonder how many former members of the committee share my view that her initiative in the last six months of her term in hosting the meetings in her rooms, accompanied by refreshment, boosted their productivity and seemed to shorten them.

Throughout her tenure as Lord Speaker, the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, fiercely sought to safeguard the reputation of this House at a time of increased scrutiny. At our regular meetings we often discussed our shared interest in upholding the good standing of this House and working through a number of difficult issues to find the best solutions for the House and all its Members. It is with much affection that, on behalf of these Benches, I wish her very well as she stands down from the role.

I also pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Laming, for stepping into the role of Chairman of Committees at what was, we recall, a difficult time for your Lordships’ House. As they say, a volunteer is worth 10 pressed men or women. The noble Lord was always assiduous in his role, seeking to work in a most consensual way for the benefit of the House. His courtesy, respect for colleagues, attention to detail and steady guidance have been of considerable benefit, and he has always taken care to fully understand the issues. Again, I extend our warmest and heartfelt thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Laming, and wish him well in his chairmanship of the new Services Committee, to which he brings considerable experience.

I also welcome the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, to the post of Senior Deputy Speaker. We go back many years to our time together in the House of Commons, and I know that that post is in secure hands. I also welcome our new Lord Speaker, the noble Lord, Lord Fowler. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, reminded us, he is the first man to hold the post. The noble Lord’s election demonstrated that he has the overwhelming confidence of this House and I wish him very well indeed in his new role.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, perhaps I may be permitted to add a few words from these Benches, as both of those to whom we are paying tribute this afternoon were previously Convenors of the Cross-Bench group and it is to this group that they have both now returned.

The noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, came to the Cross Benches when she was made a Member of this House in July 2004. Her warm and generous personality made an immediate impact, and it came as no surprise when she was elected Convenor only three years later, in 2007, in succession to Lord Williamson of Horton. She held that position for nearly four years until her election as Lord Speaker in 2011. Then it was the noble Lord, Lord Laming, who was elected by the Cross Benchers to take her place as their Convenor. When he retired after serving his full term of four years, he must have thought—as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, suggested—that the time had come for him to take a back seat and lead a quieter life. But, of course, those who were wondering who was best suited to take over as Chairman of Committees at a critical time had other ideas. We were so very fortunate that the noble Lord was willing to be persuaded to fill the gap. No one was better suited to do this than he was.

I well remember the day when the noble Baroness contributed her own words as Convenor to the farewell to the Law Lords when the appellate jurisdiction of this House came to an end in July 2009. We the Law Lords were all sitting that day on the Cross Benches as members of her group for the last time before we were disqualified on our move to the Supreme Court. We appreciated her kind words very much. For me, four years of disqualification followed. So I was unavoidably absent for the rest of her convenorship, for the first two years of her time as Lord Speaker, and for the first two years of the noble Lord’s time as Convenor. However, when I came back in the summer of 2013 I was able to see them both in action.

It struck me at that time, and has been borne in on me even more now, that we expect an awful lot of our Lord Speaker. It seemed to me that her position on the Woolsack, although always dignified, was a rather lonely one. As others have said, her real contribution to the House has been in the work she has done outside the Chamber. For many of your Lordships much of what she did there was not obvious, but it has been my privilege during the past year to see quite a lot of her. I had regular meetings with her when she was Convenor, attended functions over which she presided and saw her work as chairman of the House Committee and as a member of the Procedure Committee and the Committee for Privileges. On each of these occasions she played an important and valuable role, always putting the needs of the House before all other considerations.

As for the functions, I remember the great ones, which included the addresses in the Royal Gallery by the President of China and the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, over which she and the Speaker presided, as well as the more intimate ones on her own in the Reading Room, particularly the one that both the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, mentioned, when Jimmy Carter came to talk to us about his work to eradicate the Guinea worm disease. My recollection of that event is that she took the risk at the end of the lecture of asking whether anyone had any questions on what he had been talking about. Anyone who has chaired a lecture knows how risky that can be. I still remember the look on her face when a wholly irrelevant and really rather naughty question was asked by a journalist: “Trump or Clinton, who will it be?”. That was six months ago, long before we knew who the final candidates would be, and I remember the look of sheer relief on her face when Jimmy Carter dealt with the cheeky question head on, generously and at length, instead of refusing to answer it—although, of course, skilled politician that he is, he did not really answer the question.

The noble Baroness did us proud on these occasions, charming our visitors with her grace and the warmth of her welcome. There were hard times for her, too, as the holder of any great public office must experience from time to time. Whatever she felt inside, she bore them with remarkable courage and fortitude. We have much to be grateful for. All of us on the Cross Benches wish the noble Baroness well on her retirement from the many responsibilities that she has borne so well. We look forward very much indeed to welcoming her back to these Benches, where she still has so much to contribute.

We welcome, too, the return to these Benches of the noble Lord, Lord Laming. Let us be clear that it is certainly not because of what he has done that the role of Chairman of Committees has been reformed. He brought to that office a charming mixture of kind, self-deprecating humour and quiet efficiency. Committee meetings under his chairmanship, for which he always prepared very carefully, were always a pleasure and he struck exactly the right tone when presenting his committee’s reports to the House. We have much to be grateful for and I know that I have the support of all of those who are with me on the Cross Benches when I say how much we appreciate what he has done in that role. As has already been said, we are very fortunate indeed that he has agreed to serve from these Benches as the first chairman of the Services Committee as it settles into its new responsibilities. So, as I am sure he knows only too well, the work that he is doing for the House is not yet over.

On behalf of these Benches I also extend a very warm welcome to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, as our new Lord Speaker and to the noble Lord, Lord McFall, in his new role looking after the committee system, which has been so carefully reformed. We look forward very much indeed to working with them both in the future.