Scotland: Independence

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Thursday 1st March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Touhig]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the First Minister of Wales on the issue of a referendum on Scottish independence.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

My Lords, first, I am sure that noble Lords from other parts of the United Kingdom will wish to join me in extending to Welsh noble Lords our warmest greetings and best wishes on St David’s Day.

The Government have had no formal discussions with the Welsh Government on the issue of a referendum on Scottish independence.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his St David’s Day greeting; it is most welcome to those of us who spend much of our working lives as missionaries in England.

The future of the United Kingdom is not a matter that can be left to negotiations between Her Majesty’s Government and the Scottish Government alone. Any change in the status of any of the nations of our union must affect us all. The people of Wales—and, indeed, the people of Northern Ireland—are not mere spectators in all this. Wales’s First Minister has proposed holding a constitutional convention so that we can redefine what a modern United Kingdom should look like. What do the Government think about that idea? If such a convention is held, should it not be held before the Scots hold their referendum?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, we are faced with the position where the Scottish Government have said that they wish to proceed with a referendum. We have serious doubts as to the legality of that; that is why we have proposed in our consultation document that we should engage with the Scottish Government to see whether we can get an appropriate order to allow such a referendum to take place on a legitimate basis.

However, it has been accepted by successive Administrations that no part of the United Kingdom should be forced to stay within the United Kingdom against its wishes. That is why, first and foremost, the Government wish to ensure that we succeed in winning the referendum for Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom; but I wholly accept that any other arrangements for how powers may be distributed within our United Kingdom have implications for all parts of it. Therefore, the more we can discuss it among different parts of the United Kingdom, the better.

[Lord Roberts of Conwy]

My Lords, bearing in mind that it was this Government who set up the Silk commission to review the case for devolving fiscal powers to the National Assembly for Wales and further constitutional changes—with high expectations, I might say, of positive outcomes—is not the devolution process now becoming an open road to greater independence, which very few Welsh people want: in fact, only 7 per cent of them, according to the latest BBC/ICM poll?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I thank my noble friend for drawing attention to that poll, which shows that the wish for independence in Wales is very much a minority interest. He is right to draw attention to the Silk commission. The first part of it will look at the fiscal powers and whether there should be greater accountability in the way in which money is raised by the Welsh Government and the Welsh Parliament. Thereafter, it will look at the other powers. I cannot accept that devolution will lead to independence. Rather, I think it is important that, where people have their own domestic agenda, they should be able to order its priorities, be it in the Welsh Assembly, the Northern Ireland Assembly or the Scottish Parliament.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that an opinion poll published by the BBC today shows that some 80 per cent of the people of Wales support the independent NHS policy being followed by the Government of Wales, and does he accept that it is in the context of the substance of policy that these matters should be judged? Is he aware that the First Minister of Wales suggested at the British-Irish Council meeting of 13 January in Dublin that there might be a role for this second Chamber of Parliament in a quasi-federal United Kingdom? Can he say whether the Government have ruled out that possibility in the Bill that may be forthcoming in the next Session and whether the Long Title of that Bill could facilitate such a consideration?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I have seen a number of the details of the poll published this morning by the BBC, which shows an overwhelming opposition to independence. As I indicated in answering questions on Tuesday, your Lordships’ House will continue to give the scrutiny that it has given since 1999 to non-devolved matters, and I expect that to be the case in any reformed House.

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, the Secretary of State for Wales, the right honourable Cheryl Gillan, has indicated that she may look at proposals to align Welsh Assembly constituencies with the new parliamentary constituencies, with 30 constituency seats and 30 list seats for the Assembly instead of the 40 constituency seats and 20 lists seats at present. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, said in reply to a question from me in Grand Committee on 22 November 2011 that no change would be made without proper consultation. Is there a date for such a consultation and have any discussions been had with the First Minister, Carwyn Jones? Does he agree with me that any changes to the Assembly boundaries must be made with the full consent of the Welsh people, through a referendum, in keeping with the spirit of devolution?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I cannot give any date that the noble Baroness seeks but I reaffirm the important principle of consultation, which must not be solely with the Welsh First Minister and the Welsh Government. Issues such as parliamentary constituencies inevitably involve a range of issues and, not least, the different political parties.

[Lord German]

My Lords, does it not behove us all, if we want to remain part of the United Kingdom, to make the case for the United Kingdom? Perhaps I might say in the comradely spirit that existed last Saturday that the English need to be aware that saying to people from the rest of the United Kingdom, “Shove off and do your own thing” is not the right approach. Can we make the case for what it really means to be members of the United Kingdom? What would my noble and learned friend place at the top of his list of reasons for why we should remain part of the United Kingdom?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I am sure that almost everyone in your Lordships’ House would wish to remain part of the United Kingdom, and it might be useful if we all thought about that question. I believe not only that we each benefit economically from belonging to a wholly integrated market of 60 million but that in celebrating and promoting a shared heritage and shared cultural, social and fundamental political values, and defending them effectively in an uncertain world, we are simply better off together.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, yes, the polls show an overwhelming rejection of separatism, but does the Minister agree that if the union is to be fostered, and if we want to have a real case for it, more must be done in the spirit of solidarity to tackle the levels of comparative poverty in Wales and the poor health of the people of Wales? Greater investment must be made in infrastructure: for example, in the railway lines west of Cardiff to show that Wales does not end at Cardiff.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, something that came over strongly to those of us serving on the Calman commission was that one of the strengths of the United Kingdom was not only its pooling of resources but its ensuring that, where parts of the United Kingdom are doing less well, we are able to address them because we have the strength of being part of one united kingdom.

[The Lord Bishop of Hereford]

My Lords, reference has been made to health service policy in Wales. Will the Minister give an assurance that, as Welsh responsibility in areas such as that are looked at, greater attention will be paid to the implications for cross-border issues, where a divergence of policy—for example, on the health service, on farming or on so many other issues—can create real problems and potential conflicts for those who live on the border between England and Wales?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I can say in response to the right reverend Prelate that from discussions with colleagues who are Peers or who represent constituencies in Wales, I am acutely aware that there are many cross-border issues, not least in the health service, with people living in certain parts of Wales going to hospitals in England. It is important that these cross-border issues are given proper attention, and I have no doubt that when the Silk commission goes into its second phase of looking at responsibilities, that will be an important consideration.